Cobalt Demo, A New Jumper’s Perspective

[foos 0]

I needed to figure out what gear to purchase. It was suggested I demo canopies so I could know firsthand what I liked. After reading Cobalt Dan’s comments I requested a Cobalt 170 Demo.
My Canopy Experience prior to Cobalt Demo:
Fury 245 (evil slammer deep bruising heh, 9 jumps, .87 loading)
Saber 210 (fun lot’s of flare power, 17 jumps, 1.02 loading)
Safire 209 (Nice Fun, Flare power less than the Saber, 17 jumps, 1.02 loading)
Silhouette 210 (Ok, Flare power less than the Saber, 6 Jumps, 1.02 loading)

Cobalt Demo:
It was my 53 jump. Downsizing and moving to a higher performance canopy provided plenty of excitement. I needed to be cautious, so I pulled at 7000 AGL to get plenty of time to check things out. I took it easy practicing flaring most of the way down. A straight in approach provided a good standup landing. Yea the first jump went well.
In all I put 29 jumps at 1.26 loading on the Cobalt Demo,
What follows are some of my thoughts:
Openings:
At first the openings were somewhat inconsistent in the 2nd stage. I called Cobalt Dan and he asked if I was reaching up and grabbing the risers upon opening. Dan said that would cause the canopy to go to the 2nd stage of the opening. Well sure enough, I made myself stop reaching for the risers and low and behold the 1st stage lasted quite a bit longer and I experienced the patented Cobalt 2-stage opening. Often because of my light loading? I would have end cell closure; no problem I just flared with the rear risers and all is well.
Toggle Turns:
The turns were way fun, very controllable and not too twitchy. I liked the way the canopy responded, very quick or a nice and slow carve depending on toggle input. Hammer turns were a blast.
Rear Riser:
Pressure was very manageable. I could turn, flare and clear any end cell closure with no problems. I feel I could flare/land with rear risers if need be.
Front Riser:
This is the first canopy I have been able to do much front risers with. The pressure is manageable. I was able to do 720s (up high of course) and some straight in front riser approaches (way fun).
Flare:
I practiced flying in deep brakes. I also took a wrap and tried to stall the canopy. I was impressed with the deep brake flying. The canopy did not bowtie just slowed and started to go backwards.
Landing was a blast, plenty of flare power and I was able to get my best surfs yet!
Conclusion:
The cobalt is the most fun canopy I have flown to date. It provides an envelope that will allow me to develop a full range of canopy skills. I would agree with Dan that if you can fly a Saber at a 1.0 loading, you could handle a cobalt at a 1.2 loading. It worked for me. Your mileage may vary of course. To sum it up I ordered a Cobalt 170! Flying will not be the same until it arrives. heh

[spectre230 0]

[craddock 0]

Spectre230,
Unless you personally know Foos, then you are not smart to address him in such a manner. Also- Have you jumped the Cobalt? As far as reckless is concerned, your post is all about that.
J

[foos 0]

I am not offended, and I appreciate your concern spectre230. From what little experience I have flying now (81 jumps) I can say that the Cobalt is very forgiving, you can fly it in a very mellow fashion as you like. Not only that but it has lot’s of flare power. You can sink it in or surf it out.
I will go on to say that there were many people at the DZ that shared your concern. After they watched me fly the canopy over the 29 jumps they had changed there tune to one of approval. They liked the way the canopy flew for me and watched firsthand how it handled in many conditions over a 2-week period.
Like most others I bring my prior experience to the table:
Air Force Air Craft Load Planner (Weight and Balance of Aircraft and Cargo et)
Model Helicopters Pilot (Not easy to do)
EANx Overhead Environment Diver (Mistakes will cost you your life)
Programmer (Computer Dude)
There are many ways to go in under any canopy. No one is perfect, but as long as you don’t do really stupid things under canopy there is some room to maneuver. I found the Cobalt loaded at 1.25 to work out well for me. I am sure it would not be for everyone.

[spectre230 0]

[foos 0]

Spectre230, yes you have a lot of experience and I can respect that.
I have also read in some of your other post how you have had friends go in under canopy. I extend my condolences.
I would agree that canopy flight is very important, and training is something that one has to aggressively pursue in this area. I love flying canopy and I think it shows in the way I fly.
Today I jumped two different canopies:
A Triathlon 220, the opening was nice (sniveled for a 1000 feet) but it was a barge in the air. You felt any turbulence, as far as the flare; well it had a little flare heh. Definitely not a canopy for me.
The second canopy I jumped was a Hornet 190. Not bad, it opened and turned ok. Front riser turns were ok. Flare power was ok. I guess I would say this is an Ok canopy.
I am still sold on the Cobalt for my main Canopy. If I were to find something else that I like better, I would jump it instead. I do have a demo request in for a Lotus 170. Not sure when it will show tho?
One has to respect Canopy flight. I do. I am also on a quest to improve my canopy skills. Based on jumping various Canopies I think that the Cobalt gives me the best combination of performance and safety. It is not the right choice for everyone, but for a few I think it can be a valid choice.

[diver123 0]

History, experiences, and results are documented day after day on a variety of subjects in life as a baseline for those who come after us to reference and learn from...
That being said, I have the following opinion:
Canopy choice/size may be one of the most important decisions you make in your skydiving career. However, just because a handful of people have illustrated their lack of interest in learning and have screwed this process up does not mean that others cannot be successful at the same. Each one of us brings a unique set of skills to this sport and we all excell at different speeds. I say, it sounds like Foos took some time under supervised conditions and made a choice according to what he felt comfortable with. At this point it is irrelevent what any of us think as to what's right or wrong in this situation. You may voice your opinion at will, but he's made a decision. Don't you think it would be more beneficial to share your findings, experiences, tips, and tricks on how to fly as safe as possible in stead of ridicule him or condemn him as "not being smart"? I mean seriously, how many people came to you and said that you "weren't being smart" about your decision to jump out of an airplane as a hobby? But you took the time to study the sport, learn the risks involved, and when you were comfortable you chose to try it out... Just because people have lost thier lives enjoying this very same sport, doesn't mean that there can't be many people who will skydive thousands of times over many years and retire from the sport with many rich experiences does it?
Why is that?
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[TALONSKY 0]

Well I thought I would add my .02 in on this one. I had read many posts where older jumpers are trying to tell younger jumpers to be very conservative on wing loading and type of canopy. I have also watch the newbie’s shun this advice saying they know what they are doing and can handle it. I read a post by Merrick with these same comments, I am not sure what he was flying when he broke his leg but it make me wonder if there is real wisdom in being conservative (I am very sorry to hear he broke his leg). A guy at my DZ was wing loading a Triathlon 1.6 to 1 with only 80 jumps total. He has hurt his knee about 6 times now and has had to take a month plus off of jumping. I have only been in this sport less than a year so I also am a newbie, but I can see the wisdom of being conservative. This sport is not very forgiving and to take it slow on down sizing canopies and to stay away from full elliptical canopies until you have 400 plus jumps I believe is not only smart but the only way to go. Sorry if this offends anyone and being a newbie I realize my opinion is not worth a whole lot.
For myself I have 200 jumps and have been off of student statues since last October, I put 150 jumps on a Flacon loaded 1.1 to 1. I now jump a Safire loaded at 1.4 to 1, I know that this may not be that conservative but I would never consider a full elliptical canopy until I have done 400 plus jumps, nor am I gong to down size any further until 400 plus jumps.
Kirk

[foos 0]

TalonSky
I agree being safe is very important, live to jump another day and all that.
I got off Student Status July of this year 01. As of today I have 86 jumps. I hope to have 100 plus this weekend if the weather cooperates.
It seems to me that all you have to do is say the word elliptical and everyone says no if you do not have many jumps. Will after flying a fully elliptical all I can say is I do not want to go back. Riser presser is much less, and the turns, well way fun.
I have flown a Triathlon at a 1 to 1 and well, it had a nice opening. Other than that with the little flare power it had I would not try to wing load it at 1.6.
I demoed a Safire as well. I suggest you demo a Cobalt with the same loading as your Safire. If you like surfing, you will not go back (heh). The Cobalt has way more flare power.
tcfoster

[prost 0]

Foos brings up a good point. It seems that anyone that has been around for a while is paranoid of the word ELLIPTICAL. I have been one of these people. Even though I jump them I never recommended them to new skydivers. This is an attitude that I no longer believe is productive. Elliptical wings are simply a much more efficient design and should not be only associated with high performance canopies. I believe we have even helped cause some injuries by holding novice skydivers back from elliptical canopies. The experiences they gain does not get them ready for more highly loaded elliptical canopies. This being said I would never recommend any canopy to anyone without personally seeing there canopy control skills.

[spectre230 0]

[prost 0]

Spectre 230,
How do you plan on picking out those few that will get hurt? especially if you do not have first hand knowledge of their abilities.

[spectre230 0]

[skybytch 259]

Okay, I tried to stay out of this, but Spectre said my name so...
First, I have nothing against elliptical canopies and/or high wingloadings when they are being flown by jumpers who are and stay very current and are very good canopy pilots (not "very good for their experience level" btw). I wish I was good enough and could stay current enough to fly one.
And actually I don't have a problem with higher wingloadings (1.2 - 1.3) for some novices just off student status - if the jumper shows exceptional talent, has been jumping loadings of around 1.0 on their student jumps, plans (can afford) to stay very current, has decreasing size canopies available to jump (safe downsizing), and has received and will continue to seek out excellent canopy control training.
What about the novices who jumped huge traditional student canopies as students and whose canopy control training ended long before they were off student status? Right now the majority of jumpers recently off student status fit that description. These jumpers are not ready to fly zp canopies - rectangular, tapered or elliptical - loaded at 1.1 .
I'm old school, but I'm also realistic. I know that the majority of new jumpers want to be JC, Clint, Jeff, Charlie, etc., as soon as possible. I think with excellent canopy control training built in as part of both student and post-student status training eventually almost all novice jumpers will be jumping far faster and hotter canopies than I recommend today.
The canopies and wingloadings I recommend today are far smaller and faster than what I was told to buy in 1990. Unfortunately for most students and novices, the available canopy control training has not advanced anywhere near as fast as main canopy technology has. Even loading their mains at 1.1 - 1.2, novice jumpers are hurting themselves badly every weekend around the world from mistakes that they likely could have walked (or at least limped) away from under a larger canopy.
I feel that the elliptical planform is too responsive for someone who has limited experience flying any canopy, regardless of their training or currency. Sure, there are some jumpers who might be ready at 100 - 200 jumps, but at this point, with the canopy control training that the majority of new jumpers are getting/not getting, these jumpers are very much in the minority.
It is very possible for someone to gain very valuable experience jumping lightly loaded, less aggressive mains for their first couple hundred jumps. It's all in how you fly the canopy - just because the main is "conservative" doesn't mean the pilot has to be! Plus, the jumper who puts a couple hundred jumps on that main has seen and dealt with a lot of stuff that the jumper with the shiny A license can't even imagine at that point - things like 180 degree wind shifts, wind speed changes while climbing to altitude, bad spots, off dz landings, crosswind landings, crowded landing areas, tight landing areas, somebody's dog running through the landing area right where you're gonna swoop...
Since this is a public forum and most of the people who post asking for size or canopy recommendations don't specify more than "I weigh this and I have this many jumps", my recommendations here are always very conservative. I assume that this person has received "typical" canopy control training and has been jumping big traditional student mains and I base my recommendations on that.
I'd have trouble sleeping at night if I knew that I had recommended (or sold) a canopy to someone and they went out and hooked it in. It's not that I'm old school, it's not that I'm a canopy nazi... it's just that I actually give a shit about the jumpers I type at/talk to.
pull and flare,
lisa
---
I chose the road less traveled. Now where the hell am I?

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Quote

Okay, I tried to stay out of this, but Spectre said my name so...

Come on Lisa.. admit it.. you were looking for an excuse to budd in....
I'm no great expert (only 700 jumps), but looking at my own progression and a few comments, I'll give my 2 pennies.. (when in England...)
I read a few posts saying " but that elliptical (cobalt, stiletto, whatever) is so much more fun".. yea.. I bet it is...
But one should keep in mind that the added fun comes at a price... I've yet to loose a friend to a botched landing, and I hate to think that day day probably will come.
The reason I hate to think that is that when I read of a jumper who went in due to a low turn (either on a high performance or not) and cant help but say to myself: poor guy, but damm stupid move... I hate to think I'll have these thoughts for a friend...
Remi

[prost 0]

I don't think just throwing novice skydivers under a big canopy is the answer. (Here you go, your standard issue plastic bubble to make skydiving completely safe). It doesn't work that way. Why aren't we taking the time to train students properly? Putting them under big low performance canopies is no substitute for proper training. Some novice skydivers should not be under 1.1 to 1.2 wing loaded canopies, I agree. However; to suggest to everyone that they get a raider 220 (just an example) for their first canopy doesn't help the situation. I have see this with good young canopy pilots. What usually happens is after another 100 jumps they go to a stilleto loaded at 1.8 because they feel they have the experience and are behind on their canopy development. This is now when they hurt themselves instead of being bruised at a wing loading of 1.1. If they are getting into high speed approaches they are also just now learning them on this fast canopy since pulling down the risers on their raider 220 was impossible. I know what the response is going to be. The second canopy should have been a 1.1 to 1.3 loaded ZP maybe slightly elliptical. The problem is, it usually doesn't happen this way and probably wouldn't if we would just train novices properly.

[chronistin 0]

Quote

This being said I would never recommend any canopy to anyone without personally seeing there canopy control skills.

that is what i have been missing in this (and the other) thread. how can you recommend anything to anyone if you don't know their skills? Number of jumps is not a good indicator of skills, people learn differently.
when i decided to buy a new canopy, the first people i talked to were my ex-instructors and some very experienced skydivers who had seen me from the start. following their advice (and i got similar responses from everyone), i demoed all the canopies they had recommended and based my decision on my jumps with the different models AND on their observations.
Greetings
Andrea

*************************************
http://www.wortwerkstatt.at/skydiving

[skybytch 259]

With enough information you can recommend canopy size and type to someone without seeing them fly. I sell gear over the phone and by email. I never see my customers fly their canopies. I have to go by what the person tells me about themselves and their experience.
There is a whole series of questions I ask a new jumper before recommending anything - where do they jump, what canopies have they been flying, how are their landings on those canopies, the obvious weight and # jumps, how they fly a canopy right now, how they want to fly a canopy, how current they plan to stay, is there gear available for them to safely downsize, is quality canopy control training available to them, etc., etc... and I always recommend loadings between .8 and 1.1 on rectangular or tapered zp mains to jumpers just off student status. If a novice asks for something more, I ask more questions, and have been known to insist on speaking with the jumpers instructor before I'll sell it to them.
I also recommend demoing to every jumper I talk with about canopies. That's the only way to know which canopy and which size is right for you. Get recommendations and advice, but don't buy anything until you've had a chance to jump everything you are interested in.
My job would be a lot easier if I didn't have to care. If it was just about money I could sell whatever to whoever wants it. I turn down sales on a pretty regular basis because I'm not comfortable with the idea of that jumper on that canopy (an example - 50 jumps, wanted a Crossfire loaded at 1.8...). I'm sure those jumpers can find someone to sell them what they want; at least it's not on my conscience when they bust themselves up with it.
And then there's the liability angle...
pull and flare,
lisa
---
I chose the road less traveled. Now where the hell am I?

[prost 0]

I don't think anyone would suggest a crossfire loaded at 1.8 to a jumper with 50 jumps. However if I watched a person with 100 jumps and noticed they had good canopy skills i wouldn't hesitate to suggest they try a elliptical canopy loaded at 1.1-1.3.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I don't think anyone would suggest a crossfire loaded at 1.8 to a jumper with 50 jumps.

He claimed he'd made five jumps on one that his "friend" let him borrow. He was quite upset that we wouldn't sell one to him considering that he'd already "proven" that he could "handle" it. We call these kind of calls "talking with a dead man."
This is only one example of what I hear every day...
pull and flare,
lisa
---
I chose the road less traveled. Now where the hell am I?

[freeflir29 0]

"talking with a dead man."
I bet you guys get a lot of that. "I know I only have 30 jumps but if that guy from Icarus can land a 47 so can I. I think I'm ready!"
"Don't give a F$#ck if I'm comin or leavin"-Pappa Roach
Clay

[chronistin 0]

Quote

With enough information you can recommend canopy size and type to someone without seeing them fly. I sell gear over the phone and by email. I never see my customers fly their canopies. I have to go by what the person tells me about themselves and their experience.

Good point, and your whole post is very sensible. What I wanted to say is that saying: "This jumper has 400 jumps, now he can go for an elliptical" doesn't work. Some are ready with a lower jump number, some will never be.
Greetings
Andrea

*************************************
http://www.wortwerkstatt.at/skydiving

[Staso 0]

don't you think it's kinda strange that cobaltdan hasn't showed up yet in this thread ? i don't want
to show any disrespect or something like that, but when i started reading this thread i had a feeling
that foos is cobaltdan. i'm sorry if i'm wrong foos, i just got that impression...
stan
c-31743

[imdskydiver 0]

He was quite upset that we wouldn't sell one to him considering that he'd already "proven" that he could "handle" it.
At what point would you sell him one (# of jumps)

[mountainman 0]

Quick question to those who know a lot about Cobalts...how light can you load these until they become more cumbersome than fun?? If you know, I am interested.
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