BMFin 0 #1 February 6, 2012 Im interested on learning the historical background on calling tandem passengers a student rather than a customer. I understand the term student, when someone wants to learn to skydive via IAF program. However, it seems strange we call tandem passengers students, when someone simply wants to have a once in a lifetime experience. What am I missing here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #2 February 6, 2012 Your missing the history of how and why TDM became what it is today. Back when it was invented, the idea was a way to train student skydivers. When it was first under the experimental program, those jumps were "training" jumps and not thrill rides like they are today, at most places. http://www.strongparachutes.com/pages/tandem_main.phpyou can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genego 2 #3 February 6, 2012 The vast majority of all first jumps are once in a lifetime experiences. Most people who make a first jump, by any method of training, make only one. It doesn't hurt to call a tandem passenger a student. If nothing else it makes them feel like part of the "community" even if only for a single jump. Also, in the opinion of the individual they are a student. It's also a little more friendly than calling them a customer.I live with fear and terror, but sometimes I leave her and go skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #4 February 6, 2012 QuoteI understand the term student, when someone wants to learn to skydive via IAF program. However, it seems strange we call tandem passengers students, when someone simply wants to have a once in a lifetime experience. How do we know they want only a one-time experience? Even if they say they do, it may not be true. When I made my first static line jump many years ago, I thought I would make only one jump. Tandem skydiving can be whatever we make it. We can be positive about the possibility of their returning for more training and call them a student, or we can treat them merely like customers and just take their money for a carnival ride. Many dropzones and instructors have chosen the latter, and it is unfortunate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 February 6, 2012 Research the FAA's definition of "passengers" and the regulations regarding "carriage" of them, and you'll see one of the best reasons to call and consider them students. Change the wording and you're simply helping us down that slippery slope.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,229 #6 February 6, 2012 Ya know... I know the history, but had never applied it to the future with such logic. Thanks.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #7 February 6, 2012 QuoteYour missing the history of how and why TDM became what it is today. Back when it was invented, the idea was a way to train student skydivers. When it was first under the experimental program, those jumps were "training" jumps and not thrill rides like they are today, at most places. http://www.strongparachutes.com/pages/tandem_main.php The way I have understood the history of tandem is that the first tandemjumps were invented by someone who wanted to take his disabled child with him on a skydive. Knowing he would never be able to make a jump on his own, he had to come up with a way to jump with him. Correct me if Im wrong. Therefore Im not convinced the initial goal with inventing tandem gear was to train students, nor it ever has been. (except for the fact it is one tool in the box on the IAF program) Students have been trained with solo gear before tandems and they are still trained with solo gear. Tandem never really changed the training towards a licence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #8 February 6, 2012 QuoteResearch the FAA's definition of "passengers" and the regulations regarding "carriage" of them, and you'll see one of the best reasons to call and consider them students. Change the wording and you're simply helping us down that slippery slope. Just to make sure I get you point right, Im assuming you are saying that if a tandem student was called a passanger, the legal liability issues were different? This would make sense obviously. Not that it would actually change the legal status of the activity, however I can see how people may think it does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #9 February 7, 2012 Well if you think Bill & Ted invented TDM's to make a carnival ride, your wrong, I won't put words into their mouths, Ted (rip) well you'll have to only read his words, Bill on the other hand, well he can speak for himself and might chime in here and tell you in his own words why he invented his system and how he for saw it being used.... Pretty sure he'll say for teaching skydiving, kind of like taking a CFI on a first flight in an airplane, there for that makes the person in front a "student" and IMHO that is what both Ted & Bill for saw in the future for it use, back in the day. I guess we'll if Bill Booth will post here and answer you personally.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #10 February 7, 2012 QuoteWell if you think Bill & Ted invented TDM's to make a carnival ride, your wrong... The way I read the text on Strongs website is that tandems were invented so that people could take "their wifes or children" with them on a skydive. It doesnt give me the impression that tandems were inveted to train anyone towards a solo dive. Actually the fact that they use quotation marks around the word "student" on the text, leads me to believe it is used to indicate a different meaning of the word than the one typically associated with it and is used to express irony. According to this text the reason for inventing tandems came from the aspiration "to be able to share the thrill of freefall skydiving with someone else." Nowhere in this text it says "to train student skydivers" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 273 #11 February 7, 2012 I bet it is a bit of both. "Hey, wouldn't it be cool to take a non-skydiver up? Hey, if we can do that, that would be a cool way to start teaching people the sport." (We also still call traditional first jump students Students even if the vast majority of them have always been in it for just one jump. Sure they get a few hours of actual training and may have to save their own life, but most aren't in it for the long term either.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #12 February 7, 2012 The bigger question is why the person on top is called a Tandem Instructor? NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 273 #13 February 7, 2012 Or as I've seen in one of those stories by a journalist making a jump, "My instructor was so experienced, everyone called him a tandem master!" Sounds better than Ride Operator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #14 February 7, 2012 QuoteResearch the FAA's definition of "passengers" and the regulations regarding "carriage" of them, and you'll see one of the best reasons to call and consider them students. Change the wording and you're simply helping us down that slippery slope. I'm not exactly sure what your point is since the FAA already has a definition for Tandem Passenger. QuotePart 105.1 Passenger parachutist means a person who boards an aircraft, acting as other than the parachutist in command of a tandem parachute operation, with the intent of exiting the aircraft while in-flight using the forward harness of a dual harness tandem parachute system to descend to the surface.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 273 #15 February 7, 2012 That's nice to know that the FAA has a definition of tandem passenger, but there's also the point that it wasn't that way during the many years when tandems were "experimental" in FAA eyes and part 105 must have been different. That's the point that was being made. I'll let someone else dig up the details. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 2 #16 February 7, 2012 A.K.A. ......PaxLife is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #17 February 7, 2012 A) You're incorrect about the development of Tandem Skydiving and the intent of those the developed the technology. B) (this is assuming you're taking about US skydiving) Think about what your status to the FAA is when you're riding in the airplane. If you do some research on this, you may see the slippery slope I'm talking about. Get back to me when you've read the regs.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 February 7, 2012 Quote The bigger question is why the person on top is called a Tandem Instructor? NickD For the win!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #19 February 7, 2012 QuoteA) You're incorrect about the development of Tandem Skydiving and the intent of those the developed the technology. B) (this is assuming you're taking about US skydiving) Think about what your status to the FAA is when you're riding in the airplane. If you do some research on this, you may see the slippery slope I'm talking about. Get back to me when you've read the regs. A) Why wont you give me some arguments to support your statement ? Im more than willing to admit my assumptions were wrong if you give me some facts. B)Why wont you tell me about this theory of yours instead of getting all mysterious and imperious Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #20 February 7, 2012 Quote Quote Well if you think Bill & Ted invented TDM's to make a carnival ride, your wrong... The way I read the text on Strongs website is that tandems were invented so that people could take "their wifes or children" with them on a skydive. It doesnt give me the impression that tandems were inveted to train anyone towards a solo dive. Actually the fact that they use quotation marks around the word "student" on the text, leads me to believe it is used to indicate a different meaning of the word than the one typically associated with it and is used to express irony. According to this text the reason for inventing tandems came from the aspiration "to be able to share the thrill of freefall skydiving with someone else." Nowhere in this text it says "to train student skydivers" It doesn't say that NOW in 2012 on a website designed to market an expensive parachute system. Think big picture before you get all critical with your myopic view of how & what 'things' are. Let me take you back to the early time, the mid 80's~ I got my rating when the drogues were 1st coming out...the guys jumping without them weren't taking mom on a thrill ride....trust me. It most definitely WAS initially meant as a teaching tool. You were trained as such when you received your rating back then. You were taught what to teach and how to present it both on the ground & in the air. There was a training curriculum you followed regarding stability, turns & tracking...and of course canopy control. You explained and demonstrated how to turn, and when in the pattern. The goal was to move a 'student' to solo but by utilizing a method of 'dual' flight instruction, as in flying light aircraft. We were told in the 1st two minutes of the TM course that if you were just there to get the rating so you could take friends on a thrill ride filled with spins & stalls...you were wasting your money and their time... "there is a reason the toggles have a place for 4 hands" Well..it's the U$A and good intentions often take a backseat to the spreadsheet. It started generating interest with people that wanted to bucket list it. DZ's saw the profitable advantages of amusement park 'turn-style' Tandem rides...get 'em in, get 'em up & get 'em gone. The rest is history. At least with the change came turbines! The reason for the 'student' designation is because the Tandem system was initially designated as 'Experimental' and as with aircraft, you're not supposed to take paying passengers for 'ride$', ~but you can 'instruct' them how to fly it. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #21 February 7, 2012 yep, what he said....you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 9 #22 February 7, 2012 Quote The bigger question is why the person on top is called a Tandem Instructor? NickD I've always thought of myself as a 'drogue-chucker' and the one in front as a 'unit'. 2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #23 February 7, 2012 Ok. Thanks for the info. Makes sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #24 February 7, 2012 QuoteThe way I read the text on Strongs website is that tandems were invented so that people could take "their wifes or children" with them on a skydive. It doesnt give me the impression that tandems were inveted to train anyone towards a solo dive. My hazy memory seems to recall that when tandem was first invented, the FAA had it categorized as "experimental". And aircraft in that category are not allowed to take passengers for hire. Experimental tandems could only be used for the purpose of training. And thus, to be legal with the FAR's, they had to be called "students". That experimental status has long since been upgraded to full acceptance by the FAA. But that "student" name has stuck in many places, even though today it's more of a one-time passenger thrill ride now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #25 February 7, 2012 Quote B) (this is assuming you're taking about US skydiving) Think about what your status to the FAA is when you're riding in the airplane. If you do some research on this, you may see the slippery slope I'm talking about. Get back to me when you've read the regs. I don't get where you're going with this either. The FAA has already made several specific determinations towards what constitutes a "passenger" during certain flight operations: a) A parachutist is not a "passenger" as it relates to Part 125, meaning that an airplane can carry more than 20 parachutists and be exempt from the complexities of Part 125. b) A parachutist is not a "passenger" as it relates to seat requirements or limitations contained in a Type Certificate meaning that a skydiving airplane can carry more skydivers than the maximum "passengers" an airplane is type certificated for. c) A private pilot may be compensated in glider towing operations because a towed glider and its occupants are not considered passengers or cargo. I'm not sure what slippery slope you're talking about.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
