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nigel99

Check-in debate

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I know there have been threads in the past, but in light of the recent Netherlands incident I thought I'd bring it up again.

Some DZ's successfully implement a check in procedure, whereas others claim it is not possible.

It seems to me that DZ's have a duty of care, to ensure that jumpers are safely checked in after a jump.

As most DZ's operate on weekends it is conceivable that an injury that may have been survivable, could end up as a fatality if the person isn't found in a timely manner.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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it shouldn't be hard to implement, as all major DZ's claim that they have someone count all canopies opening, checking for cutaways etc....

we have lived a loss at a DZ I used to jump at, one jumper went in, with nothing out, just before lunchtime. Was noticed that he was missing about 4 hours later by his girlfriend (who was absent of the DZ for the day).
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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it shouldn't be hard to implement, as all major DZ's claim that they have someone count all canopies opening, checking for cutaways etc....

we have lived a loss at a DZ I used to jump at, one jumper went in, with nothing out, just before lunchtime. Was noticed that he was missing about 4 hours later by his girlfriend (who was absent of the DZ for the day).


Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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it shouldn't be hard to implement, as all major DZ's claim that they have someone count all canopies opening, checking for cutaways etc....



Check-in controls are useful to account for everyone, however if we are looking to add response time to injuries that maybe avoided fatalities, then I feel that check-in procedures alone are not enough.

Imagine the scenario, a busy DZ, someone doesnt check in (there isnt a counting canopy control). Tannoy announcements go out, people search, and eventually its determined they are missing. How long would this take? Yes, they would be reporting missing earlier (maybe), but would this help a time sensitive injury?

Counting canopies, and watching them until landing I feel is a more beneficial control should there look to be an injury that requires a quick response time. I generally spend a little time on DZ control to get a feeling to how conscientious the DZ controller is in counting canopies, and the process of when people land off. In the most cases here in the UK, the controls are extremely vigilant. I normally take time to visit new DZs on week days (or quiet days) to get a feel for their overall processes (amoungst other reasons).

I would feel much happier having people counting canopies and watching landings then whether there was a check-in procdedure. Saying that, I think both together create a belt and braces control.

The otherside of the coin, dont be reliant on anyone other than yourself, and take full responsibility for your skills and capabilities and back up plans. Ensure your skills are as good as they can be for when you may have to land off, or for the conditions, be aware of whats occuring around you in the conditions, as breaking a femur or ankle compound in an off landing situation could result in death or loss of limbs if you rely on being noticed. Polish up your skills to minimise the risks, and take a phone with you on jumps.

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It seems to me that DZ's have a duty of care, to ensure that jumpers are safely checked in after a jump



You and you alone are responsible, and look out for your friends and fellow jumpers.

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I don't worry about checking in when with a group jump, but when I do solos and especially solos at a new dz (getting a feel before trying to find someone to jump with), I ask another jumper on the load to make sure to see me on the ground. Make a point to find them and ask how their jump went or something as a check in.

If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.

Edit: Its simple to police yourself and be responsible.

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If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.



In my experience, when you're on jump run and you ask someone to do something when they land, they're quite likely to agree to anything you say then promptly forget you even exist about 0.00001s after exit.

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If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.


The check-in is for the DZ. It's their cue to go looking for your broken, responsible self.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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So the dzo or dz doesn't care about you enough to notify someone that you are missing Should we just leave the bodies out there till someone else finds them? Hell who cares they're already dead so just leave the body for someone else to deal with[:/]



That's exactly what I said... :S

Come on people...

I jump at probably the busiest full time DZ in the world. I've called my home DZ everything from a 1 cesna DZ, a 3 Beech 18 place, and places with a couple medium sized turbines. All these DZs had evil DZOs that dont care if the body count in their fields go up :P, but, they all looked out for problems.

Eloy has ground personnel looking out of mals, problems, etc. Do I expect them to see me bounce in? No. I don't just go to the DZ, not talk to anyone, and be anti social. It's up to me to set up a network of people who know I'm there. If the DZ spots me, great. If not, one my my friends will notice.

/rant
Remster

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USPA reported 3 million jumps last year...how many jumpers are wandering around the dz woods, zombie-like, due to a lack of a check-in system. Zero.

This just seems silly to me.



There's been (I think) three fatalities in the last few years where the person wasn't missed and the body wasn't found for a few days. The one in Houston, the one at Bay Area Skydiving, and this one. This one and the one at BAS were both no-pull fatalities; a check-in system wouldn't have changed the outcome; there was some debate as to whether the guy in Houston could have been helped.

I'm with others who say that it really needs to be incumbent on us to look out for each other. Jumping in a group? Make sure your group is all accounted for post-jump. Jumping solo? Let someone on the load know, and ask 'em to check in with you after the jump. New to the dropzone and jumping solo? Same thing, but you'll have to introduce yourself to someone on the plane first. :ph34r:
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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USPA reported 3 million jumps last year...how many jumpers are wandering around the dz woods, zombie-like, due to a lack of a check-in system. Zero.

This just seems silly to me.



There's been (I think) three fatalities in the last few years where the person wasn't missed and the body wasn't found for a few days. The one in Houston, the one at Bay Area Skydiving, and this one. This one and the one at BAS were both no-pull fatalities; a check-in system wouldn't have changed the outcome; there was some debate as to whether the guy in Houston could have been helped.

I'm with others who say that it really needs to be incumbent on us to look out for each other. Jumping in a group? Make sure your group is all accounted for post-jump. Jumping solo? Let someone on the load know, and ask 'em to check in with you after the jump. New to the dropzone and jumping solo? Same thing, but you'll have to introduce yourself to someone on the plane first. :ph34r:




Wasn't there one a few years ago out west. i think an instructor at the DZ. Everyone thought he had gone back to his trailer and they found him later out of his harness ???
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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USPA reported 3 million jumps last year...how many jumpers are wandering around the dz woods, zombie-like, due to a lack of a check-in system. Zero.

This just seems silly to me.



There's been (I think) three fatalities in the last few years where the person wasn't missed and the body wasn't found for a few days. The one in Houston, the one at Bay Area Skydiving, and this one. This one and the one at BAS were both no-pull fatalities; a check-in system wouldn't have changed the outcome; there was some debate as to whether the guy in Houston could have been helped.

I'm with others who say that it really needs to be incumbent on us to look out for each other. Jumping in a group? Make sure your group is all accounted for post-jump. Jumping solo? Let someone on the load know, and ask 'em to check in with you after the jump. New to the dropzone and jumping solo? Same thing, but you'll have to introduce yourself to someone on the plane first. :ph34r:




Wasn't there one a few years ago out west. i think an instructor at the DZ. Everyone thought he had gone back to his trailer and they found him later out of his harness ???



That was the one in Houston K mentioned.
Remster

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I believe there was one at Perris and the jumper involved was russian? They noticed a car left in the lot after a while and the body was found weeks or more later.



Oh yeah, forgot about that one.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.


The check-in is for the DZ. It's their cue to go looking for your broken, responsible self.



Yes, I understand the system. Having never encountered a check in DZ (just went across country last month with my girl and jumped a few places on my way), none that required a check in either, I relied on the senior jumpers that took an interest in the new guy to their DZ to make sure I was accounted for.

I would gladly check in if it was required, but I would also still ask another jumper to account for me too. The DZ check in would be added insurance to the jumper looking out for me also if I was missing. (maybe I miss worded my first post).

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If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.



In my experience, when you're on jump run and you ask someone to do something when they land, they're quite likely to agree to anything you say then promptly forget you even exist about 0.00001s after exit.



That hasn't been my experience so far. I've always been met with some form of acknowledgement from others I ask.

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Well, clearly it was an exaggeration to make the larger point that while there will be exceptions to the rule but on balance this really isn't a problem - or the associated inference that DZs aren't "safe" or "caring" or whatever. Extraordinary skydives the system is used of course. For the most part I see people looking out for each other.

That's all.

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