Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor

[stormywinters 1]

I'm just pickin on ya JP, I'm sure Bowen wants to hear your opinion, he may even like it rough.

[RackJR 0]

try not to put words into somone else's post jp. Bowen didn't say he was expecting a tip. he said it was unfortunate that people expect coaching, which he's ok to give because he loves to teach, and it would be nice if they could recognize that he's going over and above his job description to help them out, which they typically don't. no where in his post did he say that he was expecting a tip.

i know it might seem radical to you, but sometimes it is nice if people take care of you, when you take care of them. and if my memory is correct, i think his post also said that even a few dollars is a great acknowledgement of gratitude.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[Squeak 17]

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try not to put words into somone else's post jp. Bowen didn't say he was expecting a tip. he said it was unfortunate that people expect coaching, .

See this is where the problem starts, better product description will prevent this.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[RossDagley 0]

The solution might be to not tip with cash, but with "goodies" - we always appreciate a box of krispy kreme donuts as a thank you for whatever

Beers cool to - often I've sat down with "customers" after a long day and had a cool beer to relax and chat. There's lots of ways to say "thanks".

[Jewels 0]

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he said it was unfortunate that people expect coaching, which he's ok to give because he loves to teach, and it would be nice if they could recognize that he's going over and above his job description to help them out, which they typically don't.

I can't speak for other tunnels, but I would guess that one reason people may expect coaching at SVCO is that it's what we've received since day one, without special request. That's a nice thing. In fact, we don't necessarily just get "coaching" from whoever comes into the tunnel with us. It's not uncommon that the person driving is watching and offering suggestions as to how to make something work. I know Jason (and most everyone else, at one time or another) has done that for me.
I know SVCO is going to a new program where we can buy coached time from the instructors. I think that the tunnel might need to educate its customers about the changes if it means that when you buy regular minutes you're just going to get the "attendant" version of an instructor. Otherwise, past practice leaves it open for people to assume that they'll receive coaching any time they go.

On a side note, but back to the original topic, my inclination to tip at all will plunge if I just have someone standing in the door, waiting to make a rescue, as opposed to giving me real instruction.

I also just paid for a membership to buy minutes at a discounted rate, but if those minutes are going to be "you're on your own" minutes, I'll forego that expense altogether in the future. It's not worth it. That also means that my cost has gone up for what I perceived to be the same service (membership minutes and coached minutes) when it was our understanding that the membership format was to help the cost go down for frequent flyers.

Anyway, I digress. None of that changes my willingness to tip for coaching, but just make sure that if the tunnel's "product" changes that the instructors expect tipping practices to change, too.

TPM Sister #102

[RackJR 0]

Jewels i think there's a few things that have contributed at SVCO. you're definitely right that we have all been giving free coaching to the adult league. that program was started with the goal of showing non skydivers (or lower experience skydivers) how much fun the tunnel can be, how quickly you can learn, etc. so that those people would be good advertising for us when they talked to friends/coworkers/relatives/whoever. as instructors working with that league, i think we were all very ok with the fact that people might not tip, probably wouldn't, because the experience base just wasn't there to know that typically in skydiving, if you want coaching, you pay for it. i think the tipping that did happen was growing awareness that 1. we're working hard for you guys and 2. sometimes what you get from one instructor can be very different from what you get from another. to my knowledge, none of us were ever expecting a tip from the league but just like when we get tips from regular classes, it was nice. i think for all of you in that league, it will highlight the difference between flying on your own (no coach), and getting coaching.

i think you're right about that being different at other tunnels. when i was going to orlando or perris, before working at SVCO, those tunnels had a coaching program in place, and the tunnel instructor, for the most part, just kept us safe. as a tunnel, they had some sharp contrasts from here, though. huge skydiving communities, and lots and lots of coaches.

to my knowledge, adult league will continue as it has in the past. no one there, myself included, was ruffled enough to want to change anything. the coaching program is something we've been talking about, in some form or other, since before the tunnel opened, and this is just how long it took to get everyone together on it. you're right that people do need to understand the value of coaching, and that most of the responsibility for educating them falls to us. as far as the membership you bought, i don't think you'll have to worry about one of us just standing in the door when you fly, unless you tell us to get out. all of the adult league-ers have been great customers, and i think coaching will come as often as you want it.

for others reading the thread, there have been 4 tunnel instructors who've posted. unanimously, we've said that we don't come to work expecting a tip, only that it's nice when it happens, it doesn't have to be money, and not tipping is ok. Julie wanted a number as a guidepost, which it doesn't seem like anyone (me included) wants to give. i like what Joe had to say. tip what you want when you want, when you feel good about the session and only then.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[Jewels 0]

I'm not worried about coaching during league. (And, btw, thanks for saying "non-skydivers" instead of "whuffos" because I think I'm now the only one who qualifies for that title except for perhaps one other person who is there periodically.
Anyway, I was thinking more of the extra time we buy during the week when I was talking about coaching and whether it's going to come with the time purchased or not--I just didn't actually SAY that part, I guess. Sorry! No worries; it will work out just fine. And as for kicking you out of the tunnel, I'm far more likely to haul you in and expect you to figure out how to fly at my slow windspeed. (I'm working on it, I'm working on it!! The weight belt helps.)

I also appreciate the general consensus that you (collectively) don't expect a tip but that you appreciate it when it happens. I DO understand that and I do not necessarily feel compelled to give a tip at all or to give a certain amount. It's all good. I hope that the other tunnel customers who might have been watching the thread without joining in the discussion have taken something from the discussion, too. I'm just glad for the input.

TPM Sister #102

[skycat 0]

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we don't come to work expecting a tip, only that it's nice when it happens, it doesn't have to be money,

Julie,

From past experience Starbucks on a crazy busy Saturday makes the boys VERY happy.

Fly it like you stole it!

[Jewels 0]

LOL--Okay, you'll have to give me a list of what everybody likes. All I specifically remember is that Brad doesn't drink coffee.

I'm surprised you didn't go for my tip-with-lottery-tickets idea. Then it really IS "tipping whatever!" (And just for the record, I wouldn't do that! )

TPM Sister #102

[pope 0]

Alright Mr. Pink - what level tunnel instructor/coach are YOU, and WHICH TUNNEL DO YOU/HAVE YOU WORKED AT? I suppose you're one of those "I've been here for a half-hour and she's only refilled my coffee 3 times!"

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Bullshit, you are hired and paid to provide a service.

Absolutely. as INSTRUCTORS, my understanding is that they are paid to keep people safe in the tunnel. Have you ever gone through Instructor training or know what it involves? Do you know what kind of physical strength is needed to be a tunnel instructor or make a difficult spot?

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Tipping should only EVER be for something OUTSTANDING and above normal practice for the job discription. treating ANY customer less because they dont tip shows how porrly you are suited to the job.

In league flights, the instructor is getting paid to be an INSTRUCTOR, not a COACH, yet they're performing both duties. Does that not qualify as "above and beyond" to you?

Your implication that ANY tunnel instructor treats ANY customer less than expected of them is totally inflammatory and dead wrong. ALL the tunnel instructors I've met take their jobs VERY seriously, and do it well.

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As for the 10-20 buck teaches the crew what you like, do your friggin job properly and make certain the customer knows what they are paying for. that way the customer pays for what is offered and the staff gets paid for what they are hired to do.

[Scubadivemaster 3]

Again, though you emphasize INSTRUCTOR, it seems that the role you describe being more of attendant. (Not trying to be argumentative when I say that).

If I am not hijacking the thread, can some of you tunnel instructors tell us what you feel your "job" is as an "instructor" who is paid to be in the tunnel or antechamber during our tunnel time? Perhaps if we get a feel for what it is that you instructors believe your role to be, we will know that you are going above and beyond. I really think that there is a misunderstanding here as to what that role is.

I'd also be interested in hearing what the tunnel owners/managers believe their instructors roles to be. Do the owners think that they are paying the instructors to be teachers or lifeguards?

Again, please, I am making an honest effort to unravel what I think is a serious misunderstanding, not trying to be a jackass. From the responses generated by this thread, I think the instructors would like us to know this, and I think I would feel much more comfortable knowing exactly what to expect out of the instructors. I know what to expect from the coaches, as they tell me exactly when I make my deal with them.

Jewels, if I am leading this too far away, tell me, and I will move it to another thread.

[Jewels 0]

Actually, I think the questions are intertwined with one another and I agree--I think there is a disconnect between what tunnel goers and tunnel instructors/coaches believe their roles to be. As far as I'M concerned, it's a perfectly legitimate part of the discussion. As you point out, what is "above and beyond" all depends upon where the baseline is.

It's what I alluded to earlier today--we (SVCO flyers, anyway) have always received what is probably considered "coaching" from our "instructors," so we think that's the norm. It makes sense to me to talk about this hand-in-hand with tipping.

TPM Sister #102

[RackJR 0]

when i instruct for return fliers, my job is to keep them safe. sometimes, that will include showing them the correct way to do something, because that makes my job easier (fewer spots) and keeps them safer. an excellent example would be when a person is trying to learn to stand up from a back fly position. if they arch while doing that, they'll launch themselves up into the wall. in that situation, it serves us both for me to show them how to do that, and give them a bit of help while they learn. that particular transition is one that stands out in my mind, although there are a couple others where the safest thing for everyone is for me to give you the tools you need to do it safely. although that is "coaching", i think of it more as lowering the wear and tear on me. for the majority of other things you'll learn in the tunnel, if you learn it from someone else, and not from bouncing around until you figured it out on your own, you've been coached. our job as tunnel instructors is only to keep you safe. that may also include telling you to (please) not do something like you're trying to do until you get proper coaching.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[Paulipod 0]

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I'd also be interested in hearing what the tunnel owners/managers believe their instructors roles to be. Do the owners think that they are paying the instructors to be teachers or lifeguards?

Personally - I hire instructors to perform both safety and coaching tasks. At all times a focus on safety comes first... and we only charge for coaching when an additional staff member (and hence more cost) are present in the tunnel.

For basic tuition (where the instructor has feet on the floor and spotting is not compromised) then they are free to give tuition. Sitting out afterwards / watching the DVD / debreif etc is extra time and hence charged for.

I am always surprised by the tipping debate (probably cus I am from a culture where it is never expected)
For me - it makes sense if ANY person in your mind makes a positive impact and you like what they did... to give them a bonus is a nice gift.... no mattter what their job!

Coach / Instructor / receptionist / cleaner / (tunnel owner) whichever - if you like the service say thanks in whichever way you like... if the service was normal - great... if bad - give feedback

By the way - a big thanks to those folks who have bought Kripsy Kreme doughnuts for us in the recent weeks! as Ross mentioned that is by FAR the best tip

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[Squeak 17]

you would benifit from a dictionary, if you are going to use specific term at leeast use them in their correct context.
And I stand by my acertion that people need to be told exactly what they are paying for.
Instructors, instruct,
Coaches, coach
Safety attendants, attent to safety, the title may not sit well with the people there but i could not care less.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[sartre 0]

Since it was never made clear that there were differences in the level of involvement of the person in the tunnel with us, it once again highlights the problem with communication and customer service.

I am told one thing by one coach, something different by another. Then the once coach gets angry because I am going by what I was told. That coach takes it out on me.

Hardly seems fair to blame the customer for not knowing what the tunnel policy is.

Up to now I have had nothing but admiration and appreciation for the guys that have been in the tunnel with me. I will admit I have wondered why some just stand there in the doorway and talk back and forth to each other (reading lips). I assumed this was someone who wasn't interested in doing anything but passing the time and collecting a paycheck. Now the way it has been explained by you and some others certainly makes sense, but it would have been nice for that to have been communicated to the CUSTOMER base, which has, incidentally, been a very good source of advertisement for the tunnel.

I've noticed that when we are flying league, and someone is showing a potential customer around, the screen flashes, "Adult League". As you've said, it's a nice advertisement, especially since some of the adult leaguers are at a level that is pretty amazing for the average passer by.

However, when we've always received a certain level of service, and then it is suddenly performed with a level of resentment that is not explained to us, it leaves a very bad taste in your mouth.

None of was looking for special treatment. But what you say behind closed doors isn't exactly the same as what you say here on the internet, Jason. Either way, I find both really disappointing.

[brettski74 0]

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you would benifit from a dictionary, if you are going to use specific term at leeast use them in their correct context.
And I stand by my acertion that people need to be told exactly what they are paying for.
Instructors, instruct,
Coaches, coach
Safety attendants, attent to safety, the title may not sit well with the people there but i could not care less.

Yes - that's part of the problem. At the SkyVenture tunnels, the term instructor seems to be used to refer to a guy who's responsibility is safety, not instruction. Someone who does instruction is called a coach. At least, that's what seemed the case at SVAZ, and from the discussion here and elsewhere, that seems consistent with other SkyVenture tunnels. Once you're aware of that, it's a little easier to follow how things work.

[Stumpy 256]

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By the way - a big thanks to those folks who have bought Kripsy Kreme doughnuts for us in the recent weeks! as Ross mentioned that is by FAR the best tip

You going to increase the power of the tunnel again soon Paul?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[pope 0]

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you would benifit from a dictionary, if you are going to use specific term at leeast use them in their correct context.

You are absolutely correct. I have found dictionaries to be extremely beneficial as learning tools over the years. Since you didn't mention which "specific term" you're referencing though, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Was it the "Mr. Pink" reference?

Feel free to PM me with any response so we don't clutter the thread with more semantics.
cheers,
pope

[Squeak 17]

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you would benifit from a dictionary, if you are going to use specific term at leeast use them in their correct context.

You are absolutely correct. I have found dictionaries to be extremely beneficial as learning tools over the years. Since you didn't mention which "specific term" you're referencing though, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Was it the "Mr. Pink" reference?

Feel free to PM me with any response so we don't clutter the thread with more semantics.
cheers,
pope

Umm I did mention the 3 terms Instructors Coaches and Safety Attendant, it would appear that reading/comprehension would also help you


BTW I'm well aware of the Mr Pink Reference from Reservoir Dogs, I'm surprised you consider Tunnel personel in the same ilk as $3per hour waitresses.(edit to add) Who work their poor arses off and get man handled and accosted for their $3 Yeah I can see the similarity now, those poor poor tunnel rats

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[diablopilot 2]

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm just pickin on ya JP, I'm sure Bowen wants to hear your opinion, he may even like it rough.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[RackJR 0]

Yvonne if you want to continue to attack me personally in this public forum i will absolutely be responding with things you will not like. my interpretation of the events of the other evening are quite different from yours.
i have deliberately stayed away from any comment towards you, trying not to make the situation worse. i'm not feeling very wise about that decision right now, since i think your accusations are, at best, incredibly unfair.
if you're looking for clarity or resolution, you can always PM me, and i will be happy to talk to you. if instead you're looking to air this out on dz.com, i'm sure you'll let me know that, too.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[sartre 0]

I'm sure your interpretation is quite different. That doesn't surprise me in the least.

Nor do I care what you think or have to say about it. I already tried to talk to you one on one. We both know how successful that was.

I have nothing to say to you. Or about you. I think you'll show your true colors to everyone soon enough. Until then, I won't be flying in the tunnel. You can thank yourself for that, 100%, although I'm sure you consider that a blessing.

Hope sticking to your self delusions is worth it.

[Scubadivemaster 3]

This has been very productive up until this point. Lets try to keep it that way.