ScratchTX 0 #1 December 10, 2004 When I had some coached tunnel time in Orlando last year, I found myself spending a lot of time waaay up near the top, and bouncing off the walls. What would this translate to in an outdoor tunnel? I'm picturing long crashes to the net...kind of ugly and asymmetrical after a slide out of the air column, too, I imagine. I'm sure I'm not the only lightweight person who tenses up when having a hard time in a wind tunnel -- are there any videos of this happening in an outdoor tunnel like the L-1? Or a good description of what happens/best way to handle it? I've watched the video clips on the L1 website and can see that, unless you TRACKED out of the airflow or something, you'd be hard-pressed to miss the net - so no real concern there. Is the net bouncy enough to make a big plummet down to it simply fun, and not a problem? Or is there a height from which falling out of the airflow is really not recommended? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #2 December 10, 2004 I would guess most facilities would not let you go too high unless you prove totally in control... A drop onto padding or netting could always end badly so will be avoided. In Skyventure to my experience you are allowed up higher as you can mostly be caught on the way down if youre in trouble..... each tunnel type requires different safety procedures. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #3 December 11, 2004 Hello ScratchTX, Let me answer a couple of your questions for you. First of all, your SkyVenture experience would not be duplicated in any type of blowing type tunnel, wether wall to wall air or not. The design of the SkyVenture, simply creates an "optimal" test section, which is where we all end up naturally, above the windows where the air starts to diffuse, not down toward the net, although you will find that the optimal area changes, depending on how many people are in the tunnel. Now, at the L1 in N.Carolina, the 50 foot net was designed specifically for catching a stunt flyer from 70ft or more. 180lb sand bags were used during the testing and of course, we are all very happy with the results. What you could expect from a visit to L1, is slow enough airspeed to keep you in even if you panick, a coach, John Suiter, at your side constantly, flying with you. When you can demonstrate control, you will get more airspeed. There is a different style of learning when your not in wall to wall air. We teach people to tuck & roll if you are ejected from the column. But honestly most people slide out so slowly that they simply stand up. Its most certainly fun to take some falls.. kinda like when you were a kid and jumped off of a swing to see who could land the farthest away. The net isn't bouncy like a trampoline, it's more like a trapeze net.. when you pick your feet up, the net stays with you, you won't ever bounce out of it unless you are at heights of more than 50ft, and if so, you would bounce up about 2 inches and land right back down with little force or impact. I hope that answers your questions for you! Perhaps we'll share some air someday! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #4 December 11, 2004 QuoteThe design of the SkyVenture, simply creates an "optimal" test section, which is where we all end up naturally, above the windows, not down toward the net, although you will find that the optimal area changes, depending on how many people are in the tunnel. Not entirely true. The column of air is pretty continuous from the net to about 15 feet up. The vertical position of a flyer or flyers within that column can esily be controled by a) the jumper's body position, and/or b) the speed of the tunnel's 5 fans.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #5 December 11, 2004 Quote You either don't know or don't wish to share the facts about the "SkyVenture" type of tunnel. I'm not really sure what you mean about either comment, I spent a great deal of time, at the Orlando site as it was being constructed, in addition to lots of time spent discussing the workings with the designing engineer, even shared a house with him in Celebration, FL, during the final phases of construction, and into the opening months. Most everyone will find that they stay at the top of the air.. this is where the constant speed you speak of in the approx. 15ft begins to slow down as the chamber opens out to the fans. This is the area above the windows where it is natural to hover. Of course you can fly down into the lower area, of course the speed will affect this as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #6 December 11, 2004 QuoteMost everyone will find that they stay at the top of the air.. Simply not true. When controling in the tunnel, it is elementry to be able to put a flyer with a netral (read not changing) body position at what ever height you wish simply by changing the speed. QuoteI spent a great deal of time, at the Orlando site as it was being constructed, in addition to lots of time spent discussing the workings with the designing engineer, even shared a house with him in Celebration, FL, during the final phases of construction, and into the opening months. The design is considerably changed from what it was. The fans are no longer variable pitch, but instead variable speed, a MUCH more responsive system. Note I altered my original post for what could have been interperated ad "antagonistic" flavor. Not my intent.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #7 December 11, 2004 QuoteMost everyone will find that they stay at the top of the air.. QuoteSimply not true. Perhaps, but in the case of the original post, the experience was certainly similar and certianly not uncommon. (and referred to Orlando) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites arlo 0 #8 December 11, 2004 QuoteWhen I had some coached tunnel time in Orlando last year, I found myself spending a lot of time waaay up near the top, and bouncing off the walls. could it be that you "felt" as though you were near "the top" when in actuality you were flying near or at the top of the glass? i worked at skyventure for a few years and they don't let people fly that high above the glass because: 1. most people CAN'T fly much higher than 10-15 feet (inside the 42-foot tall column) and that's PUSHING it. and 2. they don't allow people that high and will adjust the speed accordingly to keep you in the effective flying area (between the floor and the top of the glass). you really have to know what you're doing or be light as a feather to sustain flight a few feet above the glass for any length of time and if you find yourself there and you "bounce off the walls", you most likely end up unstable and dropping out anyways. just wanted some clarification because sometimes perception can change if you're not used to being in there. FWIW, when i freefly in a larger suit and i end up on my belly to start a headdown outfacing carve, i fly about 4-5 feet above the glass then work my way down into the glassed area...and that's topped out (high speed). i would have to seriously work to sustain flight higher than that in a relaxed, belly to earth position...and i've got a bunch of time in there. when training 4-way in the tunnel, teams fly about 3-5 feet off the bottom. enjoy your flights and i, for one, am looking forward to getting into the L-1 tunnel and learning a few things there as well. it's all about flying your body... blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #9 December 11, 2004 >you most likely end up unstable and dropping out anyways Droping out in Skyventure hurts... Or so does attempting a front flip when someone is really motioning to keep going... Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScratchTX 0 #10 December 11, 2004 Quote could it be that you "felt" as though you were near "the top" when in actuality you were flying near or at the top of the glass? yes, most likely. I know I did shoot some distance up above the glass a few times, but generally I was probably going only just above it when it felt as if I was going "way up there." And most of the bouncing around off the walls was at the glass level or lower, true. Quote you really have to know what you're doing that wouldn't be meQuote or be light as a feather not really -- 110 lbs but I had on about 10 lbs of weight, so 120, and my skydiving fall rate is slow/average, not super slow. Quoteto sustain flight a few feet above the glass for any length of time and if you find yourself there and you "bounce off the walls", you most likely end up unstable and dropping out anyways. just wanted some clarification because sometimes perception can change if you're not used to being in there. Oh yeah! Actually when I review the tape I realize that my perception was worse than the reality... the first round through was pretty pitiful but by the 3rd or 4th I actually was getting some minimal control. The memory of it is worse than it was, really. Going to the point of exhaustion, and also slamming my head into the top of the doorframe on an exit and losing my hearing for ten minutes/wondering if I had perma-tweaked my neck, kind of colored my memory of the experience. It was humbling indeed, and quite frustrating. They say skydiving in 90% mental, and the tunnel really brought that home! Quote i would have to seriously work to sustain flight higher than that in a relaxed, belly to earth position... emphasis mine. :>) Quoteenjoy your flights and i, for one, am looking forward to getting into the L-1 tunnel and learning a few things there as well. it's all about flying your body... I hope to get to the L-1 tunnel sometime, too. But lately I am barely getting to the dropzone so it might be a while. Thanks for the perspective --Scratch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScratchTX 0 #11 December 11, 2004 QuoteHello ScratchTX, Let me answer a couple of your questions for you. [...] [...] 50 foot net was designed specifically for catching a stunt flyer from 70ft or more. [...] slow enough airspeed to keep you in even if you panick, a coach, John Suiter, at your side constantly, flying with you. [...] We teach people to tuck & roll if you are ejected from the column. But honestly most people slide out so slowly that they simply stand up. [...]The net isn't bouncy like a trampoline, it's more like a trapeze net.. [..] I hope that answers your questions for you! Perhaps we'll share some air someday! Yes good answers, thanks very much! Hope to get there someday. --Scratch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #12 December 13, 2004 Quote>you most likely end up unstable and dropping out anyways Droping out in Skyventure hurts... Or so does attempting a front flip when someone is really motioning to keep going... Ha ha ha, I just started with the front flips in the tunnel. Aparently I wanted long past when I was ready for them but man they were fun. I didn't hit anything though but I'm sure it would have hurt.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base698 1 #13 December 14, 2004 That is actually my concern due to the way the air is controlled at the tunnel. If it was a small girl that was way arched then suddenly popped up a problem could arise. I could see someone breaking their neck if they fall out of the column head first. In skyventure i've seen small girls suddenly dearch, pop up 10 ft, and then slam into the wall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #14 December 19, 2004 Instructors have told me, in order to get any considerable distance above the glass, you have to have alot of momentum already going when you reach the top of it. Otherwise you'll stop going higher just above the glass where the tunnel start to widen up because of the pressure drop there. I've gone up about 4' higher than the glass in boxman, but only to the top of the glass in mantis. The air stream seems very uniform within the entire glassed portion. If the operator gives you more air than you can handle, you'll tend to float up just to the top of the glass and stay there. They say the best air is 3-4 feet above the net, but it seems to me to be all good between the net and the top of the glass. There is one problem, a design flaw, that they acknowledge. That is, when ever someone flies in frount of a door, the air speed in the whole chamber drops 10-15mph, then goes back to normal as soon as they move away from the door. Considering the air speed drop and how many injuries how occured around the doors, it would seem like a good idea for skyventure do design closing flight chamber doors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base698 1 #15 December 19, 2004 I'm not talking about skyventure. I'm talking about the L1. Two different animals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #16 December 19, 2004 QuoteThere is one problem, a design flaw, that they acknowledge. That is, when ever someone flies in frount of a door, the air speed in the whole chamber drops 10-15mph, then goes back to normal as soon as they move away from the door. Considering the air speed drop and how many injuries how occured around the doors, it would seem like a good idea for skyventure do design closing flight chamber doors. I have flown in skyventure tunnels, and that doesn't seem neccessary at all. However, I am no "expert" or coach, so please take my comments with a grain of salt. Any air changes/variations during a tunnel flight or even within a skydive should be able to be (hopefully) easily countered by the flyers. We are always adapting to any variations within an actual skydive, anyway. You don't just fly to a slot/grip and stop flying your body once you get there. You are always flying your body. It's constant work and slight variations within the tunnel's atmosphere should be no-brainers. Sometimes, within tunnel 4-way, some of the flyers' even get close enough to the door to have a leg slip out a bit, but the group keeps flying, usually without any noticeable delays at all. Anyway, I personally do not notice when someone is in front of the door. I also do not feel that my flying suffers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #17 December 19, 2004 Quotedue to the way the air is controlled at the tunnel This is an interesting statement in itself, considering you haven't had the privelege of seeing any real students learning in the [AAC] tunnel. You and your guest were already well established for the most part and required little supervision. Also comparing AAC's teaching technique to the one Skyventure uses now is like comparing apples & oranges. Additionally, the SkyVenture experience bears little resemblance to outdoor tunnels, since the entire process & system is different. It's easy in an enclosed tunnel to turn up the air with no consideration to the skill level of the students, however, in an open tunnel, like Flyaway, Lifted Entertainmnet, AAC, Powerflyte, Vertical Velocity (and the list goes on) students aren't given enough airspeed to get any height until they demonstrate control (or are in a harness). Also, recovery positions, such as tuck & roll are taught to students in open air tunnels, and in the case of AAC, the net was designed for taking a fall (as explained in a previous post here) Also, about the neck breaking thing.. This is possible in ANY wind tunnel configuration, wall to wall, open air or not. It's a dangerous sport regardless of the tunnel setup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #18 December 19, 2004 Sounds like I gotta try the L1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base698 1 #19 December 19, 2004 I know, but I was just curious, because the L1 is quite different then both Skyventure and Flyaway. It has its own unique set of risk. Its will be exciting to see how all the instruction and policies develop there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #20 December 19, 2004 Does Alan, the director of the the NCSL, have anything to do with the L1. When he was here in Orlando with the Fox Force girls, he mentioned that he had his own tunnel. I was wondering if that's what he meant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #21 December 20, 2004 Quoteit would seem like a good idea for skyventure do design closing flight chamber doors. Thus traping someone inside the chamber? Or restricting the instructor from getting in the chamber to rescue someone when needed? Naw, the exits need to be there in case of trouble.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #22 December 20, 2004 Hi Avion, No Alan involved with L1 in North Carolina, which besides the military is the only tunnel operating in N.C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #23 December 20, 2004 >It's easy in an enclosed tunnel to turn up the air with no consideration to > the skill level of the students . . . This is literally true in both sorts of tunnels. >students aren't given enough airspeed to get any height until they >demonstrate control. This is true in practice in both sorts of tunnels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #24 December 21, 2004 QuoteThis is literally true in both sorts of tunnels. I'd have to disagree with you strongly on that, and to avoid confusion, I will be specific. It is the FIRST priorities of any of the following wind tunnels with new students to: #1 Never let a student be alone in the air.. instructors don't stand by and watch, they are in the air, standing & flying with the student AT ALL TIMES #2 Not to provide any more airspeed than is necessary than to bring a student 3-6 feet off the net, with an instructor at their side. Those tunnels in the U.S. are: Adren-L-N,TX Appalachian Amusement Center,NC Flyaway Indoor Skydiving,TN Flyaway Indoor Skydiving,NV Lifted Entertainment, HI Vertical Velocity,ID VR Skydiving, MI and although SkyVenture Orlando started out with a very similar approach to student flyers.. today their instruction technique is quite different. Of course, since they are mostly booked with jumpers, less constant monitoring is usually necessary. When you fly whuffos nearly all the time at a tunnel, much more attention to detail is required. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #25 December 21, 2004 Quoteand although SkyVenture Orlando started out with a very similar approach to student flyers.. today their instruction technique is quite different. Of course, since they are mostly booked with jumpers, less constant monitoring is usually necessary. When you fly whuffos nearly all the time at a tunnel, much more attention to detail is required. You obviously have a personal and financial bias agains Skyventure and the Tunnels they encompas. What is not so obvious is that you have no idea about the training and progression used to teach in them. Stop.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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diablopilot 2 #4 December 11, 2004 QuoteThe design of the SkyVenture, simply creates an "optimal" test section, which is where we all end up naturally, above the windows, not down toward the net, although you will find that the optimal area changes, depending on how many people are in the tunnel. Not entirely true. The column of air is pretty continuous from the net to about 15 feet up. The vertical position of a flyer or flyers within that column can esily be controled by a) the jumper's body position, and/or b) the speed of the tunnel's 5 fans.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #5 December 11, 2004 Quote You either don't know or don't wish to share the facts about the "SkyVenture" type of tunnel. I'm not really sure what you mean about either comment, I spent a great deal of time, at the Orlando site as it was being constructed, in addition to lots of time spent discussing the workings with the designing engineer, even shared a house with him in Celebration, FL, during the final phases of construction, and into the opening months. Most everyone will find that they stay at the top of the air.. this is where the constant speed you speak of in the approx. 15ft begins to slow down as the chamber opens out to the fans. This is the area above the windows where it is natural to hover. Of course you can fly down into the lower area, of course the speed will affect this as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #6 December 11, 2004 QuoteMost everyone will find that they stay at the top of the air.. Simply not true. When controling in the tunnel, it is elementry to be able to put a flyer with a netral (read not changing) body position at what ever height you wish simply by changing the speed. QuoteI spent a great deal of time, at the Orlando site as it was being constructed, in addition to lots of time spent discussing the workings with the designing engineer, even shared a house with him in Celebration, FL, during the final phases of construction, and into the opening months. The design is considerably changed from what it was. The fans are no longer variable pitch, but instead variable speed, a MUCH more responsive system. Note I altered my original post for what could have been interperated ad "antagonistic" flavor. Not my intent.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #7 December 11, 2004 QuoteMost everyone will find that they stay at the top of the air.. QuoteSimply not true. Perhaps, but in the case of the original post, the experience was certainly similar and certianly not uncommon. (and referred to Orlando) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #8 December 11, 2004 QuoteWhen I had some coached tunnel time in Orlando last year, I found myself spending a lot of time waaay up near the top, and bouncing off the walls. could it be that you "felt" as though you were near "the top" when in actuality you were flying near or at the top of the glass? i worked at skyventure for a few years and they don't let people fly that high above the glass because: 1. most people CAN'T fly much higher than 10-15 feet (inside the 42-foot tall column) and that's PUSHING it. and 2. they don't allow people that high and will adjust the speed accordingly to keep you in the effective flying area (between the floor and the top of the glass). you really have to know what you're doing or be light as a feather to sustain flight a few feet above the glass for any length of time and if you find yourself there and you "bounce off the walls", you most likely end up unstable and dropping out anyways. just wanted some clarification because sometimes perception can change if you're not used to being in there. FWIW, when i freefly in a larger suit and i end up on my belly to start a headdown outfacing carve, i fly about 4-5 feet above the glass then work my way down into the glassed area...and that's topped out (high speed). i would have to seriously work to sustain flight higher than that in a relaxed, belly to earth position...and i've got a bunch of time in there. when training 4-way in the tunnel, teams fly about 3-5 feet off the bottom. enjoy your flights and i, for one, am looking forward to getting into the L-1 tunnel and learning a few things there as well. it's all about flying your body... blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #9 December 11, 2004 >you most likely end up unstable and dropping out anyways Droping out in Skyventure hurts... Or so does attempting a front flip when someone is really motioning to keep going... Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScratchTX 0 #10 December 11, 2004 Quote could it be that you "felt" as though you were near "the top" when in actuality you were flying near or at the top of the glass? yes, most likely. I know I did shoot some distance up above the glass a few times, but generally I was probably going only just above it when it felt as if I was going "way up there." And most of the bouncing around off the walls was at the glass level or lower, true. Quote you really have to know what you're doing that wouldn't be meQuote or be light as a feather not really -- 110 lbs but I had on about 10 lbs of weight, so 120, and my skydiving fall rate is slow/average, not super slow. Quoteto sustain flight a few feet above the glass for any length of time and if you find yourself there and you "bounce off the walls", you most likely end up unstable and dropping out anyways. just wanted some clarification because sometimes perception can change if you're not used to being in there. Oh yeah! Actually when I review the tape I realize that my perception was worse than the reality... the first round through was pretty pitiful but by the 3rd or 4th I actually was getting some minimal control. The memory of it is worse than it was, really. Going to the point of exhaustion, and also slamming my head into the top of the doorframe on an exit and losing my hearing for ten minutes/wondering if I had perma-tweaked my neck, kind of colored my memory of the experience. It was humbling indeed, and quite frustrating. They say skydiving in 90% mental, and the tunnel really brought that home! Quote i would have to seriously work to sustain flight higher than that in a relaxed, belly to earth position... emphasis mine. :>) Quoteenjoy your flights and i, for one, am looking forward to getting into the L-1 tunnel and learning a few things there as well. it's all about flying your body... I hope to get to the L-1 tunnel sometime, too. But lately I am barely getting to the dropzone so it might be a while. Thanks for the perspective --Scratch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScratchTX 0 #11 December 11, 2004 QuoteHello ScratchTX, Let me answer a couple of your questions for you. [...] [...] 50 foot net was designed specifically for catching a stunt flyer from 70ft or more. [...] slow enough airspeed to keep you in even if you panick, a coach, John Suiter, at your side constantly, flying with you. [...] We teach people to tuck & roll if you are ejected from the column. But honestly most people slide out so slowly that they simply stand up. [...]The net isn't bouncy like a trampoline, it's more like a trapeze net.. [..] I hope that answers your questions for you! Perhaps we'll share some air someday! Yes good answers, thanks very much! Hope to get there someday. --Scratch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #12 December 13, 2004 Quote>you most likely end up unstable and dropping out anyways Droping out in Skyventure hurts... Or so does attempting a front flip when someone is really motioning to keep going... Ha ha ha, I just started with the front flips in the tunnel. Aparently I wanted long past when I was ready for them but man they were fun. I didn't hit anything though but I'm sure it would have hurt.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 1 #13 December 14, 2004 That is actually my concern due to the way the air is controlled at the tunnel. If it was a small girl that was way arched then suddenly popped up a problem could arise. I could see someone breaking their neck if they fall out of the column head first. In skyventure i've seen small girls suddenly dearch, pop up 10 ft, and then slam into the wall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #14 December 19, 2004 Instructors have told me, in order to get any considerable distance above the glass, you have to have alot of momentum already going when you reach the top of it. Otherwise you'll stop going higher just above the glass where the tunnel start to widen up because of the pressure drop there. I've gone up about 4' higher than the glass in boxman, but only to the top of the glass in mantis. The air stream seems very uniform within the entire glassed portion. If the operator gives you more air than you can handle, you'll tend to float up just to the top of the glass and stay there. They say the best air is 3-4 feet above the net, but it seems to me to be all good between the net and the top of the glass. There is one problem, a design flaw, that they acknowledge. That is, when ever someone flies in frount of a door, the air speed in the whole chamber drops 10-15mph, then goes back to normal as soon as they move away from the door. Considering the air speed drop and how many injuries how occured around the doors, it would seem like a good idea for skyventure do design closing flight chamber doors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 1 #15 December 19, 2004 I'm not talking about skyventure. I'm talking about the L1. Two different animals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #16 December 19, 2004 QuoteThere is one problem, a design flaw, that they acknowledge. That is, when ever someone flies in frount of a door, the air speed in the whole chamber drops 10-15mph, then goes back to normal as soon as they move away from the door. Considering the air speed drop and how many injuries how occured around the doors, it would seem like a good idea for skyventure do design closing flight chamber doors. I have flown in skyventure tunnels, and that doesn't seem neccessary at all. However, I am no "expert" or coach, so please take my comments with a grain of salt. Any air changes/variations during a tunnel flight or even within a skydive should be able to be (hopefully) easily countered by the flyers. We are always adapting to any variations within an actual skydive, anyway. You don't just fly to a slot/grip and stop flying your body once you get there. You are always flying your body. It's constant work and slight variations within the tunnel's atmosphere should be no-brainers. Sometimes, within tunnel 4-way, some of the flyers' even get close enough to the door to have a leg slip out a bit, but the group keeps flying, usually without any noticeable delays at all. Anyway, I personally do not notice when someone is in front of the door. I also do not feel that my flying suffers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #17 December 19, 2004 Quotedue to the way the air is controlled at the tunnel This is an interesting statement in itself, considering you haven't had the privelege of seeing any real students learning in the [AAC] tunnel. You and your guest were already well established for the most part and required little supervision. Also comparing AAC's teaching technique to the one Skyventure uses now is like comparing apples & oranges. Additionally, the SkyVenture experience bears little resemblance to outdoor tunnels, since the entire process & system is different. It's easy in an enclosed tunnel to turn up the air with no consideration to the skill level of the students, however, in an open tunnel, like Flyaway, Lifted Entertainmnet, AAC, Powerflyte, Vertical Velocity (and the list goes on) students aren't given enough airspeed to get any height until they demonstrate control (or are in a harness). Also, recovery positions, such as tuck & roll are taught to students in open air tunnels, and in the case of AAC, the net was designed for taking a fall (as explained in a previous post here) Also, about the neck breaking thing.. This is possible in ANY wind tunnel configuration, wall to wall, open air or not. It's a dangerous sport regardless of the tunnel setup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #18 December 19, 2004 Sounds like I gotta try the L1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base698 1 #19 December 19, 2004 I know, but I was just curious, because the L1 is quite different then both Skyventure and Flyaway. It has its own unique set of risk. Its will be exciting to see how all the instruction and policies develop there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #20 December 19, 2004 Does Alan, the director of the the NCSL, have anything to do with the L1. When he was here in Orlando with the Fox Force girls, he mentioned that he had his own tunnel. I was wondering if that's what he meant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #21 December 20, 2004 Quoteit would seem like a good idea for skyventure do design closing flight chamber doors. Thus traping someone inside the chamber? Or restricting the instructor from getting in the chamber to rescue someone when needed? Naw, the exits need to be there in case of trouble.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #22 December 20, 2004 Hi Avion, No Alan involved with L1 in North Carolina, which besides the military is the only tunnel operating in N.C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #23 December 20, 2004 >It's easy in an enclosed tunnel to turn up the air with no consideration to > the skill level of the students . . . This is literally true in both sorts of tunnels. >students aren't given enough airspeed to get any height until they >demonstrate control. This is true in practice in both sorts of tunnels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #24 December 21, 2004 QuoteThis is literally true in both sorts of tunnels. I'd have to disagree with you strongly on that, and to avoid confusion, I will be specific. It is the FIRST priorities of any of the following wind tunnels with new students to: #1 Never let a student be alone in the air.. instructors don't stand by and watch, they are in the air, standing & flying with the student AT ALL TIMES #2 Not to provide any more airspeed than is necessary than to bring a student 3-6 feet off the net, with an instructor at their side. Those tunnels in the U.S. are: Adren-L-N,TX Appalachian Amusement Center,NC Flyaway Indoor Skydiving,TN Flyaway Indoor Skydiving,NV Lifted Entertainment, HI Vertical Velocity,ID VR Skydiving, MI and although SkyVenture Orlando started out with a very similar approach to student flyers.. today their instruction technique is quite different. Of course, since they are mostly booked with jumpers, less constant monitoring is usually necessary. When you fly whuffos nearly all the time at a tunnel, much more attention to detail is required. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #25 December 21, 2004 Quoteand although SkyVenture Orlando started out with a very similar approach to student flyers.. today their instruction technique is quite different. Of course, since they are mostly booked with jumpers, less constant monitoring is usually necessary. When you fly whuffos nearly all the time at a tunnel, much more attention to detail is required. You obviously have a personal and financial bias agains Skyventure and the Tunnels they encompas. What is not so obvious is that you have no idea about the training and progression used to teach in them. Stop.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
base698 1 #19 December 19, 2004 I know, but I was just curious, because the L1 is quite different then both Skyventure and Flyaway. It has its own unique set of risk. Its will be exciting to see how all the instruction and policies develop there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #20 December 19, 2004 Does Alan, the director of the the NCSL, have anything to do with the L1. When he was here in Orlando with the Fox Force girls, he mentioned that he had his own tunnel. I was wondering if that's what he meant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 December 20, 2004 Quoteit would seem like a good idea for skyventure do design closing flight chamber doors. Thus traping someone inside the chamber? Or restricting the instructor from getting in the chamber to rescue someone when needed? Naw, the exits need to be there in case of trouble.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #22 December 20, 2004 Hi Avion, No Alan involved with L1 in North Carolina, which besides the military is the only tunnel operating in N.C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #23 December 20, 2004 >It's easy in an enclosed tunnel to turn up the air with no consideration to > the skill level of the students . . . This is literally true in both sorts of tunnels. >students aren't given enough airspeed to get any height until they >demonstrate control. This is true in practice in both sorts of tunnels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #24 December 21, 2004 QuoteThis is literally true in both sorts of tunnels. I'd have to disagree with you strongly on that, and to avoid confusion, I will be specific. It is the FIRST priorities of any of the following wind tunnels with new students to: #1 Never let a student be alone in the air.. instructors don't stand by and watch, they are in the air, standing & flying with the student AT ALL TIMES #2 Not to provide any more airspeed than is necessary than to bring a student 3-6 feet off the net, with an instructor at their side. Those tunnels in the U.S. are: Adren-L-N,TX Appalachian Amusement Center,NC Flyaway Indoor Skydiving,TN Flyaway Indoor Skydiving,NV Lifted Entertainment, HI Vertical Velocity,ID VR Skydiving, MI and although SkyVenture Orlando started out with a very similar approach to student flyers.. today their instruction technique is quite different. Of course, since they are mostly booked with jumpers, less constant monitoring is usually necessary. When you fly whuffos nearly all the time at a tunnel, much more attention to detail is required. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #25 December 21, 2004 Quoteand although SkyVenture Orlando started out with a very similar approach to student flyers.. today their instruction technique is quite different. Of course, since they are mostly booked with jumpers, less constant monitoring is usually necessary. When you fly whuffos nearly all the time at a tunnel, much more attention to detail is required. You obviously have a personal and financial bias agains Skyventure and the Tunnels they encompas. What is not so obvious is that you have no idea about the training and progression used to teach in them. Stop.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
