Horseshoe malfunction for STUDENT

[Jumpjonno 0]

Just an enquiry about what different dropzones teach STUDENTS to do with a horseshoe malfunction. I'm talking a pilotchute or and bridal wrapped around the arm, leg, head or gear. The canopy is still in the bag and bag is either in the container or out with some lines deployed.

Thanks in advance

Jonno

[dragon2 2]

Try and get rid of it twice or until hard deck, whichever comes first, then perform full reserve procedure.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[AndyMan 7]

Try twice to free the pilot chute and deal with any resulting malfunction. Maintain altitude awareness, and pull your reserve at the hard deck if necessary.

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[spootch 0]

Quote

Try twice to free the pilot chute and deal with any resulting malfunction. Maintain altitude awareness, and pull your reserve at the hard deck if necessary.

and pray...

[Jumpjonno 0]

Anyone heard of telling your student to remove their RSL, then clearing your risers before cutting away and deploying your reserve..?

Just a question one of our instructors asked me. Said she taught this at her old dropzone. sounds a little difficult to do if you are a student. Trying to find your RSL while plummeting to your death pilotchute round your arm. Ive seen some tandem instructors not be able to find their RSL on a system check during drogue fall...!

Our drills are similar to what has already been posted. Try to remove twice and if you cant then cutawayand pull your reserve....

Any other options out there.?

Jonno

[dontsplatmatt 0]

Quote

Anyone heard of telling your student to remove their RSL, then clearing your risers before cutting away and deploying your reserve..?

I'm not an instructor, but that seems like a waste of precious altitude for anyone not just a student. The chance of preventing something by doing that doesn't seem to outweigh the lost altitude.

[TiaDanger 0]

So it seems like the general consensus for a student is to try and clear their pilot chute twice, and if that fails, go silver at their hard deck.

My question is, would you as an instructor do the same thing if you had a horseshoe? Whats the difference in what you tell the student to do and how you would handle it yourself? Newb here, trying to learn all that I can on handling malfunctions.

Edited to add that the two try on pc is what I would do as well...just seeing if there is a more accepted way of doing it off of student status.

And for the record: the appropriate ranking of cool modes of transportation is jet pack, hover board, transporter, Batmobile, and THEN giant ant.
D.S. #8.8

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Anyone heard of telling your student to remove their RSL, then clearing your risers before cutting away and deploying your reserve..?

No. Disconnecting your RSL is not a part of any emergency procedure that I either teach, or practice myself. It certainly is not something I would want to hear people advocating in a high speed malfunction. During a first-jump-course, where the students retention ability is already being stretched, teaching something like this seems like an odd choice indeed.

When I teach emergency procedures, the KISS principle is supreme.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

My question is, would you as an instructor do the same thing if you had a horseshoe? Whats the difference in what you tell the student to do and how you would handle it yourself? Newb here, trying to learn all that I can on handling malfunctions.

I don't know what you'd do otherwise, so yeah - that's my plan.

There have been a small number of fatalities where people have died trying to fix a simple problem. I can think of people who went in trying to fix their pilot-chute in toe, pulling on their bridle. Just like a Horseshoe, there's a simple procedure to save your life - pull your reserve.

Contrary, I can't think of many fatalities where firing a reserve into a horseshoe didn't work. I know there was one in Hawaii a long time ago, but there just isn't enough of a pattern to show it's a bad choice.

Horseshoe malfunctions have become very rare as container manufacturers have done a better job securing the bridle and pin protection has improved. Out of sequence deployments are very rare. If once does happen, fixing it by deploying or freeing the pilot chute is usually an easy fix. Being in the situation where you need to deploy your reserve is even more rare.

Best advice? Avoid the problem by keeping your closing loops and spandex pouch in good shape. Keep your pilot chute well-stowed until pull time, and give a strong throw when the time comes.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[spootch 0]

Quote

Quote

Anyone heard of telling your student to remove their RSL, then clearing your risers before cutting away and deploying your reserve..?

I'm not an instructor, but that seems like a waste of precious altitude for anyone not just a student. The chance of preventing something by doing that doesn't seem to outweigh the lost altitude.

Un hooking an rsl becomes moot once you pull silver. If the flailing man bag hasnt pulled it and shot the reserve during the mal, pulling silver will disarm it (not that you need it at this point). I also don't think i'd spend till my hard deck waiting to do EP's. if i cant fix it i'm pullin both handles and dealin with what comes next using whats left of my altitude to get a good reserve over my head. It's a nasty mal....nasty.

[popsjumper 2]

AndyMan. You are addressing only 1 type of horseshoe - the premature deployment.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

So it seems like the general consensus for a student is to try and clear their pilot chute twice, and if that fails, go silver at their hard deck.

Incorrect.

Please note that there is more than one type of horseshoe (HS) mal.
One is the premature deployment
What about bridle or lines connected to you in any place? Think about THAT and you'll understand why a HS mal is our worst nightmare.

My definition of a HS mal:
After deployment, any time a parachute is connected to you in more than one place, you have a HS malfunction.
The only legitimate point of contact is the risers which count as one point of contact.

The only proper procedure for dealing with any HS mal is:
1. Check altitude.
2. Remove the second point of contact if you can.
3. If you can't remove it, cutaway and deploy your reserve by USPA recommended Decision Altitude of 2500 ft.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

My question is, would you as an instructor do the same thing if you had a horseshoe? Whats the difference in what you tell the student to do and how you would handle it yourself? .

Students are taught the safest methods for THEM for THEIR skill level.

You will find that as you progress, as you become more familiar with your gear, as you become more comfortable in the sky and as you gain general knowledge, you may be re-training yourself for different procedures with respect to some aspects of skydiving.

One example is line twists. Right now, you spread the risers and kick out (or some variation thereof). When you start flying those radical HP hot rods, it will probably be a quick cutaway instead.

Another example is freefall body position. We teach students the box position. Later you'll other positions.

Another example (which I personally don't agree with in toto) is the above mentioned emergency procedure KISS principle.
Some teach "no matter what the problem, if you can't fix it, cutaway and deploy the reserve." Later we learn better ways to handle some situations.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tkhayes 300]

try once to fix it, try twice to fix it, go immediately to plan B, cutaway and reserve.

For a student - that is about all they need to know

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

try once to fix it, try twice to fix it, go immediately to plan B, cutaway and reserve.

For a student - that is about all they need to know

I would at least teach them to monitor their altitude while "fixing it". Their fix attempt on a high-speed mal may be 20 seconds long, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[obelixtim 147]

Cutting away will often clear the hookup anyway.

Students need to be trained to go for their EPs as soon as a problem is evident. Two quick kicks is enough of an attempt to clear.

Students are most vulnerable, so any instruction has to be simple and unambiguous. Freebagged reserves have increased the survival rate in entanglement situations.

The instructor who is telling students to disconnect the RSL during a high speed malfunction should have their rating revoked and sent back to instructor school. What absolute nonsense to be telling a novice.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Bertt 0]

In the U.S. all students must have an AAD. It would probably fire while the student is trying to find and disconnect the RSL, rendering that procedure moot.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

In the U.S. all students must have an AAD. It would probably fire while the student is trying to find and disconnect the RSL, rendering that procedure moot.

I thought only the USPA required the AADs for students, not the FAA?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Bertt 0]

Actually, it's a little of both. FAA requires AAD for tandems
(that's in part 105), USPA requires AAD for students (that's in the BSRs under parachute equipment). So if you're at one of the few non-USPA dropzones in America, I guess you can go ahead and work on that RSL without worrying about the AAD firing before you hit the ground.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[mircan 0]

Quote

The instructor who is telling students to disconnect the RSL during a high speed malfunction should have their rating revoked and sent back to instructor school. What absolute nonsense to be telling a novice.

What about if the national regulations says that this is the right procedure? So it`s mandatory for every skydiving school? Yes, it sucks.

dudeist skydiver #42

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

The only legitimate point of contact is the risers which count as one point of contact.

The only proper procedure for dealing with any HS mal is:
1. Check altitude.
2. Remove the second point of contact if you can.
3. If you can't remove it, cutaway and deploy your reserve by USPA recommended Decision Altitude of 2500 ft.

This mal is the second most frightening for me to think of, second to a wrap.

My training was inline with all the others. Two attempts to clear or hard deck and then handles.

Question: Considering the possibility of main/reserve entaglement if the mal is not cleared. Is it best to try to clear until hard deck instead of two tries or hard deck (first of the two)?

To clarify, when referring to the "best" method I'm thinking for someone off student status as I agree that KISS training works best with so much info to process at the time.

[Skyper 0]

Quote

Quote

The instructor who is telling students to disconnect the RSL during a high speed malfunction should have their rating revoked and sent back to instructor school. What absolute nonsense to be telling a novice.

What about if the national regulations says that this is the right procedure? So it`s mandatory for every skydiving school? Yes, it sucks.

Ever thought about petition or something simmilar for changing that regulation?

And of course those things used to attach ripcord to the container maybe it's good idea to request the prohibition of it as well... just refer to that last fatal accident in Cenej in 2008 and similar cases elsewhere.

Maybe it's interesting to see this video and time he required to manualy release the risers. I don't know if he released the RSL as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBzgMIdtJm0

[mircan 0]

Quote

Ever thought about petition or something simmilar for changing that regulation?

It was tried, chances are slim that it`s going to happen. People who decide about such things are very rigid, oldfashioned and out of touch with modern practices in sport. Just covering their asses.

Quote

And of course those things used to attach ripcord to the container maybe it's good idea to request the prohibition of it as well...

It was already prohibited in our SIM way before that happened...

dudeist skydiver #42

[dninness 4]

I've wound up doing a few recurrencies for students this year, and of course, a good bit of that involves emergency procedures review.

I teach the old "One, two, fuck you" method. Try twice to clear the pilot chute/bridle from where its still attached (ie. in the BOC pouch or wrapped around your arm/wrist/foot/mother-in-law's neck/etc). If successful in clearing that part, you *might* get a good deployment, but you should expect another sort of malfunction (tension knots, lineover, baglock, whatever) that you'll have to cut away from and deploy the reserve. If unable to clear the pilot chute/bridle after two tries, execute a cutaway & reserve deployment.

I try to avoid suggesting to just blindly clear that bridle/pilot chute and then immediately cutting away and deploy the reserve, since you *could* get a good deployment of the main (depending on the type of situation that precipitated the horseshoe) and I think its a bad idea to chop a good parachute. If you clear the bridle/pilot chute (or whatever else has created the horseshoe), now you potentially have a "regular" malfunction to deal with....

Thoughts?

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[hchunter614 0]

In the FJCs that I teach I also mention that they should expect another malfunction if they are able to clear the horseshoe and to be ready to either try to fix it (if above the hard deck) or execute EPs if at or below the hard deck.