Questions about AFF instruction

[stratostar 5]

At your dz:

1.what is the seating config for LV 1 w/video in a 182?

2.How do you teach COA's & short circles?

3. what is the hard deck for Lv1? & Pull priorities?

4. What is the decision altitude?

5. Would ever have a LV 1, 2 or 3 student next to an open door with out a grip or restraint?

I know what the SIMS says and I know what the course I attended trained, so save me the read your SIMS BS, I want to hear from others in the "real world" as to what is the industry standard in 2009.

Some one like DSE who just attended Jay Stokes course, speak up.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[peek 20]

At your dz:

1.what is the seating config for LV 1 w/video in a 182?

Video person back to dash, student behind pilot facing rear, right side instructor facing rear in video persons "lap".

2.How do you teach COA's & short circles?

The first time after exit, wait for instructors to have time to look at body position and give hand signals, and then nod yes, after that, just tell them to glance in direction of instructors.

3. what is the hard deck for Lv1? & Pull priorities?

On right side we want to see student or instructor pull by 4000. Any lower and the instructors and video wind up opening lower than we like. Left side instructor pull by 3500 if things are really going that badly.

4. What is the decision altitude?

For any instructional method? 2000 or 2500. As long as they have an altitude in their mind and know not to go below it.

5. Would ever have a LV 1, 2 or 3 student next to an open door with out a grip or restraint?

No it doesn't bother me in a C182. It takes enough effort and time for the student to get out that it is easy to get a grip.

In a larger aircraft, it depends on the student. "Know your student."

[tdog 0]

I don't do 182. I only have a few 206 and all higher levels. Rest king air and otter...

1. n/a

2. COA: Circle of Awareness.... Horizon, look to the horizon and pick something way out in the distance to look at. Altitude. Look to your alti and read it. Look to your instructor on that side and smile. Wait for a thumbs up. Look to the other instructor and stick out your tongue. Thumbs up....

I found recently that really emphasizing that they should geek their instructor relaxes them and lets them know that this is not super intense, but that communication can be two way and this is a moment of communication.

Short circles. After teaching 200+ students in 25+ fjc - I stopped calling them short circles in lecture but still have the term in the training videos and paperwork... I found it too similar to COA - and the students were doing full circle and I was reteaching too often. So I instead call it "geek and have fun time" "This is your time to look and find something cool to look at, check your alti, then look out again."


3. Hard deck.... I assume you mean when the instructors pull. Well, we teach 5.5K for wave and pull. I have pulled for the student right at 5.5K and given the pull signal higher knowing they were out to lunch. I have also let the student go to 4K without assisting or reminding them. Someone who is out to lunch the entire skydive vs someone who fumbled a tad finding the handle but was doing everything right and just needed a tad of time to learn... I think the actual hard deck is instructor discretion, but I think we all are going to be really concerned at 4K if things are not happening.

Pull priorities... I printed a few years back the USPA SIM priorities word for word and put that on the wall. PULL, PULL RIGHT ALTI, PULL STABLE.

4. Decision alti - I assume you mean when we teach a student they should have a working canopy or get a new one....

5. In an Otter and King Air, yes... I mean, not right in the door... But on the bench right next to the door.

[stratostar 5]

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No it doesn't bother me in a C182. It takes enough effort and time for the student to get out that it is easy to get a grip.

Depends on where their sitting in the plane, now wouldn't it and just how fast you can pick up the grip from where your sitting in the AC.

It would seem we're on the same page, other then the above open door policy. For my reasons for asking such questions, if the seating is "standard" as you posted the reserve side would always have "control over the student" from the time the the door opens.

Also having the student in the "standard" seating config, allows the instructor talk to/work with and read the student on the ride up.

I would still like to hear from one of the current CD's or DSE as to the current course standards for earning a rating to the above questions, some instructors might need to learn and understand this info.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DSE 3]

Stratostar, I don't have anything to add past what Gary wrote...we didn't train in 182's, all my AFF training has been in KingAir, Caravan, or Otter. We *discussed* and did a fast mock-up on the 182. We never sat in a 182 mockup to determine which is best for instructor/student conversation.
I'm the wrong guy to be looking to for "good, experienced info" about 182 exits and AFF.
I'd like to know more about 182 exits in the event I'll ever be at a DZ that uses 182's for students.

[stratostar 5]

What gary wrote about seating in a 182 is S.O.P. and should be the industry standard, video or no video, for a number of reasons. Thanks for the reply.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[peregrinerose 0]

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At your dz:

1.what is the seating config for LV 1 w/video in a 182?

2.How do you teach COA's & short circles?

3. what is the hard deck for Lv1? & Pull priorities?

4. What is the decision altitude?

5. Would ever have a LV 1, 2 or 3 student next to an open door with out a grip or restraint?

I know what the SIMS says and I know what the course I attended trained, so save me the read your SIMS BS, I want to hear from others in the "real world" as to what is the industry standard in 2009.

Some one like DSE who just attended Jay Stokes course, speak up.

1. and 5. At the DZ I am at, student sits beside the pilot, back to the dash. Main side instructror between their legs. Video behind pilot, reserve side in tail. For exit, main side instructor has grip on student, video swings out and hangs from rear of door after main side spots and gives ok, then climbout as usual. Although student is beside open door, there is always someone with a hand on them... first main instructor, then reserve when main is climbing out.

All the rest is the same as Gary's answer.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[stratostar 5]

If I understand you correct, the video climbs out rear float behind the main side JM who is blocking up good part of the door by sitting between the legs of the student, next to the pilot.

Not saying it's wrong, to each their own, myself, I wouldn't want to be the video or the main side on those loads.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

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If I understand you correct, the video climbs out rear float behind the main side JM who is blocking up good part of the door by sitting between the legs of the student, next to the pilot.

I would not attempt that climbout. With camera wings w/swoop cords, and all the cameras (and on/off buttons) on my head, I'm not getting in to any situation where I have to squeeze past anyone.

I have always used the above mentioned SOP in a Cessna. As far as spotting goes, any video person with the experince to be jumping with AFF students should have the ability to spot a Cessna with one group exiting. It's not that hard.

Having the student back-to-dash also limits the involvement of the reserve side JM. They are in the back of the plane, separated from the student by the main side JM. They are not able to participate in a review of the dive flow, or hand signals, nor can they play a part in any of the gear check.

It seems like a much better use of available resources to have the student seated behind the pilot. The main side JM to their left, and the reserve side JM is facing them, allowing both to contribute during the ride to altitude.

It seems like such a simple concept - load the plane in the oppposite order of the climbout. Last out is first in, and vice-versa.

[riggerrob 558]

Progressive Freefall is done slightly different.y in Canada.
First, since they are rarely first-timers, we rarely take video. If we did take video, they would either fly rear float or hang under the step/strut.

In a Cessna 182, the main-side instructor sits with his back to the instrument panel. The student sits between his knees and the reserve-side instructor sits with his back to the pilot's seat. The reserve-side instructor is in an excellent position to discuss the dive during the ride up.
About 9,000 feet, everyone puts on goggles and helmets and most of them turn around to face forward.
Just before the door opens, the reserve-side instructor grabs the student's left leg strap.
The main-side instructor spots, asks "Are you ready to skydive?"
"Yup!" from student.
"Follow me out"
As soon as the student puts his right foot on the step, the main-side instructor grabs his right leg strap.

[riggerrob 558]

5. Since all of our airplanes have inflight doors, instructors usually have a leg strap grip before the door opens.
Sometimes - on later levels from King Air - I will climb out rear floater, then tell the student to swing his hip out the door, pause while I take the leg strap grip, then finish his climb out.

[riggerrob 558]

2. Circle of Awareness is look at the main-side instructor and react to his signal, same with reserve-side instructor.
Look at altimeter and yell altitude.
Look at the horizon out front.

Short circles are similar, but skip looking at the reserve-side instructor.

On release dives, they are taught to just check altitude and look at the horizon out front.

[stratostar 5]

Everything you wrote is spot on and how most places (95%) I have worked operate. While some places do have their local flavor added to the mix, it's mostly simple stuff such as landing patterns or exit orders or not teaching toe taps or something. But as we see from the replies here some Instructors/places really do it or somethings way different then the industry standard pratice.

Seems to me, as I thought I would find when I posted this, most people around the country & parts of Canada are all on the same page when teaching AFF jumps. At least that has been my experiance in working the small dz's to very large dz's in the last 5 years or so.

If I'm not mistaken the USPA CD's are all teaching (for the most part) the same info and curriculum so that we have an industry standard for all rated AFF I's to operate by, there for if I walk on to Skydive the Farm it's the same over all as what I find when I walk on to Skydive City or Pecos parachute school, as in my case I found that to be 100% true at those first two dropzones, but Truman has had his own program for years. (no surprise there)

But not so at some smaller dz's that may not have the instructional staff to do a AFF program or you have rating holders who are still stuck in the 80's due to a lack of continuing education or not having access to the current curriculum and are doing things from back in the day and are not up to speed on todays industry standards, not that it makes it totally unsafe, just assbackawards is all IMHO.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[popsjumper 2]

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At your dz:

1.what is the seating config for LV 1 w/video in a 182?

Student sits behind pilot with back to pilot's seat.
Reserve side instructor sits in back facing the student.
Main side instructor sits by the door facing the rear.
If there's video, he will sit back-to-dash with Main Side between his legs.

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2.How do you teach COA's & short circles?

COA:
Start with good arm position.
Check Heading - pick out an object on the horizon.
Check Altitude - Turn head, turn wrist and read altimeter.
Check Left - Look below left elbow for JM and yell out the altitude. Respond to reminder signals from JM.
Check right - Look below right elbow for JM and yell out the altitude. Respond to reminder signals from JM.
Check heading

Short Circles:
Start with good arm position.
Check heading, check altimeter every 3 seconds.
Lock on or take deep breath at 6000 ft.

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3. what is the hard deck for Lv1? & Pull priorities?

We have them initiate the pull sequence with the wave-off at 5500 ft. with a hard deck of 4000 ft.

Pull Priorities:
1 Pull
2 Pull at assigned altitude.
3 Pull at assigned altitude in a stable body position.

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4. What is the decision altitude?

Decision Altitude is the altitude by which the
student should have made the decision to keep his main or cutaway and deploy his reserve. If his decsion is to cutaway, he should have it done by 2500 ft.

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5. Would ever have a LV 1, 2 or 3 student next to an open door with out a grip or restraint?

No. Emphatically NO.

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I know what the SIMS says and I know what the course I attended trained, so save me the read your SIMS BS, I want to hear from others in the "real world" as to what is the industry standard in 2009.

I hope something like that is what you are asking for...it's what we teach here.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[stratostar 5]

There you have it, the answer I was seeking spelled out and this is how I found your DZ as a walk on to do AFF, teaching the same standard as the other places I have done AFF instruction as a visiting rating holder. And one of the reasons Skydive The Farm was posted by name as being on the same page as the industry standards and happends to be one of my fav places to visit, work at & send students and lowtimers to learn, a class act all the way.

Thank you Andy.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[peek 20]

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.... or you have rating holders who are still stuck in the 80's due to a lack of continuing education or not having access to the current curriculum and are doing things from back in the day and are not up to speed on todays industry standards, not that it makes it totally unsafe, just assbackawards is all IMHO.

So what kind of stuff have you seen?

And importantly, has it hindered learning or caused a reduction in safety?

[stratostar 5]

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And importantly, has it hindered learning or caused a reduction in safety?

That would depend on who point of view you choose to take, you've said yourself you don't see a problem with a LV 1 student unrestrained by an open door. Is not teaching the current standards hindering learning? I would say it is, I would also say leaving a student by the open door in not a safe thing to do, in my course it earned you an automatic unsat in the course for that dive for failing to control your student, the same as keeping a grip on them as you walk to the AC. We do all this shit for a reason and failing to do so is not up holding your duty as an instructor, do the job right and 100% or don't do it at all!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[popsjumper 2]

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.... or you have rating holders who are still stuck in the 80's due to a lack of continuing education or not having access to the current curriculum and are doing things from back in the day and are not up to speed on todays industry standards, not that it makes it totally unsafe, just assbackawards is all IMHO.

......And importantly, has it hindered learning or caused a reduction in safety?

I like to think that the evolution of instruction has been a progressive one in that we are finding better and better ways of doing it. I like to think that the progression includes safety issues as well as teaching methods.

In that light, I would say yes, today's methods are safer that years past.

I would also like to think that we all continue to progress.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[riggerrob 558]

Professional instructors always do some refresher training every spring.

Since I believe in leading by example, I attended the PIA Symposium, applied for a Sigma Tandem Instructor rating and trained two new Strong Tandem Instructors.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner
CSPA Rigger Instructor

[Schoenauer 0]

1.what is the seating config for LV 1 w/video in a 182?
We don’t do videos for AFF students so main side sits with back against the instrument panel student in front reserve instructor sits behind pilot. When we did videos the video flyer sat back to instrument panel, main side sits in fort of them, student behind pilot, and reserve side sits in rear with as much weight forward as possible.

2.How do you teach COA's & short circles?
On exit they should perform a body scan, then COA; altitude, heading, instructors. Instructor signals to perform maneuvers /skill set as per dive flow. After maneuvers COA's until 6000' then short circles; altitude, heading, altitude, heading, ect. At 5000' Wave off and pull.

3. what is the hard deck for Lv1? & Pull priorities?
We look at #3 and #4 as being the same thing and that is the hard deck is the decision altitude the minimum altitude for the student to decide either to keep the main parachute or cutaway and pull reserve. The hard deck/decision alt. is 2500’ and the student should be performing the EP if that is their decision by 2000’. Of course if the decision is made at a higher altitude then they should take care of business at that time.

The priorities
Pull to save your life
Pull on time
Pull stable

4. What is the decision altitude?
See #3

5. Would ever have a LV 1, 2 or 3 student next to an open door with out a grip or restraint?
No. On a 182 or 206 the reserve side has a leg grip just before the door opens, the main side is blocking out the student when the door opens. The main side takes leg grip once they are on the step and then signals student to begin climb out.

Memento Mori

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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At your dz:

1.what is the seating config for LV 1 w/video in a 182?

Screw "outside" video when doing AFF out of a C 182. Every person with a brain that I know nowadays wears a side-mount video for debriefing purposes. It is particularly effective on the main-side.

2.How do you teach COA's & short circles?

On a Cat A? Exit, take a breath, heading, altimeter, reserve side, main side. Short circles after the second COA, until lock-on at 6000 feet.

3. what is the hard deck for Lv1? & Pull priorities?
My hard-deck for main-side is 4000 feet. Priorities taught? 1: Pull. 2: Pull at the correct altitude. 3: Pull at the correct altitude with stability.
4. What is the decision altitude?
For the student? After pull? 2500 feet.

5. Would ever have a LV 1, 2 or 3 student next to an open door with out a grip or restraint?
No. If it's a two JM dive, the outside (main) JM blocks the door with his left foot until the student starts to rotate outside. The inside JM always has a grip on the student prior to him/her rotating out the door.

I don't do a lot of 182 stuff anymore, but that doesn't mean that my techniques have changed since I moved to a full-time turbine DZ.

Chuck

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[stratostar 5]

Your on par with what I would expect you to say and the dz your jumping at to teach. (industry standard)

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

"2.How do you teach COA's & short circles?

On a Cat A? Exit, take a breath, heading, altimeter, reserve side, main side. "

.........................................................................

Interesting!
That is the reverse direction of old-school AFF/PFF.

What is the logic behind the change?

[mark 102]

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"2.How do you teach COA's & short circles?

On a Cat A? Exit, take a breath, heading, altimeter, reserve side, main side. "

.........................................................................

Interesting!
That is the reverse direction of old-school AFF/PFF.

What is the logic behind the change?

The acronym is HARM, and many thoughtless instructors teach it that way.

Mark

[peek 20]

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Interesting! That is the reverse direction of old-school AFF/PFF. What is the logic behind the change?

So, you approve? Disapprove? (Sorry, I can't answer your question.)