How much different type of instructors should earns?

[diablopilot 2]

Cool.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[camamel 0]

I have to admit that I agree with you on some points, but not on $50 for AFFI and $25 for TMI. That I totally disagree.
I agree with Toolbox for the risk involve for those two type of instructors.
Things to consider:
AFFI Eventually he will end up with a regular jump at the opening time, with his own rig and regular emergency procedure in case of a problem. Otherwise he will enjoy the ride under his main.
But he also have to jump and maintain his own equipement and he need very good flying skills.
TMI on the other hand need to be very methodic ( I am not sure about this word, anglish is not my language !) they have to do all the time the same thing the same way because the rig is different, with more handles and more complex emergency procedures. They also stay with the custommer thru all that on opening and until the ground. They also jumps the DZ's rigs and not there own.
I have around 2000 4W & 8W jumps not that much but enough to understand the game. Do you think it is possible with a 15 min brieefing to take a very experience 4 way jumper and have him do a AFF with you? Now do you think the same jumper with a 15 min brieefing can go with a tandem passenger?
At my place for next year I decide to pay both of them the same $35/jump.
But we also decide if those instructors do both during the summer they will receive and extra $5 for each and every jump of instruction they did.

What do you think about that.

Personnaly I think it is fair, but I will see what my instructor think about that soon.

Richard

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Skill level, danger, time, and personal cost are all important considerations, but supply and demand are still king. From what I have seen TMs are in higher demand than PFF (AFF) jms. Therefore they seem to be paid a bit higher on average. Here in Alberta two DZs have offered me $50.00 per tandem; no PFF is a bit closer to $30.00.

BTW methodical is the word you were looking for.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I second everything Derek V said. Also what Rob Warner said. AFF takes three times as long to prep/dive/debrief and is definitely much more mentally challenging. I do both and definitely concur that you ought to be paid more for AFF (main-side/primary briefer and single instructor jumps). Reserve side jumps where you are not required to brief/debrief ought to be paid the same as tandems.

As I now work solely for myself in the training arena, I charge (and pay myself) whatever I feel is appropriate. I use my own AFF rig and my own tandem rig.

Chuck

[steveorino 7]

I'm not an AFFI so take my input with a grain of salt. I am a IADI and TI.

I've videoed the worst AFF I ever saw a few years back. It went to hell in a hand basket quickly. One AFFI was slung off and the other hung on finally deploying him just above the hard deck. The AFFI was white as a ghost after that jump. That same AFFI is also a TI. I videoed a tandem of his where a strong 25 year old guy stopped the flair about shoulder high. Just before they both hit like a ton of bricks the TI's adrenalyne kicked in and was able to over power the young man and get "part" of a flair initiated before they hit ... hard. Maybe this particular AFFI/TI should tell us which should be paid more.

steveOrino

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

AFF requires more skill than tandems.

Not by current testing standards.

That's ridiculous. I know, every AFF-I that passed under the previous system and a bunch of non-AFF-I's think everyone is just handing out ratings these days. To be honest, it rings about as true as the average 20-miles-to-school-barefoot-in-the-snow-uphill-both-ways speech. The TI course is pretty easy to pass, the AFF is not so easy. If you'd like proof of this, compare the percentages of those who successfully complete a TCC versus an AFFCC. Still, passing courses is not what was said...the quote was "AFF requires more skill than tandems." I'd agree that doing AFF requires more skill than doing tandems. I'd also say that passing the AFF course requires more skill than passing a TI course, but I guess that's kinda beside the point.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[diablopilot 2]

One point.

A TI MUST have good canopy control.

I know AFFI's that can't stand up 8 out of ten landings much less guide their students through a landing pattern. Wonder why there are so many pattern incidents these days?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[livendive 8]

Quote

One point.

A TI MUST have good canopy control.

I know AFFI's that can't stand up 8 out of ten landings much less guide their students through a landing pattern. Wonder why there are so many pattern incidents these days?

Based on this and another post you put somewhere in this thread, it sounds like you've seen some really bad AFF-I's. In my experience, they're the exception, not the rule. In my limited roaming, I've encountered exactly one who I didn't think had the skills to be an AFF-I and one who possessed the skills but didn't always use them. Then again, with less than 2000 jumps, and less than 200 AFFs, I'm the newbie in our AFF crew, so that might have something to do with it. I've seen a lot more ugly tandem landings than ugly AFF-I landings...mostly because tandem landings are more complicated than solo landings, but canopy control has been a factor as well.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[diablopilot 2]

Sorry if my posts have come off sour. I have seen many more good and great AFF instructors around the country. Some are full time, some part, some long time in the sport and some relativly short. They all had one thing in common, they has a passion to teach, and learn, and that's why they got their ratings.

IMO the system is letting through too many of the type that get the AFFI rating for money, and ego reasons.

That might be ok for Tandem "Masters" or Meat Haulers provided they are safe, but the "Instructor" lable needs to be reserved for those who do just that.

I do have a problem with the current course in that it focuses on freefall abilities only. And adding yet another rating like "canopy coach" is going to be a joke. It will cost the students more, and add nothing that they shouldn't already be getting from their AFF instructor.

WHen S/L was the main form of training, students got lots of feedback on canopy control, gear checks, aircraft safely, etc. Now there is so much focus on freefall, that just landing safely is enough.

My instructors were S/L instructors for YEARS before becoming AFF instructors. So when I FUBARed my patteren, I heard about it and how to fix it.

To all the students, and instructors I'd like to point out, the freefall stuff is the easy part. It takes some time to get perfect, but we don't need "perfect" right away since freefall is rarely what kills jumpers. We need "good enough" there, and "perfect" in the important areas like A/C safety, emergency training, and canopy control.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SpecialKaye 0]

I'm sorry, but I disagree on the prices of pack jobs. When I started skydiving 11 years ago, the prices were what they are now. Let's remember, packing for others REQUIRES a rigging ticket, even though most don't bother. Let's also remember, the only people that the FAA goes after when something happens, are the riggers and the pilot, the licensed individuals.

Some of the more reputable DZs are recognizing how the people that keep the planes moving, the gear packed and the instructors safe, are the most underpaid and coming up on the pay. I have 3 tandem masters that I pack for that pay $15 + tip out (or buy dinner and beers) at the end of the day.

The price of gas has gone up, the price of jump tickets has gone up, the price of gear has gone up. If we looked at the average increase of the various prices, riggers should be getting $20 for tandems, $12 for student rigs and $10 for sport packs. Oh, and those unlicensed "packers" should be paying the riggers $2.00 per pack job for working under that riggers license.

Just my opinion, $.02 and outlook on the economy.

K

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

The price of gas has gone up, the price of jump tickets has gone up, the price of gear has gone up. If we looked at the average increase of the various prices, riggers should be getting $20 for tandems, $12 for student rigs and $10 for sport packs

Not that I wouldn't love to get paid more, but I disagree with your logic.

Whether gas is $50/gallon or free and whether I'm packing a $10000 rig or a $800 one, my overhead costs as a rigger/packer are no different, so why would the cost of a pack job increase exponentially with no increase in overhead costs?

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[diablopilot 2]

Packing for others does NOT require the packer to hold a riggers ticket.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

The price of gas has gone up, the price of jump tickets has gone up, the price of gear has gone up. If we looked at the average increase of the various prices, riggers should be getting $20 for tandems, $12 for student rigs and $10 for sport packs

Not that I wouldn't love to get paid more, but I disagree with your logic.

Whether gas is $50/gallon or free and whether I'm packing a $10000 rig or a $800 one, my overhead costs as a rigger/packer are no different, so why would the cost of a pack job increase exponentially with no increase in overhead costs?

Cost of living increase.

IN the 9 years I've been skydiving packers have only recently started making a bit more per pack job.

OTH jump ticket prices have gone up about 25%.

As for a $10000 rig, well you can't pack tandems as fast as you can pack small sport rigs so those should pay more.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

Cost of living increase.

IN the 9 years I've been skydiving packers have only recently started making a bit more per pack job.

OTH jump ticket prices have gone up about 25%.

As for a $10000 rig, well you can't pack tandems as fast as you can pack small sport rigs so those should pay more.

A cost of living increase is very different than a doubling of fees due to gas prices that have no effect on the packer at all.

I agree tandems should (and do) pay more. Any new ZP should pay more too since it takes longer. I'm so glad most new canopy owners appreciate what we do and tip very well.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[SpecialKaye 0]

You may want to check out the FAR's. If you are an instructor and making this statement, then you definitely need to review your materials.

[peregrinerose 0]

He is right though.... packers do not need to have a riggers' ticket. They just need to be working under direct supervision of a rigger if they don't hold a ticket.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

You may want to check out the FAR's. If you are an instructor and making this statement, then you definitely need to review your materials.

I have. I suggest you re-read the FAR's.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[NVizABull 0]

are you saying that you don't think that packing prices should come up as much as jump prices have over the years? personally, i wouldn't want someone packing for me if they didn't have a rigger's ticket. someone that's gotten their rigger's ticket shows that they have learned more than how to pack a main parachute, and will obviously look at the wear points to keep someone safe, whereas someone that is just a packer is just worried about that $5.00 or whatever. i pack for myself, therefore, i have no one to blame but myself if i have a malfunction.

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

are you saying that you don't think that packing prices should come up as much as jump prices have over the years? personally, i wouldn't want someone packing for me if they didn't have a rigger's ticket. someone that's gotten their rigger's ticket shows that they have learned more than how to pack a main parachute, and will obviously look at the wear points to keep someone safe, whereas someone that is just a packer is just worried about that $5.00 or whatever. i pack for myself, therefore, i have no one to blame but myself if i have a malfunction.

Nope, I don't think that there is a reason for a pack job price to have the same inflation rate as jump ticket costs. All the expenses with running a DZ have increased with time (legal fees, insurances, plane maintanance, gear expenses, fuel prices....). A DZO needs to raise their prices (jump tickets and other prices) to cover the cost of overhead increase, plus make a living. Packers have no real overhead, so only need to deal with increased cost of living.

Do you really think a packer, with a rigging ticket or not, has the time to 'inspect wear points' on the rig? Hell no! You are paying a packer to shove your main in a bag, not to inspect or maintain your gear. That's why it scares me that so few people make any effort to know their own gear, pack it themselves occasionally, and maintain their own gear.

That doesn't mean that we aren't looking at your gear when we pack it, we do. But it isn't any substitute for a full actual inspection and maintanance.

There are very good packers without riggers' tickets and very crappy packers with riggers' tickets. I don't think a riggers' ticket defines the quality of a packer. I didn't somehow miraculously turn into a better or more conscientous packer the day I passed the riggers' practical. The two other packers I work with don't have tickets and I'd trust either of them completely, both are extremely good, detail oriented, and care. That's why I quite happily sign off as supervising rigger for them.

Any packer that worries solely about the $5 isn't worth paying to pack.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[packerboy 3]

Not sure about packers who pack for a living, but I packed to pay for jumps. I would rather a DZO offer a jump for every 4 pack jobs (or 2 for 4 tandems) or something as such, and keep it consistent through the inflation of ticket prices. I think that would be fair for everyone. As fuel price increases through inflation so does the cost to own and maintain gear, and as such so should packjobs. I'm sure most would say they packed their own right from the start, but what did a DZO pay for packjobs on student gear in the 1970's? Would any packer accept that today?

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Schoenauer 0]

AFF instructor where I am are being paid $35 main size and $25 for the reserve. The first jump tandem instructors get $35... the same as AFF main side, but the Tandem instructor doing tandem progression is the highest paid at $45. Go figure?
The coach is the lowest at $15.

Packing for the school earns $10 / tandems and $6 / student rigs. All sport packing is still $5 regardless of size.

I agree with a lot with what is being said on this thread: Yes it seems that the USPA is handing out the AFF tickets like candy on Halloween, but the same could be said for the TI. Heck there are several TIs I know who got their Coach and TI rating with in a week and that is what bothers me... a little.

Why?

Here’s brand new TI who is one of those one week wonders that has no practical experience, teaching skydiving, other than the examiner’s lectured, and this new TI now has all the rights and privileges of an instructor. They can supervise coaches, perform A license check dives, and administer A,B,C license test and sign off the application form for A,B,C licenses. My fear is this privilege may be abused, say, letting students slide, when truth be told they shouldn’t.

Sorry, I don’t mean to only pick on TIs, I know the same can be said about the AFFI, I am just venting a little.

So what’s the fix, return the AFF/JM and TM rating and make the “I” rating tough but obtainable to achieve. It would seem to make pay easer to structure and it would be fair because JMs and TM could then be classified as apprentice instructor.

Hell there I go... deviating from the subject again.

AFF should get the same as the TI doing tandem progression.
AFF reserve side should be paid the same as a first jump TI.
As for the coaches pay, sorry guys, I am on the fence with that one.

Memento Mori

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

So what’s the fix, return the AFF/JM and TM rating and make the “I” rating tough but obtainable to achieve. It would seem to make pay easer to structure and fair because JMs and TM could then be classified as apprentice instructor.

I always thought the old system worked well.
Why, again, did they change it?

[Schoenauer 0]

I can only guess but I would assume it has to do with a shortage of instructors bacause the rating was not easy to get, or DZOs wanting more flexibility. For example AFFJM had to be supervised by an AFFI and could not give tests or sign off application cards.

The TM I am not sure about because when I got my tandem rating my membership card showed nothing about tandem but at the DZ I was regarded as a tandem master. 2001 is when I started seeing Tan-I on my membership card I figure I was grandfathered to TI.

Memento Mori

[riggerrob 558]

Pay for a TI should equal the cost of a fun jump from 12,500 feet.

[riggerrob 558]

Under the old system, the goal was have newly-certified coaches/jump-masters/instructors (or whatever you want to call them) teach/supervise/work - under the supervision of a grey-beard - for two or three years before they were allowed to teach the first jump course alone.

Then they had to attend a second course (on methods of instruction) before they were allowed to teach the first jump course alone.

The old system discouraged "one-week wonders" ... with the exception of the AFF Certification Course, which was another huge ball of wax ...