AFFIs: How fast does your canopy open?

[riddler 0]

AFF Instructors only, please. How many feet for your canopy to open?

I did a few practice jumps this weekend, and found myself deploying much lower than normal. I always assume my CYPRES will fire at 1,000 (even though it may be lower), and so I always want to be in the saddle by 1,500. One jump this weekend put me at 1,800, and it was an "easy" jump.

My canopy normally takes 1,000 feet to open, and I never pull below 3,000 for that reason. I want to change this to open faster, because I can easily envision a scenario where I have to go low to pull a student.

What's a good opening distance to have for an AFFI?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Kimblair13 0]

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I always want to be in the saddle by 1,500

Scary. You might want to re-think that. But maybe I'm just a freak.

[Samurai136 0]

Uh.... I see you're jumping a Lotus. There's not a lot you can do to make it open faster. Airlocks tend to take a little longer to completely inflate.

1. Don't chase students below the hard deck. They have an AAD. You are only putting yourself at risk by chasing them.

2. If you are 'low' go straight to your reserve.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[livendive 8]

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My canopy normally takes 1,000 feet to open, and I never pull below 3,000 for that reason.

I hear this claim of 1000-1500 ft openings all the time and have a hard time believing it. Do you realize how long that would be in seconds, assuming a snivel for most of it?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[riddler 0]

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Scary.Crazy You might want to re-think that. But maybe I'm just a freak.Unsure

I've never been as low as 1500 when fully deployed - that's just what I've decided should be my personal "floor". I'm typically fully open at 2500. 1800 is probably the lowest I've ever been fully open, and I pulled at about 2800 to get there. But it's why I started thinking about this. I don't think 1500 is too low to be fully deployed considering 2,000 is my minimum pull altitude.

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Airlocks tend to take a little longer to completely inflate.

I also have a 1" pocket on my slider, and I suspect that's the first thing that hooknswoop is going to take a hatchet to

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I hear this claim of 1000-1500 ft openings all the time and have a hard time believing it. Do you realize how long that would be in seconds, assuming a snivel for most of it?

I don't really count seconds - I look at my Neptune after I let go of the P/C, then right again after opening (and making sure no one is coming straight for me). It reads 900-1100 difference pretty consistently.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[jgarango 0]

If your only reason to change the the speed of your openings is because you may have to chase a student, you should reconsider your role as a coach.

As coaches we are not allowed to pulled for students, not even to chase them below their required pull altitude (3500). As an AFFI is your call if you are willing to go bellow your hard deck to try to pull for them.

Juan

[riddler 0]

I've been a coach for more than two years with this same canopy. I'm not considering changing it for coaching. I plan to change it for AFFI. Make sense?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[AndyMan 7]

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I'm not considering changing it for coaching. I plan to change it for AFFI. Make sense?

Nope. As an AFFI you are trained that you should not go below your hard deck.

I never go into a training program with the intention of explicitly going against that training. What makes you so much smarter than the person that's training you?

It'd be far wiser to plan on getting that wayward student under control above your hard deck, then to plan on chasing them below it.

If you think you won't be capable of getting that wayward student under control, should you still plan on being an AFFI?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[rustywardlow 0]

Sense you don't have your rating yet, here is something to consider. Before you start thinking about students, think about passing the course. Experience wave off is at 3,500 ft. When your on the reserve side. You have to ride through experience wave off or at 3,500 ft. you are clear to turn and burn. The evaluator does not have to give you the experience wave off. The evaluator is doing this to see how altitude aware you are. If your safe feeling pull altitude is 3,000 ft. that only gives you 2 and half seconds to turn, track and pull. Not nearly enough time to clear your air space from the evaluator. You can have the most perfect skydive and then get an automatic for horizontal separation.
So, yes it does make sense to change your canopy because, there is a lot to consider before doing AFF and canopy selection is one of them.




CAPTAIN THE MATTER IS MIXING WITH THE DOESN'T MATTER

[riddler 0]

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Nope. As an AFFI you are trained that you should not go below your hard deck.

Where did I ever say I was going below my hard deck? Let me summarize what I believe I said - maybe you can quote me for where I said something errant:

1. My canopy currently takes 1,000 feet to open.
2. I currently work as a coach, and 1,000 foot opening is acceptable to me as a coach, because I always pull at or above above 3K, putting me in the saddle at 2K.
3. I am considering AFFI training. I feel that 1,000 foot opening is too much for an AFFI, because I may have to chase a student lower than 3K.

Question: How many feet is an acceptable opening for an AFFI?

Edit - OK, I just realized what you mean, and I need to clarify something. My current hard deck as a coach is 3K. I believe that if I want to do AFFI, I need to lower my acceptable hard deck in order to have more of a chance to catch a student. Not right away, but over time. First thing I need to do is change the opening distance of my canopy. Then I need to lower my acceptable opening, over the course of many jumps, to something better for AFFI. Maybe to 2K.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[riddler 0]

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So, yes it does make sense to change your canopy because, there is a lot to consider before doing AFF and canopy selection is one of them.

Thanks for the good info Rusty - I'm sure you don't remember me, but you were on the plane on my very first skydive, so I remember you.

So far, I see AFFIs all over the board, but 5-800 feet seems to make up the bell part of the curve. If I personally say that I'm done with freefall at 2,000 feet (meaning I pull by minimum 2,000 feet in an emergency), and I also say that I am setting my minimum altitude for full deployment at 1,500 (to stay safe above CYPRES level), then I need to have a canopy that opens in 500 feet. That would create a few different scenarios:

1. Typical AFF jump:
A. Student pulls at 5K
B. I turn and burn for 1K, pulling at 4K.
C. Fully deployed 3,500 feet, with adequate separation. ACCEPTABLE.

2. Low pull:
A. I tap out or pull student at 4K
B. I turn and burn for 1K and pull at 3K.
C. Fully deployed at 2,500 feet, with adequate separation. ACCEPTABLE.

3. Emergency scenario:
A. I pull for student at 2K. <- maybe should make this 2,500?
B. I pull immediately, also at 2K.
C. Fully deployed at 1,500 feet. Risk of collision with student.
D. Student fully deployed at 1,000-1,500 feet. Risk of two-out. Risk of collision with me.

4. Emergency scenario:
A. I fail to pull for student.
B. I pull at 2K.
C. Fully deployed at 1,500.
D. Student CYPRES deployed at 750 - reserve open at 400. Risk of CYPRES failure. Everybody lives. I resign as AFF instructor.

Of these scenarios, I don't like the numbers on scenario 3. I've seen good instructors that say 2K is their bottom end. Maybe they have canopies that open in 200 feet?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Samurai136 0]

For any emergency scenario you know you are low:

Go straight to your reserve.

I think you are putting the horse way ahead of the cart. Get the pocket slider off your Lotus and start getting some experience pulling at 2K, terminal velocity. This may require a good spot right over the top to land on the DZ. You're a D-license holder.

I don't think the issue is 'finding' a different main that opens faster. You're over analysing the situation. If you do find a main that makes you feel comfortable "pulling at 2K chasing an AFF student" someday you will push the envelope further. You've already convinced yourself that you're "safe". When that happens you will have a two-out scenario very low which could be very very bad. You really should be visualizing "I am low. Go straight to my reserve."

Sorry if this sounds like tough love.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[riddler 0]

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Sorry if this sounds like tough love.

It's no problem - if I didn't want criticism, I wouldn't post to dz.com I don't have any intention of getting a different main - I just want to know what altitude is good for opening. I plan to see what I can do with the Lotus - it opens long now, but I know we can modify it to open shorter. I think it will help me understand rigging a little better, and I have a lot of confidence in my rigger Actually, I was thinking about getting a Sam 136, but for entirely different reasons, and I have a little more learning to do on the Lotus before I get there.

My plan to lower my opening altitude - after modifying some things - maybe canopy, maybe packing techniques, until I have the opening altitude I want. Then start working lower over the course of several jumps until I feel "ok" about pulling at 2. I don't plan to pull there all the time - just once in a while to remind myself that it's OK.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[livenletfly 0]

its not that hard to believe. my velo for instance, i reach back at 3500, toss the pc probably 100 feet lower. for a good 2 seconds im waiting to be sat up in the saddle, theres 250- 300 more feet right there, then the inflation procces takes the rest.
when i start the deployment process at 3500 im under a fully pressuized canopy by 2400-2200 feet. thats about 800- 1000 feet for the canopy to completly open.
i do agreee that it seems people exagerate when i hear about their 1500 ft openings. they probably dont look at their altimeter immediatly after opening.
i have watched my alti throughout the entire sequence, i assure you it is correct.

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[livenletfly 0]

ridller i wouldnt sweat it too much. i wouldnt change my canopy if i were you. i was pretty pegged out about how long my velocity takes to open (1000 ft), but to tell you the truth it hasnt been a problem.
going as low as 2000 ft is not common at all in aff. do your job well and be prepared to go right to silver. personaly if im not able to deploy till 2000 or a little lower i, jumping my velo would probably go for the sure thing, that being my reserve. throwing out at 2000 ft is not the time to have a longer than normal opening or a mal. ive trained myself to go for reserve at my last squeeling alarm on my audible set at 1800ft. i cant say adreniline wont overide my thinking but i have trained myself on the ground that that crazy tone means reserve now!!!

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[riddler 0]

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my velocity takes to open (1000 ft) ... ive trained myself to go for reserve at my last squeeling alarm on my audible set at 1800ft

So, theoretically, you could pull main as low as 1800 (or a few feet higher), with a 1000 foot opening, getting you in the saddle by 800. Your profile says you jump CYPRES. Are you worried that 800 feet is pretty close to activation altitude? That's my concern with pulling the main lower than 2000 on 1000 feet of snivel.

Well, that and hitting the ground

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[livenletfly 0]

hell yea im concerned, thats why i just said ive trained myself to not got to my main at 2000 or below. also beimg sat up in the saddle your aad will fire hire than 750. more like 850-950. check out the airtech website. the pressure is different not being belly to earth and confuses the aad.
look the days of jumping f-111 pd's and pitching out at 2000 ft are over with todays hp canopy's. 2000 ft is now what 1000 ft was back then.

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[riddler 0]

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also beimg sat up in the saddle your aad will fire hire than 750. more like 850-950. check out the airtech website. the pressure is different not being belly to earth and confuses the aad.

No joke. That's why I want to be in the saddle at no lower than 1500. I assume 1,000 feet will activate it.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Reginald 0]

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3. Emergency scenario:
A. I pull for student at 2K. <- maybe should make this 2,500?
B. I pull immediately, also at 2K.
C. Fully deployed at 1,500 feet. Risk of collision with student.
D. Student fully deployed at 1,000-1,500 feet. Risk of two-out. Risk of collision with me.

At 2,500 you pull the students silver, they have a canopy within 300 feet. You now have 2.5 seconds to pick one of your handles. Choose wisely.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[velocity-96 0]

correct no joke. know your gear my friend. it will save your life. also riddler, keep in mind you still have a couple hundred more jumps till you can do aff. you will be alot more comfortable with your canopy and going under 3000 by then. good luck. get your aff rating. its a ton of fun, and challenging as all hell. im was more proud of myself when i got mine than when i got through basic training in the marines. its awsome taking someone up on their first skydive. the emotions you will see are incredible.
blue skies
velo

[tr027 0]

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No joke. That's why I want to be in the saddle at no lower than 1500. I assume 1,000 feet will activate it.

If you're that worried about it then why not just get a bigger pilot chute and smaller slider??

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[velocity-96 0]

because that would slam the shit out of him!

[riddler 0]

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If you're that worried about it then why not just get a bigger pilot chute and smaller slider??

Well, I'm no "expert" skydiver, despite my D-license , but I have learned one thing about skydiving. It's better to do one small step at a time then a bunch at once. hooknswoop removed the 1" pocket from my slider, and I'm going to watch my alti carefully on the next few openings and see how much it shortens. If it goes down to 750, then I might do one more thing. If it goes down to 500, then I'm done

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[velocity-96 0]

the sider mod is the reason your having long openings. did you ever jump the canopy without it. modern canopys are designed to open pretty darn good. you probably didnt need a slider pocket on your canopy unless you were getting unusaly hard openings frequntly. be carefull changing your slider. the canopy was designed with its current slider in mind. so its not always as simple as just using a smaller slider. you can get slammed!! i would definatly contact the manufacture before you do so. 750 is not that long of an opeing. i would way rather be in the saddle 200 feet lower than risk hard openings and a neck injury. im speaking from experience on this one bro. i was knocked out cold froma hard opening under a saber 150! i was grounded from the neck injury for 3 months and its never been the same since. this was 3 years ago and i still have neck and back issues. think again about the rick vs. reward factor. you are risking a hard opeonig every single deployment vs. a bad aff jump that happens very infrequntly!!!!

[riddler 0]

In answer to your questions: this Lotus 150 was purchased used (right here on dz.com) at less than 2 years old. The original owner complained of hard openings, so a rigger sewed the pocket on the slider, in addition to some other canopy modifications (risers, lines). I've always jumped it that way, since that was the way it came, and until now I was fine with that.

BTW - the rigger that did the mods, according to the previous owner, was named Brian Germain. I figured he knew what he was doing.

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you are risking a hard opeonig every single deployment vs. a bad aff jump that happens very infrequntly!!!!

A very good point that I'll take some time to consider. Thanks

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD