Coach Rating Experiance Requirements too Low?

[jsaxton 0]

From a conversation that we had at the DZ this weekend.
Do you think that the experiance requirements for the Coach Rating are too low, and if so Why?

Thanks for your opinions.

[tombuch 0]

No, I don't think they are too low. The coach rating is designed as an entry level rating to get folks involved in student training early in their jump careers. In that regard it is similar to the old Jumpmaster rating. When working with actual students a coach must be under the direction of an instructor, and that instructor should monitor what the coach is doing. Ideally, an instructor will restrict the activities of a coach under his/her supervision until the coach has demonstrated ability. Then, the instructor will allow the coach to push further. The supervising instructor is really a mentor to the coach. When managed this way, the rating is a chance to grow into instructing.

With all that said, coaches in the field are often pushed beyond their abilities and often lack supervision and mentoring. That's not a fault of the rating, but of the way it is handled in the field.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[jsaxton 0]

I agree that if things were handled correctly in the field there would not be a problem.

From the conversation this weekend (paraphrased)

It's an introductory rating, they're not there to pull for the student or
assist with stability.....

Me: 'Well let's hope that they are at least "there".'

To be supervised correctly the supervising instructor would have to ocassionally "audit" a coach jump, and I just don't see that happening in the field.

[tdog 0]

You know, one of my best coaches post AFF pre A had only 200 jumps or so, and a bunch of tunnel... Very helpful guy, lots of energy, lots of info... I am glad he was able to coach me. Some of the much higher jump number folk have the attitude, "I will fit it in between these three AFF jumps and that one video jump, and only if you pay X dollars." Even the ones that are not in it for the money are still pulled in 5 directions once they have the higher skills....

And... By the time I was looking for the skills of a great RW coach, it did not matter if he had the ratings because I already had a B...

[diablopilot 2]

I think it's nice that it attracts younger jumpers to get interested but at 100 jumps most jumpers are not even aware of their own body to be offering coaching for pay.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[LawnDart21 0]

Take 2 coaches, one has 100 jumps, another has 1000 jumps.

Both are capable of flying nose to nose with thier students. The difference is that the 100 jump coach typically expends 99% of thier mental energy on flying thier own body to stay with the student, leaving only 1% left for evaluating the student in the air. The 1000 jump coach typically expends like 1% of thier mental energy on flying thier own body, leaving 99% left for evaluating the students, hence your apt to get a more thorough air eval and debrief, from a more seasoned jumper.

But.......that doesnt mean I think a 100 jumper should not be coaching. On the contrary, I think if they pass the course, USPA or Skydive U, then they possess the appropriate skills to safely coach a student.

And ultimately, the 100 jump coach will become a 1000 jump coach, its a learning process, and part of that process is just going up and doing the jumps.

I think as long as any coach, 100 jumps or 1000 jumps, acknowledges thier own limitations, and fly within thier ability, they deserve to be coaching.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Remster 24]

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to be offering coaching for pay.

I cant comment on the US ratings, but I would assume its similar to the a mix of Coach 1 / Instructor A rating the CSPA uses.

You wont see many C1 or IA do any kind of for pay work, excpet for IAD dispatch (IA rating). When it comes to what they do, it more general conseling of junior jumpers, showing how to pack, doing visual observation in the air, organising 2/3 ways between compatible jumpers.

Its a great start on thecontinuum of coaching. Again, I cant comment on the USPA ratings, but at the CSPA level, you are taught how to coach, how to observe, how to demonstrate techinques, etc...

Remster

[livenletfly 0]

i just got my coach rating this spring with over 1000 jumps. i also got my aff rating this month. in my little experience instructing (less than 100 coach/aff jumps) ive been suprised how aggressive you sometimes must fly during coaching jumps, in order to be there to aid the student with handsignals and watching what their body is doing and when to give corrections during the debrief. there is no way in hell i would have been a useful coach at 100 jumps! nor do i feel most 100 jump newbies can do the job to an above average standard, which the student deserves at least that. thjese jumps cost 85 dollars a piece, they deserve alot more than someone with 100 jumps. to me its a loose loose situation. if the 100 jump new coach is like 90% of newbies they're still pegged out with very little awarness or real world knowledge. the other side of the coin is they're 100 jump wonder with not enough apprehension and understanding of how dangerous things can get. thats the 2 catagory's id place 80-90% of coaches with less than 200 jumps.
thats my shpeel
o.k let me have it.

>

[Reginald 0]

Just because a person gets the rating doesn’t mean they get a job doing coaching. At my DZ, plenty of people have both USPA and SDU coaches ratings. Only a few are allowed to work with students, the ones that have proved themselves capable.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[JumpRu 14]

Agree. I would like to see a little more requirements: not jump numbers but freefall and canopy skills demonstrated.

[sunshine 2]

Yes, it's a joke. I've seen people with the bare minimum of 100 jumps becoming coaches and don't deserve the rating. I really think 100 jumps is not enough jumps to be coaching.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[lug 4]

It doesn’t matter if they have 100 or 1000 jumps, get off the idea that number of jumps means something. I have jumped with people who have less than 100 jumps and fly vary will with a high level of awareness, yes, even greater then some with 1000s of jumps. I call those young jumpers’ naturals, and if they are horny to teach, all the power to them, all they need to do is pass a LEGITIMATE coach’s course.

The coaches course is my beef, I have noticed some new coaches get their rating who can not regularly stand up their landings, they can barely fly in their own column of air or stay relative with someone else who can. They are sloppy with their ground preps; they see a low percentage of what a coach should see in the air, and they are ineffective in post jump review and in corrective training. They are an embarrassment.

Its the evaluators, just a few bad apples, who pass out the coaches rating like free condoms at planned parenthood, that ticks my off.

The preceded message is not intended as an attack on any one person it’s just a complaint I had to let out.

Memento Mori

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Hi Sketchy

In my humble opinion, it depends on the individual Coach. I can tell you that I am much more comfortable with a minimum of 200 jumps for the C license to Coach as opposed to the old 100 jumps.

I can still remember back when I had 100 jumps (and I was pretty good for 100 jumps anyway... ). Compared to now though, I was scary. I totally agree with the person who said the difference between the Coach with 100 and the Coach with 1000 jumps is the one with 100 is expending 99% of his energy trying to stay with the student whereas the one with 1000 jumps expends 99% of his energy focusing on the student.

Anyway Sketchy, it is nice to see you on the Internet again. Blue skies

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[LawnDart21 0]

As I mentioned earlier, I feel that if someone possess the skills at 100 or 1000 jumps, and they pass the course, they can coach.

That said.......

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It doesn’t matter if they have 100 or 1000 jumps, get off the idea that number of jumps means something.

Jump numbers absolutely mean something. "Been there, done that" so to speak, really does matter. There is so much more to being a good coach/skydiver than just getting the rating. Being on a plane that has an emergency exit, spotting and seeing another aircraft that everyone else missed at the door and asking for a go around, etc, these experiences are all things that make you a better coach/jumper and can only be attained by jumping, and it takes more than 100 jumps to acquire that type of experience. The 1000 jump coach, better flier or not than the 100 jump coach, will have seen more and experienced more in thier time in the sport, which means in theory they have more to teach beyond the basic dive and they will be cooler under pressure.

Your quote kind of hits home with me, as a few years ago a very close friend who had just got his coach rating at a couple of hundred jumps, said the same thing you did, that skill mattered, not jump numbers. I told him that while that may be true to a certain extent, certain necessary skills can only be acquired through jump numbers, and not to underestimate the value of gained experience that simply surviving 1000 skydives offers. He said I undertsand what you are saying, but I 100% disagree with you.

He died a week after our conversation under a perfectly good canopy due to a panic turn landing off the DZ.

If anyone tries to rationalize that jump numbers dont matter, they are kidding themselves.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[tdog 0]

Worth repeating, I think:

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And ultimately, the 100 jump coach will become a 1000 jump coach, its a learning process, and part of that process is just going up and doing the jumps.

I think as long as any coach, 100 jumps or 1000 jumps, acknowledges thier own limitations, and fly within thier ability, they deserve to be coaching.

[lug 4]

I stand by what I have said.

Memento Mori

[LawnDart21 0]

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I stand by what I have said.

Of course you do. It wouldnt be an internet forum if you didnt.

I'm gonna quote myself, as I feel it bears repeating:

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certain necessary skills can only be acquired through jump numbers, and not to underestimate the value of the gained experience that simply surviving 1000 skydives offers.

Can you honestly say you were the same "seasoned" skydiver at 100 jumps as you are at 3000 jumps? I would think probably not. Im sure over those 3000 jumps you have learned alot since jump #100, like what teaching techniques work better than others, what types of bad things students will do in the air that you need to be prepared for, etc, etc.

You stand by what you said......

So you must think you bring to the table the same level of skill at 100 jumps as you do now at 3000 jumps.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[peregrinerose 0]

I just passed 100 jumps and eventually would love to be a coach/AFF instructor. However, I think that to coach at 100 jumps is plain nuts. I don't feel that someone who has just learned a skill should be teaching it right away. With every jump, I realize just how much more I need to learn. Even if I was God's gift to flying at 100 jumps (which I am not!), the lack of general jumping experience would be limiting. You can only experience so many things in 100 jumps.

If there are 100 jump number coaches, great for them. I personally don't feel my experience is sufficent to pursue this route. Yet. But there's no hurry either, the sky will be there another year, when I can give the student the expertise they deserve.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[LawnDart21 0]

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I think that to coach at 100 jumps is plain nuts.

Try to put into perspective. USPA (and Skydive U) have developed a list or requirements (both airskill and ground skills) that must be met to achieve a coach rating.

I doubt anyone would disagree (even on here) that a jumper with a 1000 jumps of which 100 are coach jumps would make a more well rounded coach than a jumper with 200 jumps and 20 coach jumps.

Higher jump numbers will perhaps make a coach more efficent, perhaps a better teacher through trial and error, and perhaps a better flier, through repetition of coach jumps.

That doesnt mean that at their starting point, when they got thier rating that they were not qualified to do the jumps. If someone has earned a coaches rating, they have proven that they possess the neccessary skills to be a coach. And as a coach that is ultimately where the learning truly begins as they move towards other ratings.

During my riggers course with Dave DeWolfe, it was emphasized again and again, that a rigger ticket is a license. A license to learn. Same hold true for coaches. A coach rating is a license to learn to be best coach you can be, whether at 100 jumps or 1000 jumps.

And who knows Jen, you may very well have the airskills to meet the requirements, if its something that interests you, go take a coach course, you may surprise yourseld, plus you've got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[peregrinerose 0]

Actually, I'll be in Dave's course in January for the rigger's ticket

The problem that I see here, is that a coach does not have a license to learn alone, they have a license to teach. Just because someone can perform various tasks reasonably well does not mean that they have enough experience to teach those tasks to someone else.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[LawnDart21 0]

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Actually, I'll be in Dave's course in January for the rigger's ticket

Excellente! You will not be disappointed. Dave's and his group of instructors are one of the best things going in this sport. Best of luck, and get plenty of sleep before the course, your gonna need it!

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Just because someone can perform various tasks reasonably well does not mean that they have enough experience to teach those tasks to someone else.

While "reasonably well" can be left open to personal interpretation, keep in mind that the basis for determining what reasonably well means to be able to earn a coaches rating (USPA & Skydive U) came from some of the best minds in our sport. I see that criteria as a foundation. If a skydiver possess the necessary foundation, then it can be built on over time. None the less, the foudation, according to USPA and Skydive U, is sufficient to safely teach other skydivers. The "powers that be" that determine those necessary skills have my confidence in thier ability to do so.

The other thing to consider as well is that there exists alot of "Mom & Pop" Cessna DZs that simply do not have the volume to be able to attract the "Eloy caliber" instructors, and as such, there is often a shortage of qualified instructors on some of these smaller DZs. If you were to raise the bar on coach requirements, it would mean less coaches, and less coaches means, slower student graduations, which means less A-License grads at smaller DZs, as the long it takes someone to graduate, the more likely they are to drop out, which hurts the sport overall.

So I would say that you certainly have a valid point Jen, just try to keep in mind that these courses focus not just on airskills (which they have a minimum criteria for), but they also teach the coach candidates "how to teach", which is also a vital aspect of the rating.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[velvetjo 0]

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The problem that I see here, is that a coach does not have a license to learn alone, they have a license to teach.

There's an old saying: "To teach is to learn twice." I've learned a hell of a lot both before & since I got my coach rating. Much from people helping me toward the rating, but also from other instructors and the students I've taught too.

I agree with everyone who's posted that it's a great rating for growing instructors. Ever heard of student teachers?

Lance

[peregrinerose 0]

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I agree with everyone who's posted that it's a great rating for growing instructors. Ever heard of student teachers?

Student teachers are under direct supervision of experienced teachers. Same with new grads from medical schools, they have the knowledge base of docs, but are still under the supervision of experienced docs prior to going out on their own.

I agree that teaching provides just as much learning experience as learning. I have taught clarinet/sax for many years, taught bio and chem labs for 4 years, and have been a tutor all through high school and college. As a doc, the most important part of my job is to teach.

I also know that as a teacher, it isn't fair to the student to not have a broad range of experience to draw from.

My gut instinct is that to become a coach, a fairly high number of jumps with less experienced jumpers should be required prior to licensing (with experienced coach supervision). So that the coach-to-be can be adept at chasing students all over the sky with their attention on the student's body position rather than their own so that feedback is given. So that the coach in training can learn a wide variety of potential problems, concerns, etc. And be able to respond to questions well in the presence of an experienced coach to ensure no screw ups.

How many 100 jump wonders spew BS on this forum thinking that they know what they are talking about? Hell, I'm one of them right now in this post

I have no doubt that I could get a coaching certification. But it is unfair to the students I would work with to bring fairly limited experience to the table. Maybe other 100 jumpers are better, more experienced, more confident, in general superior to me? Definitely possible.

I can understand the concern about smaller dropzones, but how would an extra 100 jumps of experience truly inhibit their ability to gain coaches? I don't think 8000 jumps are necessary to be a good coach, but 75 jumps or less after getting an A license doesn't seem like enough either.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[bmcd308 0]

What a coach is authorized to do and what a specific coach actually does are two different things. I got my coach rating so I could take AFF grads on skydives. I had to demonstrate that I could teach a FJC, but I do not do that. More experienced people do. There are certain aspects of skydiving that I am able to teach with competence. There are others I am not. I know the difference.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[riddler 0]

There are people with 1000 jumps that think 100 jumps is not enough. Then there are people with 5000 jumps that think the AFF requirements are too low.

I find myself falling into this trap. This weekend, I watched a friend of mine that started jumping two years ago teach a tracking camp, and lead several dozen-way tracking dives. I thought - wow! Why is this guy leading tracking dives? He's not very experienced and I remember when he was a sky-baby. But then I realized what the hell do I know anyway? Maybe 100 or more of his 300+ jumps are tracking jumps? I've done tracking jumps with him before, so I know he can do them. Does it matter if he's not as good as a someone with 5000 jumps? Maybe he's a better back-tracker than that 5000-jump wonder? Maybe he's the only one at this DZ with the motivation and enthusiasm to put together a camp and actually do the jumps.

Back to coaching. Fact is, there are requirements to coach. 100 jumps, demonstrate in-air skills, demonstrate ground-teaching skills. To me, if you can do those things, you can coach. Coaches don't pull for students, they don't demonstrate method-specific sections. Usually, they fall straight down and watch people. Does that take 100 jumps? They have to prove they can do that to get the rating, so I guess that proves it. If the 100 jump rule doesn't work, then USPA will up the jump number requirement.

Second thing. Skydiving is an individual sport, and individuals show competence in some areas, and weaknesses in some areas. The coach course will prove that they have minimum requirements in all areas. Coaching will allow them to improve those areas they are weak in. There are some jumpers out there that are good enough to be coaches at 50 jumps - not many, but some. Who is to say that they aren't good enough without evaluating them individually? Would you judge someone that has less jumps than you based solely on that number?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD