ladyskydiver 0 #1 November 1, 2004 Question for tandem masters: If someone wanted to lurk a tandem, what are your "requirements" before you'd ok them to do so? Reason I'm asking...my mom has informed me that come spring she'd like to do a tandem. And, I'd like to lurk it and watch her experience her first jump. I know that I'll need to ask her specific tandem master if they'd ok it, but if there's any advice or things I can do to "help" me out in this situation, I'd like to hear it. Thanks! Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tink1717 2 #2 November 1, 2004 Check with the TI's at the DZ where you are going to do the jump. Get them to be as specific as possible. You should be OK.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #3 November 1, 2004 Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 November 1, 2004 There are guidelines, from what I've seen, not all TI's follow them exactly. Overall it comes down to the TI, is he/she comfortable with your flying ability and ability to not put the tandem pair at risk. There is a LOT that someone lurking the tandem pair could do that could potentially hurt or kill all involved. Talk to the TI's at your DZ and they'll let you know whats up.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #5 November 1, 2004 Trust me...I don't want anyone to get hurt, killed or anything other than have a blast hence the questions. And, honestly, even if the TI said it was ok and I end up not feeling comfortable about it, I won't lurk the tandem. Just checking to see if there's anything I can do besides continue being a safe skydiver, tunnel time, etc.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 November 1, 2004 Something that will help you is an ability to really control your levels, your ability to fly in proximity without taking grips and your ability to track like a banshee.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #7 November 1, 2004 Cool. Thanks for the info, Dave! Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #8 November 2, 2004 Another suggestion is to buy the TM your trusting to keep your mother safe, a jump. Do a 2 way with him showing him you are in full control, and have the ability to lurk on the tandem. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #9 November 2, 2004 Great suggestion. Thanks! Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #10 November 2, 2004 Cora, you are a good skydiver. I've jumped with you and I know that. Tandems are about belly skills. You showed those to me last year, and made me proud that you had horrid freefly skills. (remember? ) Hopefully, the tandem masters where you jump also fun RW jump with you when they don't have meat to haul. They are your best judges. I think I would jump with your mom on my front and you holding her hand, but I'd want to do another belly jump with you just to make me feel good. Plus, you're cute. Can't do too many skydives with the cute chicks... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #11 November 2, 2004 Thanks, Deuce! I'd jump with you again anytime. And, my freefly skills are still horrid (need to work on those again been doing all belly). I'd let you jump with my mom so if you happen to be around WI when she's ready to jump.... Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #12 November 2, 2004 I must remind you of an incident about 10 years back. A young jumper decided to "lurk" his mother on her first tandem jump. The tandem master allowed it, but told him to keep his distance. To make a long story tragically short, he collided with, and killed his mother at opening. Enough said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #13 November 2, 2004 Thanks for the story, Bill. I appreciate your input. Trust me...getting my mom killed - *shiver* - not something I want to do. And, like I've stated earlier, even if the TI says it's ok and I'm not comfortable with it - I won't do it. I'm very aware of what my skillset is and what my comfort level is. I'm in no hurry to rush anything but am willing to learn as much as possible. So...even if it ends up with me being out a few seconds after mom and her TI and me just hanging out a few thousand feet up to watch - that'd be cool by me as well. Or if it ends up with me giving mom a hug and out the door before her and then just watching from way below - again...that'd be ok with me. No guarantees that even with me asking that I'd do it. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John4455 0 #14 November 2, 2004 Lurking tandems is not allowed at my home dz. Regardless of skill level. How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
174fps 1 #15 November 2, 2004 here is the link to the incident in skydivingfatalities.info http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F1998&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F1998&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D incident 47 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #16 November 2, 2004 Quoteeven if it ends up with me being out a few seconds after mom and her TI and me just hanging out a few thousand feet up to watch - Not a good idea. When lurking a tandem always leave with them, and stay clear of the drouge throw should the TM let you join them. And if you are not with them, exit the plane BEFORE the them and let the TM give the exit separation needed for safety. If your not exiting with them and you can see the tandem pair clearly, you have probably NOT given enough exit separation. Maybe if you'd like to make her skydive as safe as possible, just be in the plane and jump before her, so she can see you leave the plane with a big smile, and then join her in her excitement as she watches her video safely on the ground? Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #17 November 2, 2004 QuoteLurking tandems is not allowed at my home dz. Regardless of skill level. Thats probably the safest. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #18 November 2, 2004 Thanks for the info. That's why I asked the question to see what TI's allowed/required/good/bad/etc. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #19 November 2, 2004 If your mom is getting video, check with the camera guy as well. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #20 November 2, 2004 I will. Mom will be getting video - I'm buying it. Hell, I'll pay for her entire experience just for her to do it. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #21 November 2, 2004 QuoteIf your mom is getting video, check with the camera guy as well. Good point I didn't like people swooping tandems when I did video. If I let them, I always made sure they stayed in my site. And even if the TM was good with it, I made sure I was ok with it too, or I'd tell them to get some other camera flyer that was..... Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #22 November 2, 2004 I've done it a couple times now. First one was with video. The instructor left the decision completely up to the video guy, who had no problem with it. The instructor just told me to stay off to the side and he'd signal me if it was ok to dock. I never got a signal, so I just hung out next to em. Second one was with a friend of mine on his first jump and no video, so I got to dock head-on with him. I can definitely see how tandem video could be fun to do for a while... Fall rate starts off REAL fast, but slows down once the drogue is out. Fell a bit faster than a normal RW jump for me, but not too bad. Here's the video of the first one: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1670. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #23 November 3, 2004 The danger zones are above and below the tandem. Don't ever fly in either zone, especially above. Make a slow approach, on level, approaching from the front. Most TI's want you to stay low and dock on the passenger. Ask ahead of time. If you're having trouble matching fall rate and can't hold still, let go, back off, and let the tandem master see you out in front and well clear. We need to keep track of where people are. Know what breakoff altitude is, and anticipate the waveoff. Backslide away maybe 20+ feet, watching the tandem pair, then turn and track. The video man owns the middle, so get the heck out of his way. He'll open not too far below the tandem. My sweet wife has swooped probably 60+ tandems of mine over the years, including our daughter's tandem this summer. It can be hugely rewarding, but always remember that the passenger's safety is job #1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ladyskydiver 0 #24 November 3, 2004 Thank you!!!! This is the stuff that I'm looking for - the explanations and "visual pictures". QuoteKnow what breakoff altitude is, and anticipate the waveoff. Backslide away maybe 20+ feet, watching the tandem pair, then turn and track. Clarification - reading the above, which is the correct way to read it? a) watch the wave off, start of deployment and then track or b) watch the wave off and then track? QuoteMy sweet wife ... That's an awesome description of your wife. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lewmonst 0 #25 November 3, 2004 Keep in mind that the gear manufacturers have specific requirements for rw with tandems (lurking is considered rw). Relative Workshop (Vector and Sigma tandem systems) requires 500 jumps with 100 rw jumps within the last year. It's in the maual here on page 97 of 121. I was allowed to lurk a tandem when I had very very very few jumps (<30) and didn't know any better. I stayed on level and about 50 feet away without incident, but knowing what I know now, that was a very stupid thing to do. As others have said, often TM's will allow someone without the minimum requirements to lurk a tandem if they are confident with their ability. Sometimes even with the requirements, a TM can say "No." It is up to the TM's discretion, but as Bill Booth said, the requirements are there for a reason. I want to echo what John said... especially fall rate and tracking. If a lurker is not able to match the fall rate it can be very dangerous. And if a lurker does not track effectively it can also be very dangerous, especially if there is video. Let me describe a recent jump to explain why. A lurker, qualified with 800+ jumps, wanted to come with his friend on a tandem. I was on video. The TM allowed it, and I assumed that because the TM was ok with it, he must have been confident in the lurker's skills. (This is a very experienced TM whom I respect) The lurker dives a second or two after the tandem and I exit. I see him in my peripheral vision as he's coming down on level and I try to wave him in closer. He dissapeared out of my peripheral vision as I am focused on the tandem. I see the TM also try to wave him in, but not for very long. I have no idea where the lurker is. Around 7000 feet, the TM motions to me, pointing to the right, then pointing down. I knew the spot was good and that I had the sun lined up correctly so I wasn't sure why he was pointing that way. I couldn't see the lurker in my peripheral vision that way either... I slided in that direction in response to his pointing. As usual, when he opened I flipped on my back and watched their opening as I back track. As soon as I flip back over, I got a nice scare as I passed by an open canopy about 50-60 feet away, yes, the lurker. The lurker couldn't match the fall rate and sunk out. He continued to try to stay relative to us hoping he could get back up, and didn't think tracking would be important. The TM saw him below us and was trying by pointing to let me know. Because I'd orbited away from the sun, I was fortunate that I backtracked away from him. At 5000 feet, the lurker should track, and track as far as possible. It is important if the tandem has to cut away, they will accelerate much more quickly. And it is important to the video as well. Lurkers usually are not familiar with the video in that the video does not take their eyes off the tandem (usually, for a good video anyway), so the video cannot be expected to keep track of a lurker. And especially at break off, as the videographer goes on their back to watch the tandem, they are blind to any dangers below them. That is why it is very important for a lurker to track effectively away from a tandem. John said about the video,QuoteHe'll open not too far below the tandem. Depending on what you consider "not too far", I disagree with that statement. I allow at least 1000 feet of vertical seperation, for which I am usually on my back for most of that. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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ladyskydiver 0 #24 November 3, 2004 Thank you!!!! This is the stuff that I'm looking for - the explanations and "visual pictures". QuoteKnow what breakoff altitude is, and anticipate the waveoff. Backslide away maybe 20+ feet, watching the tandem pair, then turn and track. Clarification - reading the above, which is the correct way to read it? a) watch the wave off, start of deployment and then track or b) watch the wave off and then track? QuoteMy sweet wife ... That's an awesome description of your wife. Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #25 November 3, 2004 Keep in mind that the gear manufacturers have specific requirements for rw with tandems (lurking is considered rw). Relative Workshop (Vector and Sigma tandem systems) requires 500 jumps with 100 rw jumps within the last year. It's in the maual here on page 97 of 121. I was allowed to lurk a tandem when I had very very very few jumps (<30) and didn't know any better. I stayed on level and about 50 feet away without incident, but knowing what I know now, that was a very stupid thing to do. As others have said, often TM's will allow someone without the minimum requirements to lurk a tandem if they are confident with their ability. Sometimes even with the requirements, a TM can say "No." It is up to the TM's discretion, but as Bill Booth said, the requirements are there for a reason. I want to echo what John said... especially fall rate and tracking. If a lurker is not able to match the fall rate it can be very dangerous. And if a lurker does not track effectively it can also be very dangerous, especially if there is video. Let me describe a recent jump to explain why. A lurker, qualified with 800+ jumps, wanted to come with his friend on a tandem. I was on video. The TM allowed it, and I assumed that because the TM was ok with it, he must have been confident in the lurker's skills. (This is a very experienced TM whom I respect) The lurker dives a second or two after the tandem and I exit. I see him in my peripheral vision as he's coming down on level and I try to wave him in closer. He dissapeared out of my peripheral vision as I am focused on the tandem. I see the TM also try to wave him in, but not for very long. I have no idea where the lurker is. Around 7000 feet, the TM motions to me, pointing to the right, then pointing down. I knew the spot was good and that I had the sun lined up correctly so I wasn't sure why he was pointing that way. I couldn't see the lurker in my peripheral vision that way either... I slided in that direction in response to his pointing. As usual, when he opened I flipped on my back and watched their opening as I back track. As soon as I flip back over, I got a nice scare as I passed by an open canopy about 50-60 feet away, yes, the lurker. The lurker couldn't match the fall rate and sunk out. He continued to try to stay relative to us hoping he could get back up, and didn't think tracking would be important. The TM saw him below us and was trying by pointing to let me know. Because I'd orbited away from the sun, I was fortunate that I backtracked away from him. At 5000 feet, the lurker should track, and track as far as possible. It is important if the tandem has to cut away, they will accelerate much more quickly. And it is important to the video as well. Lurkers usually are not familiar with the video in that the video does not take their eyes off the tandem (usually, for a good video anyway), so the video cannot be expected to keep track of a lurker. And especially at break off, as the videographer goes on their back to watch the tandem, they are blind to any dangers below them. That is why it is very important for a lurker to track effectively away from a tandem. John said about the video,QuoteHe'll open not too far below the tandem. Depending on what you consider "not too far", I disagree with that statement. I allow at least 1000 feet of vertical seperation, for which I am usually on my back for most of that. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
