Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit

[tspillers 0]

I will do front flips out of side exits (182, otter, etc) if the student wants to. I do a 270 backloop out of tailgates as recommended by the manufacturer.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[skydiverinpa 0]

i like to do a barrel roll on exit so we can wave at the pilot.i also will do front flips .

[tandemphil 0]

I do either front or backflips on exit. as far as flips are concerned, I find that the easiest to do is a gainer. All you need to do is a left turn out the door (Otter) and your back is presented to the relative wind. Then, all you have to do is arch with your legs extended. The flip pretty much takes care of itself. Once your head has come around past vertical you can throw the drogue head low but with your belly in the relative wind. This exit also works great for the vidiots. they get a clear view of your exit count as well as great shots of the students face during the exit. This exit also lets you get the drogue out fast, usually within the first 1 to 3 seconds. I've got a bit over 700 tandems and didn't start doing this exit untill I had about 100 under my belt, but now I would have to say that it is probably my favorite exit.
P.S. this exit also lets you geek the door on your way around and flip off the TM behind you!

to do is to be
to be is to do
do be do be do

[justaman 0]

I do flips becaues of the aircraft mostly but if the cleint wants I will be happy to grant their wishes. They are paying for it

Do or do not

[LukeOliver 0]

Spend my time setting up the customer's body position before I go.

No video? Turn and present on exit. Drogue before they have any opportunity to influence a good exit.

Video? Dive at cameraperson, delta or arch, drogue when good and ready. You've got time before you go terminal and rushing can be counterproductive, and I'm surrounded by excellent camerapeople.

All my exits from 14 thou these days.

L.

[riggerrob 613]

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I do flips because of the aircraft mostly

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What type of aircraft are you jumping?

Stable exits are possible out of most of the airplanes I have worked from.

Please complete your profile.

[justaman 0]

If i made a statement that sounds like it can't be done please forgive me. Small Cessnas and tailgate aircraft . It is true that you can exit without the filps.

As far as my profile Sorry I choose to have it that way. There are many things that I would like to put in but, there was no place for them. If you realy want to know I can send it to you.

Do or do not

[sdctlc 0]

I prefer to minimize variables in a tandem. Flips do/can serve a purpose, if the exit is poor sometimes instead of fighting the student, I will induce/allow a flip to solve an issue and allow you to get the student back in control, i.e. get the arms and legs if out of control back into control. I know a number of instructors that firmly belive that the filps are fine and do them on about every jump mostly out of a cessna. Again that is their opinion, but my opinion is "Why introduce an extra variable into the equation" My job is to first of all land safely with a passenger, realistically for not that great an amount of money so again I say why introduce variables... Second is to add enjoyment to the jump for the passenger and that is something that comes from all aspects of the jump, starting on the ground to landing. A GOOD CHUNK of the time the passenger has no idea what happened on the exit anyway unless there is video and even then hell they jumped from a plane and landed safely.

Do I think flips are bad, well they have their place and I have done them and they are fun! But sometimes the best bet is to REDUCE THE VARIABLES!

Just my 0.02 cents

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[NSEMN8R 0]

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I would guess that only 15 percent of my 500 tandem passengers have asked to do flips.

Chuck

That's amazing to me. I'll bet that out of my 300 or so tandems at least 90% have asked to do flips. I wonder why the huge difference?
I've done front flips on just about every jump since day one. Not for any particular reason other than that's the way everybody else does it where I jump so that's how I learned. The only time I refuse is if they're way old or fat or something.

[riggerrob 613]

I've done front flips on just about every jump since day one. Not for any particular reason other than that's the way everybody else does it where I jump so that's how I learned.

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Funny, in Pitt Meadows, senior instructors rarely flip exits. If a student asks for flips, the usual response is "Keep your eyes open and tell me how many flips we did."
Then the instructor does his standard, boring stable exit and the student perceives it as flips.
If a student wants to do flips at Pitt Meadows, he will have to ask a second or third string, part-time instructor.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I've done front flips on just about every jump since day one. Not for any particular reason other than that's the way everybody else does it where I jump so that's how I learned.

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Funny, in Pitt Meadows, senior instructors rarely flip exits. If a student asks for flips, the usual response is "Keep your eyes open and tell me how many flips we did."
Then the instructor does his standard, boring stable exit and the student perceives it as flips.
If a student wants to do flips at Pitt Meadows, he will have to ask a second or third string, part-time instructor.

Unless she's cute. In that case I'll pretty much do whatever she wants.

[Jester1833 0]

I was taught flips from day one and have done them on 99% of the tandems . Our DZO requires that we do them out of the 206 . I have never had any problems by doing them . So I guess it's more of a philosiphy and training than a safety issue as I see it , of course my opinion and a $1.00 will get you a cup of coffee most places.

[riggerrob 613]

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I was taught flips from day one and have done them on 99% of the tandems . Our DZO requires that we do them out of the 206 . I have never had any problems by doing them . So I guess it's more of a philosiphy and training than a safety issue as I see it , of course my opinion and a $1.00 will get you a cup of coffee most places.

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That's odd!
Do you have a P206 (co-pilot's door) or U206 (cargo door)?
I routinely do stable diving exits out of our 182s and 205.
It took me a while, but eventually I figured out how to do stable exits from U206s. The key is facing 3/4 forward in the door, then completing the turn as I push off, reaching towards the right wingtip with my right hand. Just for giggles, I usually slap the right main wheel with my left hand as I leave U206s.

[Jester1833 0]

P206 and yes I didnt say I couldnt do a stable exit out of one but that our DZO more or less requires it.

[riggerrob 613]

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P206 and yes I didn't say I couldn't do a stable exit out of one but that our DZO more or less requires it.

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Wow!
It is amazing how attitudes differ from one DZ to the next.
At Pitt Meadows, we prefer boring TIs who routinely do stable exits. Unstable exits are considered unprofessional, at worst, a sign that the TI is bored and should consider a new line of work.

[bosco 0]

What right have we to dictate the jump of a first timer. We are employed to make the first time jumper feel safe and at ease in their new environment. We may control the skydive but we did not pay for it and so have no right to "show off" our skills to the passenger who has absolutly no concept of what it is they are doing or the videographer who is there to capture the first timer and not the tandem JM.
I am a tandem IE for Strong and Vector.
I look for consistency, stability and good judgemet in all candidates who pass through my program.
We must be as professional as airline pilots as we also hold the lives of others in our hands.

[skydived19006 4]

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I was taught flips from day one and have done them on 99% of the tandems . Our DZO requires that we do them out of the 206 . I have never had any problems by doing them . So I guess it's more of a philosiphy and training than a safety issue as I see it , of course my opinion and a $1.00 will get you a cup of coffee most places.

I do a diving exit form our 182, hook up facing the rear of the plane. In my experience if I try for a no flip exit this way you go head down and a bit over toward your back and generally unless the passenger is doing a good arch it will roll to one side then flip back face to earth. I simply prefer to let the flip that’s half way there go on over and stabilize it after we go all the way over. Worst case I always have it stable and drogue out by 1000 feet off the plane, and that is a very rare worst case scenario. Personally I don’t see it as a “safety issue”, but that’s my opinion, and if you opinion differs form mine that’s fine with me. Luckily for me I see eye to eye with the DZO 100% of the time, I am the DZO. If I worked for someone else, I’d do it their way, or hit the highway. I do not require this exit form others!
One time I told my passenger that we were going to flip, but that she should arch as hard as she could. She was puzzled with that and questioned if we were going to flip if she should arch. I was a little surprised with her knowledge, and asked if she was a gymnast, “yes”. I figured that is she had a gymnasts since of orientation I’d let her decide if she wanted to do 2 or 3 flips, she said yes, I let her hold her knees on exit until I tapped and off we went (no video). If you argue that the first tandem passenger is generally disorientated, sensory overloaded, and that any flip is for the most part not even registered with them, I’d agree.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skydived19006 4]

Right now "survey shows" 59% do flips, at least form "certain types of aircraft".

Seems that the opposition is more vehement and vocal with their opinion.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[bosco 0]

reading back through some of the comments the reason some TMs do the flips/gainers etc is because the AC exit technique or set up door position would suggest it as an easier option. I spent ages trying to do a solid dive exit from a CASA before I went to the gainer which gave me a solid 270 flip to face the ground again. It took me some time and experimentation and advice from some high time TMs before I cracked the smooth dive (even with a the more difficult passenger).
I say to all to work on your skills, watch your own exits on TV and use your skills to be smooth and slick in your abilitys to own the skydive from exit to deployment.
I would always watch in awe how the more experienced TMs would make a dive look effortless. Aspire to this as its a huge buzz when it all falls into place.
Yes I see the bulk of the crowd do flips. but why follow the crowd!

[Jester1833 0]

wow now I am UN-professional because I do flips on exit? What kind of logic is that? Boy, that is very broad paintbrush my friend.

[Jester1833 0]

I agree with your comments , his equipment and dropzone, his rules . I think there is a basic lack of understanding of flips here and ignorance breeds fear. I was taught a philosiphy along with doing tandems so I understand both ways of doing things, and am open to hear other techniques for safely doing tandems. I am wondering how many of you where ever taught about sidespins of if you've ever had one and what causes one or even how to deal with one? (and No flips dont cause them) .

[LawnDart21 0]

I only have 700 tandem jumps in the last 2&1/2 years, so please take my opinion as the "newbie" opinion that it is, I haven't been doing this that long.

That said:

Flips needlessly increase the danger during a tandme jump by:
1) exposing the container to different orienations of relative wind flow which can increase the possibility of an accidental drogue deployment or open container during the flip.
2) I'm not sure of your source on this one, but returning to a stable posture (arching out of a flip) definitely can induce a side spin if the student does something funky.

Knowing that, do I still do flips? Yup. No amount of skill in the world can prevent going unstable periodically on exit. I choose to flip perodically as a means of staying current with unstable recovery procedures. I have spoken to my manufacture and they concur it is acceptable to do so.

I would be interested to hear more about the "basic lack of understanding of flips and ignorance breeding fear".

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[skydived19006 4]

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I am wondering how many of you where ever taught about sidespins of if you've ever had one and what causes one or even how to deal with one? (and No flips dont cause them) .

Never been in a side spin (600 or so tandems)! As I understand it’s caused when the passenger is de-arching and the instructor is arching )(. Long story short, fighting to flip something around may cause the spin. I’m 6’8” and I don’t fight, I’ll work to get the student to arch, if they are totally not arching, I’ll de-arch as well and we’ll fall stable on our backs for a few seconds until “the lights come back on” (on the rare occasion that I’ve done this, I’ve always had it stable and drogue out 1k off the plane). Again, worst case scenario, I’d throw the drogue on our backs between 6 and 7k, I would think that I could stop any flat spin causing issues as well if I’m leading the way.

Is that just all wrong? If so, give me some learn’n!

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[riggerrob 613]

Flips increase the risk of side-spins if the flips get sideways to the wind.
The easiest way to get into a sidespin is exiting a narrow side door - like a King Air - facing the wingtip.
The easiest way to prevent side spins is to immediately turn and face the propeller or dive towards the tail. If you never present your side to the wind, you dramatically reduce the chances of side spins.