Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit

[murps2000 86]

To flip or not to flip. As in many other aspects of the tandem skydive, I try to read the passenger. If they are in the distinct minority that I take that are heads up and not very nervous, I'll do flips on request. I try to avoid it when there's video, but if they persist with the requests, I'll do it. Obviously, I'll let the videographer know. I like when the passenger remembers getting a good look at the aircraft after we left. And I don't really train them any different with respect to body position on exit.

I'll also incorporate flips into higher level tandem progression dives.

[lopullterri 0]

I once had a TI tell me, "I do a flip and then a barrel roll. As I come face to earth on the barrel roll I pitch the drougue. It works for me so I'm going to go with it." What do you TI's think about this? I think it was a poor excuse for not learning to do a stable exit, which I don't believe I ever saw him do. Most of these were out of a C182, King Air and a Caravan.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[jdfreefly 1]

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There have been a few incidents of the drogue wrapping around tevas and causing a fatality. Regardless if it was flip induced or not.

I am of the opinion that tandem masters should not wear tevas.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Tonto 1]

My TM rating is no longer current, but I have 750 tandems.

When I had about 100 tandems, I'd do anything. As I gained more experience, I wanted to do less and less unpridictable stuff.

Get out, get stable, get the drouge out. Watch the clock, pull, land safe was all I wanted to do.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Liemberg 0]

Voted that I don't do flips at all but it should be "I don't do INTENTIONAL flips at all"
I'll 'go with the flow' rather than fighting with a student - so, occasionaly I'll flip (mostly front - mostly C182 as aircraft)
Others have already stated why.
IIRC there has been at least one tandem fatailty where the habit of a few flips on exit was a contributing factor when something deployed that should have stayed in place at that time...

When I was young and stupid I found out how a drogue bridle between my legs felt...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Liemberg 0]

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I am of the opinion that tandem masters should not wear tevas.

Why? Regardless of your footwear, you shouldn't throw the drogue around your ankles.
Teva's say:" It is not that cold up there and I think that we'll land softly." Might work as an eye-opener that helps your student to relax a bit and stay away from panic-induced dogfights with you...

Just a thought.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[riggerrob 558]

The other side of the argument against TIs wearing Tevas is that students expect instructors to lead by example.
It is difficult to insist on students wearing tennis shoes when instructors wear sandals.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The only time I will skydive in Tevas is if I am also wearing my bootie suit (which is normal for me on tandems). I don't skydive in them without booties because I can't stand to have them "blow out" or flip under on sliding landings. I destroyed quite a few sets of sandals before I figured out that it just wasn't smart.

Chuck

[sabr190 0]

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I once had a TI tell me, "I do a flip and then a barrel roll. As I come face to earth on the barrel roll I pitch the drougue. It works for me so I'm going to go with it." What do you TI's think about this? I think it was a poor excuse for not learning to do a stable exit, which I don't believe I ever saw him do. Most of these were out of a C182, King Air and a Caravan.

I can't speak for the TI you are using as an example here, but with the exception of my eval jumps made from a Twin Otter, all of my tandem jumps have been made from C182's and C206's. I can honestly say that it is easier to make a dive out to the rear with a front flip and barrel roll IMHO. But, if I had a King Air or Caravan to jump from I would choose the poised into the relative wind exit. To each his own, I guess

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[riggerrob 558]

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I once had a TI tell me, "I do a flip and then a barrel roll. As I come face to earth on the barrel roll I pitch the drougue. It works for me so I'm going to go with it." What do you TI's think about this? I think it was a poor excuse for not learning to do a stable exit, which I don't believe I ever saw him do. Most of these were out of a C182, King Air and a Caravan.

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I can't speak for the TI you are using as an example here, but with the exception of my eval jumps made from a Twin Otter, all of my tandem jumps have been made from C182's and C206's. I can honestly say that it is easier to make a dive out to the rear with a front flip and barrel roll IMHO. But, if I had a King Air or Caravan to jump from I would choose the poised into the relative wind exit. To each his own, I guess

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My last 2,000 tandem jumps out of Cessnas have involved diving out to the rear. Most of the time I stick my arms above my head, tuck my feet up my butt. We go vertical for a couple of seconds, then flatten out quickly. By vertical, I mean vertical relative to the horizon, but we are still belly-into-the-wind.

Every once in a while a student extends their legs, forcing us into a front loop: a distant second-best technique.

I think you are using a poor excuse for not learning how to do a stable exit.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I generally just go for a stable exit. If the student requests a flip, I will usually give them one. That policy backfired last year. A couple came to jump on Riggerrob's day off so I was going to take them on successive loads. The lady was about my height and about thirty pounds lighter than me. When she asked if we could do a loop I said sure. When she told her 250lb husband he said, "Oh, I didn't know we could do that. That'll be cool." Her loop went nicely but he didn't arch to come out of his and I spent about 1000' on my back. Video laughed his ass off at me when I landed.

[slotperfect 7]

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Voted that I don't do flips at all but it should be "I don't do INTENTIONAL flips at all"

I put the word "intentional" in the title (subject) of the post. I try to keep my poll options as short and effective as possible.

Arrive Safely

John

[Skymonkey2 0]

With over 1500 tandems, I try never to do flips, but plan for them depending on the student size and aircraft. I try to do a stable exit every time. One for safety and two for the sake of the student. I try to show the student a stable exit so they know it can be done so if they want to learn to skydive they have a pretty good understanding. If a student comes back and is not looking to learn, but jsut likes doing tandems and they ask for a flip or two I will probably do them. Hey Chuck hows NC again, I talked to Shady Monkey last weekend, out in Cal. He says hi. later

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[sabr190 0]

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I once had a TI tell me, "I do a flip and then a barrel roll. As I come face to earth on the barrel roll I pitch the drougue. It works for me so I'm going to go with it." What do you TI's think about this? I think it was a poor excuse for not learning to do a stable exit, which I don't believe I ever saw him do. Most of these were out of a C182, King Air and a Caravan.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I can't speak for the TI you are using as an example here, but with the exception of my eval jumps made from a Twin Otter, all of my tandem jumps have been made from C182's and C206's. I can honestly say that it is easier to make a dive out to the rear with a front flip and barrel roll IMHO. But, if I had a King Air or Caravan to jump from I would choose the poised into the relative wind exit. To each his own, I guess

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My last 2,000 tandem jumps out of Cessnas have involved diving out to the rear. Most of the time I stick my arms above my head, tuck my feet up my butt. We go vertical for a couple of seconds, then flatten out quickly. By vertical, I mean vertical relative to the horizon, but we are still belly-into-the-wind.

Every once in a while a student extends their legs, forcing us into a front loop: a distant second-best technique.

I think you are using a poor excuse for not learning how to do a stable exit.

Geez..............It's a good thing opinions are free

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[efs4ever 3]

I'll do flips with "experienced" tandems. That is, those who have recently made a jump. (And request it) It's a learning experience about getting stable.

I like sandals, but I recently started jumping in tennis shoes. Nothing like a snagged line to ruin your day.

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[Liemberg 0]

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I can't stand to have them "blow out"

Granted, I felt rather stupid on the occasion that I had to ask the passenger in front of me to 'redo' my left sandal. But the ones I wear now (on hot summer days that is) never failed me, even with sliding landings.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[crutch 0]

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I think it was a poor excuse for not learning to do a stable exit,

Dude, what is this all about, sounds like a little jealousy!

blue skies,

art

[diablopilot 2]

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I can't stand to have them "blow out"

So I had another sort of "blow out" last weekend.

Cute girl, about 110lbs, was having a great skydive when she reaches up and starts fiddling with her goggles. WTF? So we get the canopy open and she says "BOOGERS!, I got boogers on my goggles!" I said then take em off if you want and we had a laugh.

So we land, and I un hook her. She stands up and turns around and holy crap I thought she had brains all over her forehead! Looks like her sinus "Blew out" and just missed ending up in my face... glad she didn't turn her head to the side in freefall. Gawd I didn't know your head could hold that much snot.

Ok back to the subject at hand!

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jdfreefly 1]

I agree that you shouldn't throw the drogue around your ankles. But regardless, shit happens and believe it or not that velcro on those sandals is strong enough to colapse the drogue and keep it pinned to your foot.

I like to eliminate the possible "bad scenarios" . As I said, it is just my opinion. I think it adds a small risk to an already risky skydive.

Of course, I stopped jumping in tevas altogether after I screwed up a swoop, had to avoid something and came down sliding hard on gravel with my right foot pinned under my left leg, kind of a baseball slide. Tore a good bit of skin off of my foot.

I love the feel of jumping in them, but since then I have only done it once and it was because I had forgotten my jumping shoes.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[douwanto 22]

I dont really think flips add that much danger to any tandem.
As a tandem instructor you should be able to gain stabality from any exit. In very quick order.
I do flips 50 percent of the time and find it simple to have the student stay balled up until I tap their shoulders. When I open up after 2,3,4, flips however many I want to do this presents a great center of gravity and puts us face to earth instantly.
If they dont do as told well then it is like the 5 to 10 % that go to the Zoo any way and I do what I am supposed to do any how get stable and set the drouge.
Side note: There were some study jumps done last year concerning Teva's and they are not advised for TI's because of they are big hooks on your feet. Would you take a student with hooks on their boots???? Not with out taping them!!
I dont have any paticulars on the jumps I have heard they were done in responce to the Tandem accident in Hawaii 2002. but have no other info.
The DZO at Skydive Tallahassee relayed this info to me.and has since stopped all TI's from wearing TEVA's.

Chris

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[riggerrob 558]

Side note: There were some study jumps done last year concerning Teva's and they are not advised for TI's because of they are big hooks on your feet. Would you take a student with hooks on their boots???? Not with out taping them!!
... I have heard they were done in responce to the Tandem accident in Hawaii 2002. but have no other info.
The DZO at Skydive Tallahassee relayed this info to me.and has since stopped all TI's from wearing TEVA's.

Chris

[readysetjo 0]

OK....so I'm not a TM but you can flip me on a tandem exit any time you want, just say when!

Your attitude in life determines your altitude!!!

[skydiver30960 0]

Used to do front filps all the time, because I had just moved to a turbine DZ and figured I had the extra altitude so let's have some fun! But after a while it got to be too much, we were burning up so much altitude in the flips and recovery that the videographers were wasting face-time getting to us, even when they knew the flips were coming. Now I usually just "poise" them off the plane and the exits (and videos) have been SO much better...

Elvisio "more of my .02 on tandems" Rodriguez

[lug 4]

I have done back and forward flips in the past if I was comfortable with the student, but that was then. Today if a student asks to flip out the door my reply is, I will do what I can, and then give them a nice stable exit, hips to the relative wind or maybe a diving exit. I have never heard a disappointed comment for a student for not doing a flip, but I agree in that the student usually never knows.

Memento Mori

[skydiverton 0]

I never do intentional flips. For the students it does not matter but why wold I take extra risk concerning premature openings or sidespins. I normally do posed exit face forward (in a C206) Even in case the passenger does a reversed arc I can exit very easy and throw the droque. After that I will correct the passenger. The shape of the passenger does not matter because I'm stable with the wind blowing against our front.

I'm not very large, and that even works with passengers a lot taller than me


I also love the booties on my tandemsuit. It gives me so much more control

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Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig