Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit

[riggerrob 558]

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I never do intentional flips. For the students it does not matter but why would I take extra risk concerning premature openings or sidespins. I normally do posed exit face forward (in a C206)

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Do you have a U206 (rear cargo door) or P206 (co-pilot's door)?

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[Voluptuosa 0]

My standard answer when my passengers ask me to do flips is "sure," followed by a perfectly stable exit, because they very rarely know the difference. I will, however, bend that rule in certain circumstances. If the person has done a tandem either with me or with a tandem master from whom I can get feedback from about their composure, I'd be comfortable enough to take them for a spin. On their first jump, not a chance!

I had one guy come out and jump with me every year on his birthday and we did different things each time: loops, tandem terminal, tracking... but on the first one, it was still a basic exit.

Blue skies,
Charlene
(Yes, I'm a chick. Yes, I have over 1100 tandems.)

[skydiverton 0]

Rear cargo door. Just sit in the door like a student and exit facing the prop

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[crutch 0]

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My standard answer when my passengers ask me to do flips is "sure," followed by a perfectly stable exit, because they very rarely know the difference.

So we "lie" to our students? Doesn't the video expose you?

blue skies,

art

[bluskidave 0]

DZO at our drop zone says no intentional flips on exit. They happen but its not by design.He will fire your ass if he catches it on video so my vote is that I don't do them intentionally.

[slotperfect 7]

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DZO at our drop zone says no intentional flips on exit.

Can you elaborate a bit? What type of aircraft do you have at your DZ? What is the DZO's reason for this policy?

Thanks!

Arrive Safely

John

[bluskidave 0]

His reason's are 1 he says it is very easy to go into a side spin with these types of exits and 2 you hose your camera man.When I first started doing tandems I did a couple of front loops and had advised the camera man of this. As soon as the video came up he came over to me and stated that we don't do those here for the above stated reasons. i.e. I had been warned.Aircraft at the time was a super otter, now we jump a grand caravan and the twin- bo.As big as I am about 50% of my exits are a front roll from the T-Bo.Not "intentional" so no flak on those. I'm curious to know what you think is the greatest cause of sidespins. Blue Skies Dave

[riggerrob 558]

I'm curious to know what you think is the greatest cause of sidespins. Blue Skies Dave

[slotperfect 7]

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I'm curious to know what you think is the greatest cause of sidespins.

Rob kinda beat me to it, but I'll throw in my two cents.

1) Exposing the side of the tandem pair to the relative wind on exit.
2) An irregular student (and sometimes TM) body position, creating a less-than-smooth flying surface.

Arrive Safely

John

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm curious to know what you think is the greatest cause of sidespins.

Loose laterals.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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Loose laterals.

What about certain systems being more suspect to have sidespin problems due to lateral placement on the student harness/tandem harness?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

Like which ones? Strong Eclipse and Vector are near enough to the same I couldn't give you a difference.

Racer Tandems are a joke.

Haven't had any enough experience with any others to give you an evaluation.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[3ringheathen 0]

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His reason's are 1 he says it is very easy to go into a side spin with these types of exits and 2 you hose your camera man.

An experienced camera flyer shouldn't have any trouble staying with a tandem doing a few flips.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[crutch 0]

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Loose laterals.

At one time I may have believed this, but none of the side spins I have been in had loose laterals. In fact, I have been leaving them looser than I was taught 15 years ago. I think it has to do with body position of the student versus the TM. The ones have have been in also "broke" into the sidespin, similar to an airplane falling off on a wing when stalling. Who knows, maybe there is some strange similarity, hell I don't know? I do know that having a "stable" exit doesn't prevent it, spending loads of time with a student practicing doesn't help and definitely the size of the person isn't a factor.

blue skies,

art

[diablopilot 2]

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At one time I may have believed this, but none of the side spins I have been in had loose laterals. In fact, I have been leaving them looser than I was taught 15 years ago.

It's my belief that a properly adjusted and attached harness can assist in keeping the student's body position favorable.

I also think that "resisting" a roll over when the side of a tandem pair is oriented to the relative wind on exit can exacerbate a situation. "Going with the flow" tends to smooth things out. If your student is fetal and your spinning, try going fetal yourself and taking the spin out of it. Then rollover.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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It's my belief that a properly adjusted and attached harness can assist in keeping the student's body position favorable.

It can, but sometimes that doesn't really help much. The sidespin I had was on a properly adjusted Sigma system. Having everything right with tight laterals can only put another check in the box for prevention.

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"Going with the flow" tends to smooth things out.

Most of the time, yes, being willing to "go with the flow" has helped me out (I believe it has) before, but sometimes you're in a position that it doesn't help and you have to force something to happen.

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If your student is fetal and your spinning, try going fetal yourself and taking the spin out of it. Then rollover.

I had a student do that, well sort of, he went 1/2 fetal, creating a giant "cup" to keep us unstable. Balled up around him, went to our back, rolled drogue side up and tossed as I was coming out of the roll. Nice and smooth, not even a bounce.
With that said, the student that I had a sidespin with, well, he went bad, just flat out bad. Had his legs under him, but not tight, with his legs spread slightly, not semetrical. Same with his hands. The worst part is, I couldn't move him. I grabbed him and try to pull him into an arch (while yelling ARCH into his ear) and I couldn't budge him. So I tried balling up and moving him into more of a fetal postion (with a tight fetal position, they're like a rock, easy stability), once again I couldn't budge him. He was a pencil necked 150lbs 18-year old, I benchpress over twice his weight and I couldn't move him. He literally froze up.

My point is, the things you mentioned work, most of the time, sometimes you get a "winner" and they don't work.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

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An experienced camera flyer shouldn't have any trouble staying with a tandem doing a few flips.

Agreed. But it's nice when the TI lets the Vidiot in on the "game".

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Voluptuosa 0]

The "lie" is reserved for the testosterone filled 18 year olds who won't take the truth of "I don't feel it's safe" for an answer. Then, I resort to the lie.

And, no, even with video, those particular passengers don't seem to notice. (Note that I called them "passengers" and not "students." This type of paying customer tends to only be out for a ride and not to actually learn anything.)

[pajarito 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/auskydiver/Skydive_Opelika&image=skydive_001.jpg&img=&tt=


Caw!!! Caw!!!

[skybeergodd 0]

I've got alittle over 800 tamdems and I'll do front or backflips with the students if they request it. The type of plane we are jumping dictates whether it is a front or back flip. Tailgates are back flips and most other aircraft are front flips.

[Liemberg 0]

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Had his legs under him, but not tight, with his legs spread slightly, not semetrical.

I have the feeling that I use my legs more than my arms, to control things. It may be that when the student spreads HIS legs, he disturbes 'my controls'.
That is why, nowadays, I teach them to keep their knees together when arching. ("Put your feet on the TM's butt")
I have seen a few video's of tandems 'going funky after exit / before drogue pull' - including myself in the leading role
Common denominator seems to be a de-arching student (at the hips) with fully extended legs that disturb the airflow around the instructors legs.
Most people that 'freeze' in the wrong body-position stil have their hands on their harness at that time.
I find that even big guys 'going fetal' (knees to the chest) can be controlled and pose no problem. But long legs, de-arched and spread out do. (Sometimes a tendency to start spinning under the drogue)

Just an observation...

(And I do believe the laterals should be as-tight-as-can-be-without-chocking-the-student...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[cpoxon 0]

Not long ago I would have put I don't do flips at all but since then I done a couple intentionally, so I guess it's occasionally, for the right person.

At my dropzone, there is usually a mass briefing for all of the tandem students who all arrive first thing. The instructor who sometimes does it is quite adventurous and will quite often suggest that flips are available if you so wish and to talk the instructor if that's what you desire. Most don't mention it because they are scared enough as it is and don't fancy the prospect of a bigger scare! Being a low time instructor I've always declined truthfully saying that I'm not as experienced as the other instructors and don't do flips but that they'll get to see the aircraft as they leave (with a pivotting, square to slipstream exit) and they are still going to have a lot of fun.

A couple of weeks ago, I had a young lady, who had previously done a tandem (although not with me), and gone through AFF ground school but decided it wasn't for her before the jump. However, she did want to do another tandem. In the aircraft she said can we do some back flips on exit? At this point, I'd done just over a hundred tandems. I'd said to myself that I wouldn't do anything tricky until I had at least 100 tandems. So she'd done a tandem before, we were going to be out last with no video so I thought it was an ideal situation especially without a video to spoil with flailing ungracefullness :-) As we were getting ready she casually mentioned that she'd got her arms and legs "all wrong" last time. My fault for not inquiring to deeply about her previous tandem before agreeing to a funky exit! Became more aware that she was only about 120 pounds. Also said I'd reserve funky exits for the bigger guys who's limbs couldn't override their mass so easily! Oh well. Exit was from a Caravan so I rotated on the floor inside the door and rolled us out backwards. The roll out went well and controlled but her arms and legs came out uncommanded and akwardly. I levelled it out. I wouldn't say it was a side spin but it felt like it could go that way quickly so I got the drogue out but probably not at my most stable. Drogue deployment was fine and everything settled down. On the ground I resolved that the next one would be with someone bigger...and maybe in another 100 jumps :-)

Then a couple of weekends later, I had the opportunity to take another lady on a tandem who I'd previously taken before. She was considering doing AFF and wanted to do another tandem just to make sure. When we did the first tandem, she was very aware and controlled, making her an ideal candidate, in my opinion. She also asked for some back loops on exit. With the previous attempt fresh in my mind and my resolve to only do it with bigger people, I was inclined to refuse, but I had a good rapport with the student and was willing to have another go. Exit was to be from an Islander this time and I was considering a layout type exit due to the proximity of the wheel strut but was concerned that it was something new and might not be able to get a good rotation, so I reprised the roll-out backwards through the door. The exit went really well with two nice loops. I'd briefed the student that since the exit was from a seated position with our legs raised, it was important for her to get them back between mine after exit. I had my legs tucked for the loop but I felt her legs being strongly pushed back between mine. Very switched on. There was a little rocking coming out of the loop on drogue deployment but it was stable. Might put the video up on skydivingmovies.com if anyone was interested?

So, yeah, I'll do them sometimes, depending on the student, but they are not the norm for me. Here are a couple of stills from the second jump I was talking about...

Image026_24A
Image025_23A

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[skydiveacapulco 0]

i try not to do flips, to me it's important to get stable, get the drogue out no posing no showing off just be safe,

blue sky sand and sun.

[skydived19006 4]

My DZ uses a Cessna 182, and I exit form the step facing the tail. In a perfect world with this exit we would go head down then settle into belly to earth. As you know tandem skydiving is anything but a perfect world, and it usually goes over and rotates back form the side to belly to earth if you both arch right off the plane. I let it go over, and right off the step I'm tapping the student on both thighs. Works for me! Never been in a side spin with a tandem, it might have something to do with the fact that I’m 6’8” (that’s right at 2 meters for those in the metric world) and have been able to control everything I’ve been given in 450 or so tandems. There have been a few that took everything I could put out to keep us form turning, so I understand how a smaller instructor might have an issue.

My most “stand out” student was “former military” with military jumps, always be suspect of these guys. He did a nice “superman” slightly dearched and straight form fingertip to toe, no way even I could flip him over! I dearched with him so we would settle on our backs and started hitting him! After a thousand feet of beating him on the thighs he did arch for me.

Ever notice that it’s like trying to hit someone under water when you’re in freefall?

Martin Myrtle
DZO
Air Capital Drop Zone
Wichita Kansas USA!

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[livendive 8]

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Rear cargo door. Just sit in the door like a student and exit facing the prop

Every single time I do that exit from a C206 w/ cargo door I end up with nasty-ass bruises on the backs of my thighs (including when I did my static line jumps as a student). I resign myself to those bruises if I've got an advancing student that needs to know how to do a head-high exit, but otherwise I just kneel in the door with the student sitting on the edge and then dive out toward the rear.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)