DB Cooper

[BruceSmith 3]

The difficulty with covert insertion and extraction speaks directly to my point about MKULTRA - the effort to develop operatives who could be switched on and off - it makes extraction a lot easier - ie: change personality and maybe gender, then grab a ticket and jump on a plane without a care in the world... La-di-dah.

On the flip side, insertion: MKULTRA could de-sensitize an operative to 14 degree F cold, rain, pitch black darkness, unfamiliar chutes, and problematic LZs, all the while wearing loafers, but not a tie......

[snowmman 3]

If Cooper had jumped with the tie still on, what would we have theorized that meant?

So by taking it off, does it mean the opposite of jumping with it?

Or do we just ignore the tie?

I'm not sure why people mention shoes so much. I thought we agreed we have no idea what kind of shoes Cooper wore.

I constantly lose track of why Cooper was not an expert. I guess there's the stairs thing. I guess he wasn't a stair expert. So that makes him a bumbler all together, I guess.

I wonder, if his behavior around the stairs actually reveals knowledge. If I was nervous about not knowing for sure whether the stairs would open in flight, I'd push for taking off with the stairs down. Isn't that the rational thing to do?

I'm glad Ckret has kept track of why Cooper was a bumbler. I forget all the time.

[377 21]

Quote

I'd push for taking off with the stairs down. Isn't that the rational thing to do?

Not sure about that.

Jets have to rotate (pitch up) to take off from normal airport length runways where propliners can just sort of lift off without much pitch change if they want to. Not sure of the reason, but it might be that the prop blast gives enough airspeed over the wing to generate takeoff lift where a jet has to depend on speed and angle of attack to get lift.

I think taking off with a 727's stairs deployed could cause stair damage or worse.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I think taking off with a 727's stairs deployed could cause stair damage or worse.

377

So you're saying the Da Nang video we reviewed, where they took off with the stairs down, doesn't count because someone was standing on them?

Why do we care about stair damage anyhow?

it's a rathole anyhow. Like most Cooper stuff, there's little reason to debate (we've touched on everything possible already)

[snowmman 3]

from the Boeing article (recent) "Exceeding Tire Speed Rating During Takeoff"
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_02_09/pdfs/AERO_Q209_article04.pdf

there is a nice graphic on takeoff angles for all Boeing jets, including 727.

on 727-200, says 7 to 9 degrees, changing to 14 degrees at 35 feet.
(obviously it can vary)

Says recommended rotation rate is 2 to 3 degrees per second, with the target liftoff altitude reached in 3 to 4 seconds.

see attached. In contrast, look at the MD-11 (last in the graphic)

(edit) I guess it's a tire speed issue because of what they show on page 5 of the article

"A 747-400 taking off with a rotation rate that is 1 degree per second slower than normal can result in a 4 to 6 knot liftoff speed increase" ..so they're looking at ground speed at liftoff.

[georger 197]

Remember - in the few wks prior to the find of the money on Tena's bar that there had been some flooding due to the snow melt in the higher area. No responsible farmer would have put his cattle on the river during that time.
reply]

1. The extent of that flooding just prior to discovery
is not estabplished for Tina Bar. All we know is it
was wet, whatever wet means. It is tempting to associate the discovery of the money with this
wet period, but the condition of the money pit
suggests otherwise ...

In addition, we have conflicting data. Fazio's say
'flood', USGS says no flood. USGS and NOAA data
suggest '79 was a dry year, drier than usual. There
definately was not extensive flooding the winter of 79. Ive never been able to resolve these contradictions and of course all FBI files I know of
are mute on the whole subject.

2. The money was already in place prior to this
event. The condition of the money guarantees this. Likewise cattle activity on the bar.

3. We dont know what Fazio did or did not do at
that time ... all we know is one said there had been flooding. I dont doubt for a minute Fazio was correct.
I just cant find anything to prove it.

[BruceSmith 3]

A "Breaking News" piece that I just submitted to a Pierce County, Washington newspaper:


National Geographic dumps local authors from DB Cooper documentary



With only days before local authors Ron and Pat Forman were to appear on a National Geographic TV special on legendary skyjacker DB Cooper, they and their story about Thun Pilot Barb Dayton have been pulled from the broadcast.

“I guess our story was just too controversial for them, said Ron Forman.

The Formans, writers of “The Legend of DB Cooper: Death by Natural Causes,” had described how their life-long friend and fellow Thun Field pilot, Barb Dayton, confessed to being DB Cooper in the late 1970s. In their book the Formans reveal the details of how Dayton said she hijacked Northwest Orient Flight 305, a commercial jetliner enroute to Sea-Tac, the day before Thanksgiving, 1971.

Throughout late 2008 and early 2009, the producers of the Cooper documentary, Edge West Productions had spent several weeks in the Thun Field area filming the Formans’ story. At that time, Phil Day, owner of Edge West announced he planned to feature the Formans and the Barb Dayton angle in the documentary.

Katie Greenfield, a spokesperson for Edge West, informed the [newspaper] late last week of the change:

“Unfortunately, the executives at National Geographic chose to cut the Barb Dayton story from the film. This was disappointing to see it go but it was ultimately out of our hands. We are of course grateful to all the help and information the Formans’ and associates shared with us regarding Barb.”

Titled, “The Skyjacker Who Got Away,” the special airs Sunday, July 26 at 7 pm and 10 pm PDT on Sunday July 26 on the National Geographic cable channel.

[snowmman 3]

Bruce reported: "National Geographic dumps local authors from DB Cooper documentary"

Hmm.

I thought it was correlated to my posting about the problem with assassinations: you have to be willing to take out the assassination team also.

No matter. Just means I have to fine tune The Model.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

1. The extent of that flooding just prior to discovery
is not estabplished for Tina Bar. All we know is it
was wet, whatever wet means. It is tempting to associate the discovery of the money with this
wet period, but the condition of the money pit
suggests otherwise ...

So you are saying that Fazio and other locals lied to the media and thereafter about the flooding within a few wks of the money find in February of 1980 and the yrs following that. I tend to take the word of the locals who reported this and were interviewed and writers who actually interviewed some of these people. Use the science stuff, but don't try change what was reported as fact by more than one party to substantiate a search 35 yrs plus later.

Indeed the money may have already been on the beach at the time of the high water, but the local fishermen felt it was deposited by the rising or flood water. Fishermen usually know the lay of their fishing sites and the shore lines ...it was the way some made their living...and how some fed their families.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

1. The extent of that flooding just prior to discovery
is not estabplished for Tina Bar. All we know is it
was wet, whatever wet means. It is tempting to associate the discovery of the money with this
wet period, but the condition of the money pit
suggests otherwise ...

So you are saying that Fazio and other locals lied to the media and thereafter about the flooding within a few wks of the money find in February of 1980.

Where did I say the Fazio's were lying?
I did not say that.
I said, quote: "I dont doubt for a minute Fazio was correct."

Final adios to you -

[snowmman 3]

Benjamin felt a nose nuzzling at his shoulder. He looked round. It was Clover. Her old eyes looked dimmer than ever. Without saying anything, she tugged gently at his mane and led him round to the end of the big barn, where the Seven Commandments were written. For a minute or two they stood gazing at the tarred wall with its white lettering.

"My sight is failing," she said finally. "Even when I was young I could not have read what was written there. But it appears to me that that wall looks different. Are the Seven Commandments the same as they used to be, Benjamin?"

For once Benjamin consented to break his rule, and he read out to her what was written on the wall. There was nothing there now except a single Commandment. It ran:

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS

[377 21]

Quote

So you're saying the Da Nang video we reviewed, where they took off with the stairs down, doesn't count because someone was standing on them?

Oops, forgot bout Madman Ed Daly's 727 stunt Snow.

I actually met him once. He had a totally decked out deluxe interior Convair Twin (240?) exec plane based in Oakland CA. He drank a LOT. Wonder if he was toasted when he did that 727 show out of Da Nang? Cooper had some Bourbon in him too.

Did Billy W favor Bourbon?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Below - Quotes from Snowmmans post.

"the recent stuff on the CIA special project that was kind-of-in-flight-but-not-really, that Cheney ordered not to be revealed to Congress..i.e. assassination teams"

"There's all sorts of leaks happening now."

"If you pay someone (someone is getting paid. Only if you convince a true psycho, would someone do it for free)...to shoot other people, in a black operation..what do you do with the shooter 30 years later?"

"Hey if Jo wants to get a great conspiracy, read all the books about Ted Shackley...the "Blond Ghost"."

"There's your direct JMWAVE/Laos CIA station chief connection. Wilson was connected to him too."


I reseached Shackley in the very beginning - and have continued to go back and review the old information and any new information that surfaces. I noted you made no mention of Wilson's attorney and his expertise regarding recent developments and "leaks".

Question: What do you do with an "incidental" operative and "black" operatives who did not get paid and took what was owed them leaving behind "a calling card" only the "operators" would recognize. Bamboozeled!

Worst, what do they do if any of the parties told someone else?
Several answers, but I like the last one best. Convince the the witnesses and the world it was an illusion by distorting the facts and that anyone who might be involved even after the fact was delusional.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

Quote

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Orwell must have had a Border Collie.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Quote

I'm glad Ckret has kept track of why Cooper was a bumbler. I forget all the time.

Been ages since Carr has made any substantive statements about Cooper. When Larry is on the National Geo show will "his" Cooper still be a dead bumbler, ADD engineer/loadmaster?

So Barb Dayton wasn't a credible enough Cooper for the show?

Wonder if they will even mention the Thailand Air America 727 jumps? Billy W?

If they feature Duane and omit Billy (and Billy's DBC suspect) entirely it will tell me a lot about how much research they did.

Maybe the show can use the Who's TOMMY as theme music during discussion of the Tena Bar research:

"He's a paintball wizard..."

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Preview video of the DB show is now available at National Geographic...I told them to put it up tonight for Orange1:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/the-skyjacker-that-got-away-4375/Overview#tab-Videos/06955_00

[georger 197]

Quote

Preview video of the DB show is now available at National Geographic...I told them to put it up tonight for Orange1:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/the-skyjacker-that-got-away-4375/Overview#tab-Videos/06955_00

Funny. Requires the most up-to-date Adobe Flash
player. Whoop ti doo!

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

I'm glad Ckret has kept track of why Cooper was a bumbler. I forget all the time.

Been ages since Carr has made any substantive statements about Cooper. When Larry is on the National Geo show will "his" Cooper still be a dead bumbler, ADD engineer/loadmaster?

So Barb Dayton wasn't a credible enough Cooper for the show?

Wonder if they will even mention the Thailand Air America 727 jumps? Billy W?

If they feature Duane and omit Billy (and Billy's DBC suspect) entirely it will tell me a lot about how much research they did.

Maybe the show can use the Who's TOMMY as theme music during discussion of the Tena Bar research:

"He's a paintball wizard..."

377

And why would this program feature or mention
Billy Waugh?

You people either take yourselves WAY too seriously
or ... some animals have way too much time on their hands.

[377 21]

Quote

And why would this program feature or mention
Billy Waugh?

.

Perhaps they shouldn't mention ANY suspect Georger since there is no hard evidence linking any person to the crime, but this is TV and ENTERTAINMENT is a primary goal. You gotta point some fingers of suspicion to hold the audience.

Here is what I said. You can't parse it and get the full meaning. Duane is part of the conditional logic statement:

Quote

If they feature Duane and omit Billy (and Billy's DBC suspect) entirely it will tell me a lot about how much research they did.

You wrote:

Quote

You people either take yourselves WAY too seriously
or ... some animals have way too much time on their hands.

Guilty as charged. Your plea?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

I liked the preview even though they are boarding a Douglas DC 9/MD 80 and the spelling on Cooper's RAYOVAC bomb battery is wrong, perhaps intentionally.

Bruce will LOVE this (all on the same preview page):


Image: CIA Secret Experiement (sic) History Events
CIA EXPERIMENTS

Mastering the art of mind control.
Visit Site


Image: Soldiers silhouettes Inside the Green Berets
The True Cost of War

Inside the Green Berets

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Hey, Orange, thanks for the kind words.

Speaking of Africa, I'm having flashbacks of my first girlfriend, a woman named Michele who told me a fantastic story of being 10 years old in 1960 and how she and her family had to leave the Congo in the middle of the night to escape the troops of anti-colonial forces.

They fled to what was then called Rhodesia, where she grew up until high school and then her family relocated to Brussels, Belgium. I met her during our freshman year of college in Philadelphia, and at the time I just accepted her story, including her description of her father as an executive of Arrow shirts.

Now, I figure he was a CIA operative, or some kind of shadowy State Department envoy and they had to skidaddle Lumumba's guys, taking a rest stop in the white man land of R before he found a new job in the NATO world of Bruxelles, as she spelled it.

When Billy said Bradon went to Africa, I assume he's talking about Angola. Any thoughts on what else Bradon might have been doing in your neck o' the woods?

(Hey, Michele, give me a call!)

Africa's a big "neck of the woods". Why did you assume Angola? CIA were active there, but were active in many places. I'm not sure how much is CIA vs "American" but most of the local resistance groups to Marxist revolutionaries were supported by the US (including eg Renamo in Mozambiwue, Unita in Angola etc). (This ended up putting the US and the apartheid government on the same side of course.)

I was at university with a girl from a Portugese family who had lived in Mozambique when she was a kid. When liberation came and Frelimo took over, she said they literally fled - left everything behind except a suitcase of clothes and took the train to South Africa, hoping all the while they would reach the border in time. Scary days for some people. I doubt they had any CIA connections though!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

If Cooper had jumped with the tie still on, what would we have theorized that meant?

So by taking it off, does it mean the opposite of jumping with it?

Maybe he thought it would be stupid to jump with a tie so left it behind. Occam's razor. No "message".

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

If Cooper had jumped with the tie still on, what would we have theorized that meant?

So by taking it off, does it mean the opposite of jumping with it?

Maybe he thought it would be stupid to jump with a tie so left it behind. Occam's razor. No "message".

Very interesting idea. The innocent-naive Cooper.
Fits with Larry's theory. Sadly, the tie can't talk.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Quote

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

One of the best books ever written. (Not up for debate )

(For Snow: a post that is completely off topic but is in response to another.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

If Cooper had jumped with the tie still on, what would we have theorized that meant?

So by taking it off, does it mean the opposite of jumping with it?

Maybe he thought it would be stupid to jump with a tie so left it behind. Occam's razor. No "message".

Very interesting idea. The innocent-naive Cooper.
Fits with Larry's theory. Sadly, the tie can't talk.

Neither innocent nor naive, necessarily. Stunts aside, skydivers wouldn't jump with ties.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.