DB Cooper

[JerryThomas 0]

I don't have the book here Jerry loaned it to his son and it hasn't been returned yet.I do know that there was a debriefing and that ralph had talked to scott more than once.When Jerry searches he looks for metal objects as well as material items. He believes that there maybe pieces of the parachute still in tact especialy thick pieces he also believes that the parachute never opened. He is also looking for pieces of bone he does not think he will find a skeliton just pieces of bone.There is a lot of field mice out in the woods and they will use any material objects they find to make there nest for this reason and detoration factors he doesn't believe there will be any money found. Just to give you an Idea of some of the strange things he has found,once he found a orange golf ball in a area that was about 3 miles from any road deep in the woods he couln't understand how it got there untill a year later. He finally figured it out .This is how.We had goten one of those orange foam 76 balls that you put on the antina of your car and a hawk flew down and took it. Thats how he thinks the orange golf ball got to where he found it.After seeing that we both figure that regardless of where something is left it can be found anywhere. I don't mean to bore you with some of these stories but i figure a little humor is needed. If these little stories bother anyone I won't mention them and i'll just stick to answering your questions the best I can. Shelly

[snowmman 3]

People here have no problem pointing out that Jo has wasted her life for 13 years, with her thoughts on Duane being Cooper.

It seems just as obvious to me, that Jerry Thomas has wasted time (other than just enjoying being in the woods) tromping about in the woods where he's searching.

Why is there all this support for Jerry Thomas' adventures, and none for Jo?

They seem equivalent to me.

What's different?

Is there some secret info the A-list has?

I think maybe Jerry has been led astray by bad info though, not because he's nuts.

It would seem wrong to continue to support him, when it's obvious he has bad information. Who is that helping? Jerry?
Himmelsbach?

What I don't understand, is that Himmelsbach is a pilot. Is he a bad pilot? or have people attributed things to him that he didn't say. A pilot should have been able to say "No way" to a lot of this nonsense we're hearing about Flight 305 flight paths.

[snowmman 3]

people always find weird things in the woods.
there are plenty of forums that have had very interesting stories.

12 pages of interesting stories here:

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=148441

one guy actually found an airplane wing flap in a plowed field.

(edit) at that site, re golf ball stories
"A friend has a habit of putting a golf ball in very remote places where it will be spotted by the next person who eventually comes along. He will put it on a stump at a trail intersection, or on a large rock outcropping that over looks a canyon.. stuff like that. WHAT A DRIVE !!!"

[377 21]

I used to fly ultralight airplanes, mostly Eipper MXs. Early one morning I was walking on 3d Ave in San Francisco near Golden Gate Park, and what do I see in the street? An entire rudder from an Eipper MX. It was in great shape. I advertised my find all over the ultralight community and nobody claimed it or knew of an Eipper MX missing a rudder. Go figure. Reminds me of that movie Donnie Darko.

There has been some buzz on another forum about an entire old skydiving rig found very intact in a Swedish forest. Whose was it? How did it get there?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Well you're probably right.Jerry got his pilots liscense when he was 16 yrs old.you must understand that the search area easest access is from a road that follows stebins creek then goes west and and towards the head waters of most of the streams that flow to the columbia river.The only way the money could have made its way to the columbia river is down one of these streams. This fact has been verified by a hydrologist from the Army Corp of Engineers that worked at bonneville dam. Jerry may never find anything but he will continue to search and follow any leads he is given. But I do thank you for your comments. Shelly

[snowmman 3]

Quote

The only way the money could have made its way to the columbia river is down one of these streams.

Hi Shelly.

Why do you think that?

Do you have a particular time you think Cooper jumped? And from where?

Why don't you think Cooper landed near the Columbia, for instance?

(edit) Are you aware, that it's very likely that Himmelsbach was wrong about the predicted jump time and area? Or if you believe he was correct, can you summarize why you think that?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I used to fly ultralight airplanes, mostly Eipper MXs. Early one morning I was walking on 3d Ave in San Francisco near Golden Gate Park, and what do I see in the street? An entire rudder from an Eipper MX. It was in great shape. I advertised my find all over the ultralight community and nobody claimed it or knew of an Eipper MX missing a rudder. Go figure. Reminds me of that movie Donnie Darko.

There has been some buzz on another forum about an entire old skydiving rig found very intact in a Swedish forest. Whose was it? How did it get there?

377

yeah, weird.
at that site above (they're a lot of stories from OR/WA by the way) this guy found a prop:

"a couple of years ago elk hunting in the chesnimnus unit I came across a prop to an airplane, I looked all around for the rest of the plane but didnt find anything, I would have packed it out but I was over 10 miles in and didn`t have the gumption to get er done, and yes I did tell the trooper on his dailey drive thru camp. I never did hear if anything ever came of it."

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

I keep going back to Scott telling H he thought
after reflecting, he was EAST of V23... that brings
us to the area Jerry is searching. I think!???

Duhh - What's New? It also puts the plane where Duane took me - Up the Washougal to a trailer park where he used to know someone who live there and turn around and cut across Coffey road. This is after he took me to the place where the Cabins used to be at Lake LaCames and everything that was across the lake and the power lines and the pipelines and Camp Bonneville and a tower that used to be there and 2 air strips. The point where Duane said "That's where Cooper walked out of the Woods".

Ah so this forum comes full circle and we are right back where we started, but with a lot more knowledge and a lot of crap we had to wade through.

So we have the Place Card off the Aft stairs in one place, other estimates that put the plane over Orchard and Brush Prairie area and Jerry who put him at the Washougal .

Then we have me saying he landed near the tracks and that he walked the pipelines and power lines to reach LaCames and walked out of the woods at a creek near there. Crossed the lake went over the hill to a logging feeding station and then to the marina where he take a boat on a ride right back at them. Holds up in a cabin near the Airport, but on the Vancouver side and awaits his chance to get out...or for his accomplice to pick him up. He uses the Bomb battery to operate his communication device.

All over the Map - from Tena's bar and the Columbia to the Washougal - I am exhausted, but here we go again. Think I will just sit back and relax - and do what I should have been doing for the past few yrs. Enjoy Life.


Since this is going right back where I started on May 24 1996...I don't have the heart to repeat it or relive it again....going to let you guys play this one out yourselves.
Georger if you taunt me in to responding - and I will haunt you...forever. You bring me on yourself because you just can't stand not to get the last word in.

MK Ultra and JMWave - Covert actions or one man on his own - we may never know the answer,
Altered military records - and hidden prison records - lost evidence (butts) - Hotel interviews lost - card with handwriting lost - FBI interviews lost (one a prisoner at Jefferson who claimed to know who Cooper was) - false public statements by the FBI - deliverate lies to families involved by the FBI - Inability of the FBI to perform simple searches and interviews - refusal to do the simplest of interviews - this list is just too long.

Remember George - be nice. Now have some fun, because I intend to do something beside spend hours and hours day after day trying to get the truth told because no one wants the truth - the legend suits most just fine.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

I didn't realize Government Island is off limits to the public
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.575,-122.508&spn=0.1,0.1&t=m&q=45.575,-122.508

from wikipedia:
"Government Island is a 1,760-acre (7 km2) island in the Columbia River north of Portland, Oregon in Multnomah County. Though Interstate 205 passes over it on the Glenn L. Jackson Memorial Bridge, access to the island is only by boat. (Although there is a city controlled locked gate in the 205 fence) Government Island is known for its great blue heron colony [1] and the Government Island State Recreation Area[2] (primitive camping, beaches). The interior of the island, off limits to the public, contains a seasonal cattle ranch and protected natural areas, including Jewit Lake. There are also remnants of old pioneer buildings on the island. Camping is permitted below the vegetation line around the perimeter, and picnic tables and restrooms can be found in these areas as well. Many threatened or endangered wildlife species live on the island, including red-legged frog, bald eagle, peregrine falcon, pileated woodpecker, little willow flycatcher, olive-sided flycatcher, western meadowlark, horned grebe, red-necked grebe, bufflehead, purple martin, and possibly the endangered Columbian white-tailed deer.

..

The island (except for 224 acres (0.9 km2) on the east side owned by Metro) is owned by the Port of Portland. The Port acquired the entire island (as well as adjacent Lemon Island and McGuire Island) in 1969 in order to expand nearby Portland International Airport. Though those plans have been abandoned, it continues to control the land to prevent any uses incompatible with its location under the airport's primary flight path. In 1999 the Port sold a small parcel of the island to Metro, and leased the remainder to the Oregon Parks and Recreation Department for 99 years."

I looked at this cause of one story on that site about finding a marijuana grow there:

"When I was an early teens, my dad, best friend, his dad and I went camping on the north side of Government Island on the Columbia River. We were camped on the furthest north spot where the sand began. One day, we hiked into the middle of the island and found some open areas where cows were grazing. Upon further inspection we found a cabin. The area seemed pretty desolate of human activity other than the "greenhouse" that was the cabin. I was too young to know but as I got older my dad had told me it was full of marijuana. Fond memories..."


Government island is where I-205 crosses the Columbia. Just East of I-5. I-205 (bridge) wasn't there in 1971.

We've discussed Government Island before. I didn't realize it's still off limits in areas though. (sanctuary)

[snowmman 3]

was a post way back when Ckret kind of implied that georger and crew were some kind of team he could work with, unlike me.

But as far as I can tell, everyone's a freaking whack job now.

Sluggo is the closet whack job. He likes to hide his convoluted theories and say he's just about facts.

Georger is odd in his own way.

Tom Kaye has apparently gone off in the weeds.

Jo, well Jo is Jo.

Me, I go all over the place.

Heck I was getting worried about even Orange1 losing it, but she seems to have kept her hand on the tiller/stick.

377 seems to be steady as always.

Ckret committed suicide.

Shelly and Jerry. Sure it's polite to reserve judgement, and it's nice to meet new folks (I lived in Beavorton for a short time...I've been on Mt. Hood a couple times) but really, regardless of where you guys live or who you talk to, so far there's no new info...my suspicions are you only have bad data.

I love it.

(edit) Hmm. Now that I think of it, maybe they filmed some of "The Shining" at Timberline for a reason!

[1969912 0]

Quote

***

This was his most recent (I think) reply to you:


"good replies - thanks."

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

This is just a tidbit that I hadn't noticed before.

Calvin "Rawhide" Papritz was a smokejumper. He graduated from training at MSO (Missoula) in 1958. This is confirmed from the Smokejumpers book here:
http://www.google.com/books?id=A6cEZ2Ay0P4C&pg=PA53&dq=calvin+papritz

Beverly Buckner, and I guess others, did a series of oral interviews of smokejumpers circa 1984. This was for Univ. of Montana, in Missoula. I believe.

A 10 minute tape, and transcript exists of the following interview described here with Papritz: (1984)

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/42574808?tab=details#tabs

"Summary/Abstract
Mr. Papritz tells of being asked by ABC News to recreate D.B. Cooper's jump from the back of a Boeing 727. He also suggests a possible identity for Cooper."


I'll leave you guessing as to whether I have the tape :)

(edit) apparently only 1 in a library worldwide? per:
http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/oclc/42574808?page=frame&url=%2fidentities%2ffind%3furl_ver%3dZ39.88-2004%26rft_val_fmt%3dinfo%3aofi%2ffmt%3akev%3amtx%3aidentity%26rft.namelast%3dPapritz%26rft.namefirst%3dCalvin.%26rft.nameinit%3dC%26rft.nameinit1%3dC%26rft.nameinitm%3d%26rft.namesuffix%3d%26rft.nametitle%3d%26rft.date%3d%26rft.name%3d%26rft.birthdate%3d%26rft.deathdate%3d%26rft.arn%3d%26rft.title%3d%255BInterview%2bwith%2bformer%2bsmokejumper%2bCalvin%2b%2522Rawhide%2522%2bPapritz%2bon%2bre-enacting%2bD.B.%2bCooper%2527s%2bparachute%2bjump%2bfrom%2ba%2b727%255D%26rft_id%3dinfo%3aoclcnum%2f42574808&title=&linktype=identitiesLink


(edit) I also saw a note that says in the book "The Real McCoy there's a copy of a Norjak memo, that says that the Cooper note was handwritten. Supposedly it's in an odd place in the book. Anyone have a copy of the book to confirm this? There have been some accounts of the note being handwritten, printed, felt pen, which I always thought was rumor, But if a Norjak memo said handwritten, that would be interesting.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Or Jerry is right about the LZ and it's in the middle of some very inhospitable terrain.

If that's the case it adds to the probability of Cooper not in fact making it out alive? Even if he landed OK he may not have been able to work his way out?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

I don’t have any of my books here (in NM), but if you don’t get an answer by next week, I’ll look while I’m at home.

Here’s what I recall (from all the books I’ve read, I’m not sure which one or ones):

He handed to note to Flo.
She put it in her pocket.
He told her to look at it because he had a bomb.
She looked, went into the galley and showed it to Tina and Alice.
Flo took the note back to Cooper (he had asked for it back (at sometime in all this).
Tina informed the cockpit (without the note).
The description of the note by all who saw it was: neatly hand-written in a uniform block style.

When I saw this description of the note, I thought of my drafting classes in the sixties, and wondered if Cooper was a draftsman or engineer. I would love to show the witnesses some draftsman’s text (from the sixties) and see if that’s what they saw.


Sluggo_Monster (late for work)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Orange1 0]

Quote

There is a lot of field mice out in the woods and they will use any material objects they find to make there nest for this reason and detoration factors he doesn't believe there will be any money found.

That sounds like a good point. Except some of the money must have remained intact for a long time to be found eventually. Would the theory be that the money that was found came apart from the rest during the jump?

Snow - I am agnostic about whether Jerry has wasted years like Jo has. What I am excited about, is the fact of another viewpoint, another theory from someone who has been involved in the case for a long time. And without a load of CIA FBI MLK JFK cover-up conspiracy crap either, because (it sounds to me) this is someone who just wants to know who Cooper was without having an agenda to prove it was someone specific.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

Remember Steve Fosset? HUGE search, massive effort, planes, satellites, ground parties, nothing found. They were all looking in the wrong place. Wonder if the Cooper case may have some similarities? The Cooper flight tracking data looks pretty good to me though. I wouldn't expect any huge differences between where Cooper really jumped and where we think he jumped.

Why does Jerry only expect pieces of bone to be found? If Cooper went in as a no pull, his bones wouldn't have all shattered into pieces? Would scavenging animals break his bones apart?

Got up at 1 AM to try to put my telescope on the green comet (comet Lulin), but was thwarted by a 90% overcast and saw nothing.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/04feb_greencomet.htm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

***

This was his most recent (I think) reply to you:


"good replies - thanks."

Those replies are Jo's (not mine) .... Einstein.
Me Georger. She Jo. You = with a comb up your ass.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

I keep going back to Scott telling H he thought
after reflecting, he was EAST of V23... that brings
us to the area Jerry is searching. I think!???

Duhh - What's New? It also puts the plane where Duane took me - Up the Washougal to a trailer park where he used to know someone who live there and turn around and cut across Coffey road. This is after he took me to the place where the Cabins used to be at Lake LaCames and everything that was across the lake and the power lines and the pipelines and Camp Bonneville and a tower that used to be there and 2 air strips. The point where Duane said "That's where Cooper walked out of the Woods".

Ah so this forum comes full circle and we are right back where we started, but with a lot more knowledge and a lot of crap we had to wade through.

So we have the Place Card off the Aft stairs in one place, other estimates that put the plane over Orchard and Brush Prairie area and Jerry who put him at the Washougal .

Then we have me saying he landed near the tracks and that he walked the pipelines and power lines to reach LaCames and walked out of the woods at a creek near there. Crossed the lake went over the hill to a logging feeding station and then to the marina where he take a boat on a ride right back at them. Holds up in a cabin near the Airport, but on the Vancouver side and awaits his chance to get out...or for his accomplice to pick him up. He uses the Bomb battery to operate his communication device.

All over the Map - from Tena's bar and the Columbia to the Washougal - I am exhausted, but here we go again. Think I will just sit back and relax - and do what I should have been doing for the past few yrs. Enjoy Life.


Since this is going right back where I started on May 24 1996...I don't have the heart to repeat it or relive it again....going to let you guys play this one out yourselves.
Georger if you taunt me in to responding - and I will haunt you...forever. You bring me on yourself because you just can't stand not to get the last word in.

MK Ultra and JMWave - Covert actions or one man on his own - we may never know the answer,
Altered military records - and hidden prison records - lost evidence (butts) - Hotel interviews lost - card with handwriting lost - FBI interviews lost (one a prisoner at Jefferson who claimed to know who Cooper was) - false public statements by the FBI - deliverate lies to families involved by the FBI - Inability of the FBI to perform simple searches and interviews - refusal to do the simplest of interviews - this list is just too long.

Remember George - be nice. Now have some fun, because I intend to do something beside spend hours and hours day after day trying to get the truth told because no one wants the truth - the legend suits most just fine.

The legend?

Bufambu.

[snowmman 3]

Thanks Sluggo.

Sluggo Said: (can't you picture a chirpy game show announcer saying "Sluggo Said") :)

Quote

The description of the note by all who saw it was: neatly hand-written in a uniform block style.

Yeah, that's the description I was wondering where it came from. Ckret was careful to never confirm it, as far as I remember.

If the McCoy book (by the FBI agents) actually has a copy of the Norjak memo that mentions it, it would be interesting. I just ordered a copy of the book last night. It was hard to find a cheap copy, because it's out of print? So I'll know in a week or so. I'll scan it if so.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Or Jerry is right about the LZ and it's in the middle of some very inhospitable terrain.

? I don't understand what you're saying Orange1.
Have you looked at the roads around the Washougal River, say around Dougan Falls. I don't know if they were there in 1971, but you should look. It will surprise you.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dougan+falls,+wa&sll=45.639127,-122.273369&sspn=0.036006,0.069265&ie=UTF8&ll=45.671644,-122.155867&spn=0.035986,0.069265&z=14

Remember, if Jerry Thomas can get in to a spot, then most anyone can get out of that spot.

This notion that Jerry Thomas has extra powers compared to the average man, doesn't seem true. If so, maybe we need more description? Can he walk 20 miles in a line in that area, without hitting a road, and not needing a compass? Not.

(edit) In that google map, I suspect a lot are dirt roads? but the point is the same.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Fosset.
no radar. It was reasonable based on what they knew that they'd look in the wrong place. They were guessing.

Cooper.
Radar.
Looking in the wrong place because the data is ignored and wrongly interpreted.

Example:
Was Government Island thoroughly searched? It is a little off, but a lot more on, than any other search area, based on the data. (looking for remote places..i.e. little human traffic, that link both the flight path and a money to Tena Bar story)

I don't think it's worth searching Govt. Island now. But I think it's REALLY funny that somehow people want to believe that the data says it makes sense to search the woods, as opposed to shoreline.

(edit) in case no one recognizes my new avatar :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0g1WUTuIQ8
Line them up, Lloyd! Everyone's here.

[377 21]

Given the high probability that Cooper stashed or abandoned some gear near his landing site, wouldnt it still make sense to search Govt Island? The larger cadmium? plated steel hardware on a surplus harness/container will last for centuries I'd bet. Things like stainless steel ripcords will last even longer.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Or Jerry is right about the LZ and it's in the middle of some very inhospitable terrain.

? I don't understand what you're saying Orange1.
Have you looked at the roads around the Washougal River, say around Dougan Falls. I don't know if they were there in 1971, but you should look. It will surprise you.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dougan+falls,+wa&sll=45.639127,-122.273369&sspn=0.036006,0.069265&ie=UTF8&ll=45.671644,-122.155867&spn=0.035986,0.069265&z=14

Remember, if Jerry Thomas can get in to a spot, then most anyone can get out of that spot.

This notion that Jerry Thomas has extra powers compared to the average man, doesn't seem true. If so, maybe we need more description? Can he walk 20 miles in a line in that area, without hitting a road, and not needing a compass? Not.

(edit) In that google map, I suspect a lot are dirt roads? but the point is the same.

I was quoting someone else there.
And getting into an area in daylight with maps etc may not be the same as getting out of it in the dark and bad weather. Remember that BASE jumper that died of hypothermia a while ago - the details were posted here - the exit out the valley should have been easy, but he got disorientated in the dark. I'm not claiming Jerry has special powers. But there are new angles being thrown up and I don't see why we shouldn't discuss them. They make a lot more sense than trying to track down someone who knows someone who hid the rifle that shot MLK.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

• Quote

[1969912 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

***

This was his most recent (I think) reply to you:


"good replies - thanks."

Those replies are Jo's (not mine) .... Einstein.
Me Georger. She Jo. You = with a comb up your ass.

Yes, they were her replies, and you said "good replies - thanks." Presumably to her.

I posted that reply to her to show that you weren't being a wanker in your last reply to her, and that perhaps she should cool it.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[georger 197]

I just looked at it, and was surprised to see that Cooper referenced Phoenix in the debate. After playing with the flight path software a lot, saying Phoenix is a little bit sophisticated in terms of knowledge. Maybe it just shows knowledge of cities in the Southwest etc.

Hell, if he knows about Phoenix, why the hell are we all excited that he knows about Tacoma?

Reply: Because the reference to Tacoma is a direct
reference from the plane with distance and a timesacale attached on Cooper's part, coming into SEA - while the reference to Phoenix is more abstract.

Its like the difference between your being correct
about the assignment of Reno in the Transcript and
then passing judgement on Jerry Thomas' life asnd
compariong him to Jo Weber. The one does not
logically connect or prove the other, and I am very
sure about that, unlike my slipup on Reno (on the
spur of the moment in the middle of chaos here).

I dont see anyone getting "excited" about Tacoma
in any event, just taking note of what Cooper said.
But the context is different. Phoenix/Mexico vs.
Tacoma. The plane wasnt coming in to land over Phoenix.

On the other hand we have Ckret's view: that Cooper
didnt know where he was and didn't really care. That
point of view would tend to fit with your statement:

"Hell, if he knows about Phoenix, why the hell are we all excited that he knows about Tacoma?"

And this fits with your view then you have a conumdrum, because you instinctively dont agree
with or believe ANYTHING Ckret says.

Has it crossed your mind that Jerry's current search
is just one of many searches in different areas he has considered, and the flight path isnt necessarily
his single sole reason for searching an area. He
may be searching areas where he thinks Cooper
(or the money) might have gone or wound up,
after landing elsewhere. Unlike you, I dont see
that Jerry or his actions are one-dimensional and
on a par with Jo's activities over 13+ years.

Getting straight to the heart of this, I dont even think you do equate Jo and Jerry. I think what
you are really saying here is to be able to talk to Jerry personally and Sluggo can probably arrange that. (Your tantrum of brilliance was not required
to accomplish that). That's my guess.

Maybe Cooper was from Phoenix and knew Phoenix
like the back of his hand, but only mentioned Phoenix in passing. How can we know? It isnt like
Cooper left a resume with the FBI before boarding
flight #305.

He mentioned Phoenix once in passing. He gives
a whole explanation for Tacoma, by comparison.
Maybe the larger fact that matters is that he
hijacked at Portland going to Seattle, and he did
not hijack at Phoenix or in CA going to Mexico?

*Jo Weber would have us believe the whole thing
was centered in Washington because Duane knew
Washington. The real Dan Cooper may not have
known Washington at all.

Why dont you make arrangements to talk to
Jerry Thomas and come out of your cave, and
stop speculating? To me it would seem like the
sane thing to do?