DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Orange1: re the Montagnards.
I think we're getting off track, but you're right there's some amazing first hand stuff on the web nowadays, text and photos, from the times back then...i.e. I think there's more info out now than ever, regardless of books written?

My reading of the insertion teams in Laos, was that the Nungs were the guys you wanted on your team. (Chinese hill tribes). Insertion teams had one to three US, rest were locals? MACV SOG 1-0, 1-1, 1-2 were the way team leaders were referenced?

There are a lot of good historical photos on the web, showing the mixed teams. There are some good stuff in Google Books now too.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52378

Here's a good history of Project Delta by way of example.
http://www.projectdelta.net/delta_history.htm
There was a picture of a jumper during insertion training, wearing a smokejumper's suit/helmet/facescreen like I said before, on that page. They also mention night jumps.
I've attached the picture also. (small guy! not US)

from the page:
"The Drop Zone for Day Training Jump. All those trees look cushiony, but appearances can be deceiving. They were 90-100 feet tall. One VN was killed rappeling down from the trees."

[Orange1 0]

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What's weird is that Carr also dismissed (11/25/07) because of the paratrooper experience?

"Carr has one other reason for discounting Christiansen: his training as a paratrooper. An experienced skydiver wouldn't attempt a jump in the weather conditions that night, which included freezing rain, poor visibility and winds about 15 mph."

Yup, and that is one of Ckret's convictions that never made sense to me. Who better to survive that kind of jump than the kind of person who may have plenty experience with it - i.e. a paratrooper.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

We are not just talking schematics - we are talking exposure - a brother who was a consultant for Boeing overseas and I have NO idea what was in the things Duane saw - but they were accessible to Duane because he had access to the brothers home...when the brother was NOT there.

As I have said before - the FBI did not visit that brother and if they did he didn't tell me - obviously if this interview DID happen the agents didn't ask the right questions. Just as they didn't have a clue what to ask the ex-wife.

The brother would have been the only one able to tell us how much information Duane has access to.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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What's weird is that Carr also dismissed (11/25/07) because of the paratrooper experience?

"Carr has one other reason for discounting Christiansen: his training as a paratrooper. An experienced skydiver wouldn't attempt a jump in the weather conditions that night, which included freezing rain, poor visibility and winds about 15 mph."

Yup, and that is one of Ckret's convictions that never made sense to me. Who better to survive that kind of jump than the kind of person who may have plenty experience with it - i.e. a paratrooper.

yup.
As a historical footnote, here's another pic from that macv-sog page. Gives you a reference point for what nucking futs is. Bad enough with one or two guys on the ladder. Check this pic. Extraction I guess?

[Orange1 0]

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"In 1971, no civilian knew that a 727 could be flown with the aft stairway extended. But 727's had been used in Vietnam for years to drop agents behind enemy lines. Only the C.I.A. knew this"

You forget - Boeing emploees who designed and made the planes along with the schematics - don't forget that Duane Weber had this information available to him when that plane and others were nothing more than a design on paper.

Sorry Jo, I think we missed this link. Can you be more specific about the fact that Duane had this precise info? The last I heard you say on this was that he had a brother who worked for Boeing who...possibly may have had access to the plans and....possibly may have taken them home and...possibly may have left them lying around the house (sounds just like the kind of guy the CIA would want on their top secret project!) and that these plans....possibly may have been for this and that Duane ...possibly may have seen them. Now you are once again convinced of something that is built on maybe after maybe after maybe...oh, and one of those maybes is completely wrong, by the way:

Not that this will make the slightest bit of difference in your conviction but what you said above does not fit the facts. You say: "when that plane and others were nothing more than a design on paper". The 727 was already built and flying when the CIA asked Boeing to do work on the ventral exit for airdrops - that is clear from the Church report. You are trying to imply that these plans that Duane's brother may have had access to that he may have taken home where he may have left them lying around where Duane may have seen them...all happened when this was still in the drawing board stages for the plane itself. Couldn't have happened.

I read "the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" many years ago (long before the Da Vinci Code came out). Their theory reminds me of Jo's. Take an assumption, the fact that it is very dodgy indeed gets glossed over, then you build a series of "may have happened"s on top of that, each "maybe" suddenly gets converted to fact and ..voila, Jesus married Mary Magdalene and fathered a line of kings in France. The Duane Weber theory reminds me a lot of that.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

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There were official church programs which required a coat jacket with emblem or insignia.
One of those (in a shared office space in that bldg) were the Mormon Pioneers - but I wont take the time to find the patch on the net. You can do that if it suits you. The use of chevrons along with that
patch denoted level or grade of the wearer. That's just one example of the insignias that were on coats walking around in that building. Some were more conspicuous than others. Some officials wore no insignia at all. Satisfied?

SO, Why did it take so long for you to state that - it is not the same as I have been told, but sounds logical. Bears checking out.
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But you and Duane took trips, investigated people and things publically, Duane operating an antiques business publically ....

So which is it? Under cover or public? Or both?
Im sure you will have an explanation which accommodates both stories.

Duane did not do the Shop until he went out out on disability in 1989. He sold Inusrance from the time I met him in 1977 until 1988.

He was selling insurance as John Collins and after he got out of Jefferson Pen in 1969 as Duane Weber - still don't understand how he ever got the license...state law has always been - ex-cons cannot be licensed.

He wasn't INVESTIGATIING anyone and I will state again - I did not ask or pry into his past. If I did ask a question he gave an answer and quickly made a diversion to another subject - very astute at doing this.

You have described Duane before as being very
astute, whatever "astute is in your book. More
Weber Effect. I tend to think you keep saying this
to make Duane and yourself look astute, whether
Duane was or not. So the obvious question is: was
Duane too astute to be DB Cooper, if Duane was
as astute as you say?

Why would a guy that has successfully ripped off
$200k in some grudge, go sell insurance? He is
insurance, from what you say! So astute that
he can survive and prosper on a rock.

Aside from the obvious physical missmatch, I think
you have made Duane too astute to be DB Cooper.

You seem to be tailoring your story to Sluggo's
interpretation of DB Cooper - that Cooper was
an engineer and student of Chuck Yeager, or something like that. No doubt Duane had a
photographic memory, and perfect pitch?
Dyslexia?

Darn Toot'n!


Georger

[Orange1 0]

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A composite cannot be used for the purpose of comparing a photo of any given witness.

So then Georger is correct that the Vegas identification stuff is all rubbish?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:

"I am NOT an FBI agent.
I am NOT a CIA agent.
Never have been and never will be."

Yeah, and you never oogle the stewardesses either. :)

I assumed you were clean till you made the denials.

Now if you retract the denials, and say you were just kidding when you denied it, then I'll know you're telling the truth and you're not FBI.

You know how you talked about vindication coming from others? Well, I think the reality is you're only not FBI when Jo says you're not FBI.

"If I say it's safe to surf this beach, Captain, then it's safe to surf this beach!" -skyjack71, 2008

(edit) Joke! Funny! Ha-Ha! remember laughter?

[Orange1 0]

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yup.
As a historical footnote, here's another pic from that macv-sog page. Gives you a reference point for what nucking futs is. Bad enough with one or two guys on the ladder. Check this pic. Extraction I guess?

Actually, I saw this (in an exercise) not very long ago - went to a local airshow where our airforce did a display of a combat mission, from dropping the pathfinders, to dropping other weapons, people, support etc to extracting people at the end of it (as you showed there). Was fascinating to see, as well as all the different types of aircraft (planes and helis) involved. The past couple of years btw our air force has made a C-130 available for jumping at our big end of year boogie here; i missed it last year and i have missed it this year, but i WILL jump that thing at some stage

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

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A composite cannot be used for the purpose of comparing a photo of any given witness.

Can someone tranlate Jo's above into English?

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[georger 197]

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georger said:

"I am NOT an FBI agent.
I am NOT a CIA agent.
Never have been and never will be."

Yeah, and you never oogle the stewardesses either. :)

I assumed you were clean till you made the denials.

Now if you retract the denials, and say you were just kidding when you denied it, then I'll know you're telling the truth and you're not FBI.

You know how you talked about vindication coming from others? Well, I think the reality is you're only not FBI when Jo says you're not FBI.

"If I say it's safe to surf this beach, Captain, then it's safe to surf this beach!" -skyjack71, 2008[/reply

and I love the smell of napalm in the morning - It
smells like - - - victory.

]

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[377 21]

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state law has always been - ex-cons cannot be licensed.

Jo,

Felons do all sorts of things prohibited by law including possessing firearms. Is it any surprise that a felon would figure out how to skirt the law? Some state licensing boards do thorough background checks, others obviously do not. Many rely on self reporting in the license application.

In some states, in the past, you could bribe officials to turn a blind eye towards something that might disqualify you.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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and I love the smell of napalm in the morning - It smells like - - - victory.

And Apocalypse Now is based on Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad (hello Snow

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

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Sure wish we knew whether Cooper did or did not inspect the packing cards. If he did, the likelihood of him being a skydiver increases.

377

The only time that was mentioned was in Tosaws Book - He did do a little fictionalization. I asked Himmelsbach about that fact several yrs ago.

Tosaw also revisited the witness and perhaps they added this at that time or maybe it was something "extra" added as most writer do take literary license to fill in the voids.

I never found it in any witness account. For some reason this caught my eye yrs ago - before I had a computer in 2000. A time when I had to rely on the library and any written accounting I could locate and some from friends who had computers and what I was able to do at the office after everyone left.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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and I love the smell of napalm in the morning - It smells like - - - victory.

And Apocalypse Now is based on Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad (hello Snow

That friend of yours needs to teach a focused "All Conrad, All the Time" course, that shows how Conrad has influenced the 20th century.

Hey 377: have you noticed that we occasionally hit the meter with a higher-than-typical-percentage of women on this thread? It's the lit. I counted 4 women here one day. Jumpers eat your heart out. And go read some Conrad.

[snowmman 3]

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I never found it in any witness account.

Hi Jo:
what witness accounts did you have access to? Anything that's not been presented already?

[georger 197]

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and I love the smell of napalm in the morning - It smells like - - - victory.

And Apocalypse Now is based on Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad (hello Snow

more Weber Effect

[snowmman 3]

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and I love the smell of napalm in the morning - It smells like - - - victory.

And Apocalypse Now is based on Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad (hello Snow

more Weber Effect

Jo was right about one thing: Duane always told her something was named after him. He just saw the future, not the past.

[skyjack71 0]

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I never found it in any witness account.

Hi Jo:
what witness accounts did you have access to? Anything that's not been presented already?

I am just talking about the magazine articles and news reports over the yrs and Himmelsbachs book and my conversations with him and others.
I do not have the computer capabilities you guys have.

You know darn well what I meant .

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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I never found it in any witness account.

Hi Jo:
what witness accounts did you have access to? Anything that's not been presented already?

I am just talking about the magazine articles and news reports over the yrs and Himmelsbachs book and my conversations with him and others.
I do not have the computer capabilities you guys have.

You know darn well what I meant .

No I didn't Jo, that's why I asked.
There are very few accounts that have detail that's confirmable as from witnesses.

By example, we're denying reports that are apparently accounts by Rataczak? (like the 15 degree stuff?)

I think we're saying the only reliable witness accounts are those the FBI has? and all we know about them is what Ckret tells us.

We really don't have any good witness accounts. That's why I asked.

[Orange1 0]

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Sure wish we knew whether Cooper did or did not inspect the packing cards. If he did, the likelihood of him being a skydiver increases.

377

The only time that was mentioned was in Tosaws Book -

That's not true, it was mentioned in the newspaper report to whcih Snow posted the link the other day (the same one that talks about the CIA planes). I need to check, but IIRC the newspaper article said they were told that bit by Himmelsbach

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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and I love the smell of napalm in the morning - It smells like - - - victory.

And Apocalypse Now is based on Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad (hello Snow

more Weber Effect

Exactly!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

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Hey 377: have you noticed that we occasionally hit the meter with a higher-than-typical-percentage of women on this thread? It's the lit. I counted 4 women here one day. Jumpers eat your heart out. And go read some Conrad.

Snow, are we the lucky ones or what? The most popular forum and the best women... right here. After the BASE jumpers killed the appeal of ordinary skydiving I have had to rely increasingly on literary means to impress women. Smart women are always the best, and they are always interested in a clever quote and commentary about Conrad, Faulkner or Heller. I let Oprah handle Joan Dideon and Truman Capote.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[TomKaye 1]

All,

Since its not looking like Peregrine is coming back any time soon I am going to make my final statement on Duane.

For months I have been on the fence about Duane. Small details seemed to be pointing in the right direction while others were completely off base. To me this meant there could be grains of truth mixed in with assorted other junk or it was all a shotgun effect where something is bound to hit the mark.

The eyeglass details for me has closed the door on the Duane Weber saga. My information tells me he was near-sighted. Not a little, but a LOT near-sighted. This seems to be consistent from the younger to older pictures. This would still allow him to do things like shoot a gun because its actually more accurate to focus on the sights than the target (if you can still see the fuzzy target).

To my way of thinking, hijacking that airplane was probably the riskiest moment in Coopers life. It would take a lot to convince me that a guy is going to do that while making the choice to go in basically blind without glasses. He was able to identify Tacoma which I doubt Duane Weber could have done from an airplane without glasses.

So Jo while I respect your efforts to find evidence that Duane was Cooper, in my mind a near-sighted guy does not hijack a plane blind. I can now personally discount Duane entirely but of course, I could be wrong, and invite you all to come up with evidence to the contrary.

Tom

[georger 197]

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Hey 377: have you noticed that we occasionally hit the meter with a higher-than-typical-percentage of women on this thread? It's the lit. I counted 4 women here one day. Jumpers eat your heart out. And go read some Conrad.

Snow, are we the lucky ones or what? The most popular forum and the best women... right here. After the BASE jumpers killed the appeal of ordinary skydiving I have had to rely increasingly on literary means to impress women. Smart women are always the best, and they are always interested in a clever quote and commentary about Conrad, Faulkner or Heller. I let Oprah handle Joan Dideon and Truman Capote.

377

you have women on the brain! 377 Effect.