georger 197
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Robert99 37
QuoteFrom 10,000 feet, Cooper could not see the ground or any horizontal reference points and he would not have any directional reference points unless he could spot the North Star, or some such thing, as he was tumbling.
The human brain must process the clues concerning the above reference points in order to provide inputs to Cooper's hands, feet, and anything else he had to use in stabilizing himself. No clues to the brain means no meaningful inputs to the hands and feet.
Velly interestink, Dr. 99. I had no idea you were a
practicing pediatric neurologist, too.
Dr. Fu-Man Spock sayeth:
Basic Response #2: sensation of falling; Baby cries
and extends legs, arms, and fingers, arches back,
then retracts arms and legs; Duration: Until fall is
broken by impact or upward resistence. The falling
response requires no external references in order to
activate.
Without the "all-over support" of the ambiotic fluid
in the womb, the baby frequently experiences
a "falling" sensation and startles awake. This reflex
is autonomic, controled mainly by the The medulla
oblongata portion of the old brain which controls
autonomic functions such as breathing, digestion,
heart rate, and basic suvival functions. An array of
sensors in the inner ear and along the lower back
feed the medulla in this basic function.
During gestation, the mother's movements and hormone levels supply the fetus' developing neurology the basic neurologcal parameters needed to establish the critical support-falling baseline.
Professor Georger, Thank you for your remarks. Of course, I was not addressing autonomic functions in the post and my referring to "meaningful inputs to the hands and feet" was strictly limited to those inputs that would assist Cooper in maintaining or regaining control using the geostrophic forces available to him.
Confucius (K'ung-tzu} say:
"When cold put on coat and sandals".
This usually works down to an IQ level of 80!
If we assume Cooper had an IQ of at least 80
then .... you fill in the blank.
Quote
Cooper (coup-er} say:
Wrap up all snuggy in parachute and walk to the light.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
georger 197
QuoteQuoteFrom 10,000 feet, Cooper could not see the ground or any horizontal reference points and he would not have any directional reference points unless he could spot the North Star, or some such thing, as he was tumbling.
The human brain must process the clues concerning the above reference points in order to provide inputs to Cooper's hands, feet, and anything else he had to use in stabilizing himself. No clues to the brain means no meaningful inputs to the hands and feet.
Velly interestink, Dr. 99. I had no idea you were a
practicing pediatric neurologist, too.
Dr. Fu-Man Spock sayeth:
Basic Response #2: sensation of falling; Baby cries
and extends legs, arms, and fingers, arches back,
then retracts arms and legs; Duration: Until fall is
broken by impact or upward resistence. The falling
response requires no external references in order to
activate.
Without the "all-over support" of the ambiotic fluid
in the womb, the baby frequently experiences
a "falling" sensation and startles awake. This reflex
is autonomic, controled mainly by the The medulla
oblongata portion of the old brain which controls
autonomic functions such as breathing, digestion,
heart rate, and basic suvival functions. An array of
sensors in the inner ear and along the lower back
feed the medulla in this basic function.
During gestation, the mother's movements and hormone levels supply the fetus' developing neurology the basic neurologcal parameters needed to establish the critical support-falling baseline.
Professor Georger, Thank you for your remarks. Of course, I was not addressing autonomic functions in the post and my referring to "meaningful inputs to the hands and feet" was strictly limited to those inputs that would assist Cooper in maintaining or regaining control using the geostrophic forces available to him.
The point is, falling is its own sensation (triggers
autonomic responses), even in adults - requires no
external references - gravity is enough - unless
trained to ignore and/or control, over-ride those
natural responses.
The autonomic functions are so thorough they will
even induce a heart attack (fibrillation) in adults
falling from great heights, so often it isnt the fallthat
kills you but the lose of blood pressure on the way
down, and you arrive at the bottom unconscious
unless you took counter measures. I am "sure"
Amazon is an expert on this subject!
Cooper would have instinctively taken counter
measures when he jumped, measures which
probably help in stabilisation?
But as 377 points out, pulling at the ramp (off the
ramp) almost assures stabilisation right from the
start and no freefalling. Aside from training, the
basic issue is how smart and well thought out
Cooper's actions were - he knew he would FALL,
unless he was IQ<60.
Very likely he clutched the bag or had it tied down
to himself as best as possible, so no wildly 'swinging
bag' scenario is guaranteed. Tina saw him tying the
bag to himself. Even if there was a freefall wth a
slightly unsecured bag he is going to reach Terminal
pretty quickly, and that alone affords him new
opportunities for stabilising himself vs his
initial motions off the platform.
So my assumption is: basic autonomic respones +
bag tied down not free to affect Cooper's center of
gravity + facts of slowing and reaching Terminal;
all move the line toward 'stabilised fall' vs spin out
of control all the ay down with a no-pull. All of this
if he didnt pull off the ramp in the first place, as 377
suggests.
One thing I have noticed in this dialogue over
months is, those who think he died or want him to
have died, always without exception recite scenarios
which maximize the chances of him dying - like
uncontrolled spins etc. Uncotrolled spin from
beginning to end! I dont think the physics has ever
been there to suppport that happening. The bag is
always cited as the 'instrument of Cooper's
descruction', as an inevitable parameter.
No one of can know for sure what happened - we
werent there. But we know he took steps to secure
the bag at least around his waste. We just assume
he didnt do more and spun in as a concequence.
We also know this guy had an IQ of at least 100.
Lastly, if there is something Ive said above that is
guaranteed wrong, eh, I like to hear it and why.
Robert99 37
QuoteQuoteQuoteFrom 10,000 feet, Cooper could not see the ground or any horizontal reference points and he would not have any directional reference points unless he could spot the North Star, or some such thing, as he was tumbling.
The human brain must process the clues concerning the above reference points in order to provide inputs to Cooper's hands, feet, and anything else he had to use in stabilizing himself. No clues to the brain means no meaningful inputs to the hands and feet.
Velly interestink, Dr. 99. I had no idea you were a
practicing pediatric neurologist, too.
Dr. Fu-Man Spock sayeth:
Basic Response #2: sensation of falling; Baby cries
and extends legs, arms, and fingers, arches back,
then retracts arms and legs; Duration: Until fall is
broken by impact or upward resistence. The falling
response requires no external references in order to
activate.
Without the "all-over support" of the ambiotic fluid
in the womb, the baby frequently experiences
a "falling" sensation and startles awake. This reflex
is autonomic, controled mainly by the The medulla
oblongata portion of the old brain which controls
autonomic functions such as breathing, digestion,
heart rate, and basic suvival functions. An array of
sensors in the inner ear and along the lower back
feed the medulla in this basic function.
During gestation, the mother's movements and hormone levels supply the fetus' developing neurology the basic neurologcal parameters needed to establish the critical support-falling baseline.
Professor Georger, Thank you for your remarks. Of course, I was not addressing autonomic functions in the post and my referring to "meaningful inputs to the hands and feet" was strictly limited to those inputs that would assist Cooper in maintaining or regaining control using the geostrophic forces available to him.
The point is, falling is its own sensation (triggers
autonomic responses), even in adults - requires no
external references - gravity is enough - unless
trained to ignore and/or control, over-ride those
natural responses.
The autonomic functions are so thorough they will
even induce a heart attack (fibrillation) in adults
falling from great heights, so often it isnt the fallthat
kills you but the lose of blood pressure on the way
down, and you arrive at the bottom unconscious
unless you took counter measures. I am "sure"
Amazon is an expert on this subject!
Cooper would have instinctively taken counter
measures when he jumped, measures which
probably help in stabilisation?
But as 377 points out, pulling at the ramp (off the
ramp) almost assures stabilisation right from the
start and no freefalling. Aside from training, the
basic issue is how smart and well thought out
Cooper's actions were - he knew he would FALL,
unless he was IQ<60.
Very likely he clutched the bag or had it tied down
to himself as best as possible, so no 'swinging bag'
scenario is guaranteed. Tina saw him tying the bag
to himself. Even if there was a freefall he going to
reach Terminal pretty quickly, and that alone affords
him new opportunities for stabilising himself vs his
initial motions off the platform.
So my assumption is: basic autonomic respones +
bag tied down not free to affect Cooper's center of
gravity + facts of slowing and reaching Terminal;
all move the line toward 'stabilised fall' vs spin out
of control. Now of he can only pull. All of this if he
didnt pull off the ramp in the first place, as 377
suggests.
None of can know for sure what happened - we
werent there.
Georger, The aircraft was doing about 225 MPH at the time Cooper separated from it. So he was actually ABOVE his natural terminal velocity at that time (unless Amazon had taught him some new tricks). Other things being equal, he would have slowed down to about 180 MPH or less if he was tumbling.
While any reflexive body movements would effect his speed and tumbling, only conscious and deliberate actions (controlled by the brain) would permit Cooper to attain/maintain a stable free fall position.
A possible exception to the above is if Cooper was falling with his back to the ground in a V or sitting position. This position may, or may not, have more natural aerodynamic stability than a face down position but I think it unlikely that Cooper could attain/maintain it without external visual references. And those references were not available under the conditions existing when he jumped.
ADDED IN RESPONSE TO GEORGER'S ADDITIONS TO POST 30387 (ABOVE):
If Cooper tied the 20+ pound bag to his side, it would change his center of gravity and make a drastic change to his aerodynamics as well. By itself, it would virtually insure that Cooper could not stabilize himself in a free fall.
It can be argued that Mother Nature is not intrinsically stable. But the Laws of Thermodynamics indicate that Nature is moving towards ultimate stability (and death).
georger 197
While any reflexive body movements would effect his speed and tumbling, only conscious and deliberate actions (controlled by the brain) would permit Cooper to attain/maintain a stable free fall position.
So, 'reflexive body movements would effect his speed and tumbling'
But, 'only conscious and deliberate actions
(controlled by the brain requiring external reference
points) would permit Cooper to attain/maintain a
stable free fall position.'
And, speed and tumbling are not factors
in "stability"? Cooper himself in the environment of
the plane etc are not reference points?
Huh?
Robert99 you are hung up on EXTERNAL REFERENCES
claming Cooper had NONE.
That is absurd and stupid. I have tried to
point out to you, Cooper is himself a reference
point. A biological machine walking on two legs
in airplanes on planets in gravity have internal references based on situational context; falling
for one. Gravity. Genetics! Air(stream).
I keep telling you nobody including youw as there to
see what happened or what Cooper did or did not
do. (Blevins KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED.)
But beyond any of this, Robert99 I sense you are a
stubborn man. You are going to dismiss anything
that does not come out of your own mind, so ...
adue. Blevins is more your type. Discuss it with him.
georger 197
QuoteHey, Professor. Ever considered the idea that Cooper might have just BACKED DOWN the stairs with all that load...got to the end of the stairs...and then simply pulled the ripcord?
That is 377's theory, and I think it makes sense. The backing down part is mine. Trying to go down the stairs facing forward, while they are dropping as you go down, could cause you to stumble and roll right off the end. I think he kept one hand on the rail, the other on the money load, made his way backwards down the stairs as they dropped, and just pulled the damn ripcord when he reached the end.
You and Robert999 settle it tonight. Im outta here
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteHonest! I am not your sharpest stick in the shed. There are lots on here far wiser and with more experience than me. I simply stated my opinion, and I am entitled to one. I used a poll to gather a rough idea of whether the masses thought that a hijacking had occuured at all (most thought id did on that night) I am not afraid to state that my opinion (and I believe that of 377) is that 1) he jumped 2) he got a good canopy. No more. No less. If you have an opinion or scenario that is other than this premise, now would be a GREAT time to hear it. We don't need no stinkin' poll! Just tell me that YOU don't agree with the results of the poll, or 1) or 2) above and why and I will respect you in the morning. Thank you!
I think Cooper deployed successfully. Even whuffos have done it from a skyjacked airliner. It is NOT impossible.
After that it's anyone's guess. Death certainly is a possibility.
Seems to me if he died, a body would have turned up.
Lots of publicity, lots of people looking, lots of people hoping to find and keep the loot.
Vultures are natural corpse location drones. I've been amazed at how they seem to find every large mammal carcass eventually. If I were searching long enough after the jump for decay to start working on the jumpers body, I'd be looking for vulture flocking.
377
We have even more Ravens up here and they are not adverse to pecking away at dead stuff either. They are also VERY VERY noisy when they get togehter for a feast
quade 3
In response to georger's comment . . .
You never made a jump in your life, have you? In fact, by that statement I'd wager a guess you've never seen how typical first timers react to free fall. And I can damn near guarantee you've never made a free fall jump at night.
You have NO idea what you're talking about in this regard. None.
"Measures which probably help in stabilisation? (sic)" Don't make me laugh!
INSTINCT don't enter into it. Humans have NO instinct about free fall. None. They have instinct about falling from a height of a few feet, but any way a normal human might react to that situation has ZERO relevance to falling out of an airplane. None.
Because of this, inexperienced jumpers have a tendency to curl up into the fetal position and fall unstable. Virtually everything they try to do instinctively is 100% wrong.
QuoteCooper would have instinctively taken counter
measures when he jumped, measures which
probably help in stabilisation?
You never made a jump in your life, have you? In fact, by that statement I'd wager a guess you've never seen how typical first timers react to free fall. And I can damn near guarantee you've never made a free fall jump at night.
You have NO idea what you're talking about in this regard. None.
"Measures which probably help in stabilisation? (sic)" Don't make me laugh!
INSTINCT don't enter into it. Humans have NO instinct about free fall. None. They have instinct about falling from a height of a few feet, but any way a normal human might react to that situation has ZERO relevance to falling out of an airplane. None.
Because of this, inexperienced jumpers have a tendency to curl up into the fetal position and fall unstable. Virtually everything they try to do instinctively is 100% wrong.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Robert99 37
QuoteRobert99 you are hung up on EXTERNAL REFERENCES
claming Cooper had NONE.
Well Robert99, I see airplane, a rear door open,
air movements, wind, stars in the sky, earth below,
Im about to jump out of this thing, etc etc etc etc ...
how does that add up to NO EXTERNAL REFERENCES?/reply]
I am a very devout believer in "external references" in aviation related activities. UNLESS you have gyroscopic instruments inside your head, you need some external references to determine such things as your position along all body axes, which in the case of an aircraft determines if you are climbing or descending, rolling to the left or right, or turning to the left or right.
When Cooper jumped, the airliner was no longer a factor. As pointed out elsewhere, Cooper could not see the ground and had no references to help him stabilize in a free fall position.
Amazon 7
QuoteAnybody wanna jump this?
I've got hudreds of jumps from those Dan
I have lots of oil spots on several jump suits to prove I can do front float too
Robert99 37
QuoteQuoteCooper would have instinctively taken counter
measures when he jumped, measures which
probably help in stabilisation?
You never made a jump in your life, have you? In fact, by that statement I'd wager a guess you've never seen how typical first timers react to free fall. And I can damn near guarantee you've never made a free fall jump at night.
You have NO idea what you're talking about in this regard. None.
"Measures which probably help in stabilisation? (sic)" Don't make me laugh!
Quade, Since the above quotes are from Georger, I assume that you are addressing him with your comments.
But as for me personally, as can be found in more detail on another web site devoted to the Cooper matter, I have made a limited number of parachute jumps, I have done free falls, I have never jumped at night, and I have come down on my reserve. All of these jumps were using 5-TU round chutes and were done in 1963 and 1964 on the east coast.
quade 3
QuoteQuade, Since the above quotes are from Georger, I assume that you are addressing him with your comments.
This is correct. I had caught that after posting and between then and now have gone back to correct and expand on it.
I guess I should add in another thing I've noticed about folks making assumptions about what DB Cooper could or could not have done.
To date, virtually every skydiver that has ever recreated the jump has been not just an experienced skydiver, but in some cases like the Troy Hartman recreations an honest to god EXPERT, professional stunt skydiver. Sure Troy jumped wearing a suit and a moneybag tied to him and pulled it off . . . so what? Troy is a freekin' EXPERT. That's actually the type of thing he does for a living.
Tie a bag of money to a first time jumper and toss them out of a jet with no instruction. Let's see how that goes.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
georger 197
QuoteIn response to georger's comment . . .
QuoteCooper would have instinctively taken counter
measures when he jumped, measures which
probably help in stabilisation?
You never made a jump in your life, have you? In fact, by that statement I'd wager a guess you've never seen how typical first timers react to free fall. And I can damn near guarantee you've never made a free fall jump at night.
You have NO idea what you're talking about in this regard. None.
"Measures which probably help in stabilisation? (sic)" Don't make me laugh!
INSTINCT don't enter into it. Humans have NO instinct about free fall. None. They have instinct about falling from a height of a few feet, but any way a normal human might react to that situation has ZERO relevance to falling out of an airplane. None.
Because of this, inexperienced jumpers have a tendency to curl up into the fetal position and fall unstable. Virtually everything they try to do instinctively is 100% wrong.
No need to get personal; there was a question mark
at the end of my sentence - correct? That indicates I
was guessing - correct?
Its also interesting distinquish Humans from ....
nonhumans? Are there nonHumans that parachute?
You say: "Humans have NO instinct about free fall."
NONE.
I guess your point based on experience is:
"inexperienced jumpers have a tendency to curl up
into the fetal position and fall unstable". I guess
you are saying "Humans curl up into a ball, and balls
fall (inherently) unstable, because balls are
inherently unstable"? Is this what you are saying?
Are you saying balls "roll" (unstably) in free fall
long distances?
You say: "Virtually everything they try to do
instinctively is 100% wrong.".
That is a sweeping statement.
I have no idea at all if you are correct or not. You
seem to be speaking for skydiving, physics, and
Humans!
I wonder if what you've said is true?
You also say: "They have instinct about falling from
a height of a few feet, but any way a normal human
might react to that situation has ZERO relevance to
falling out of an airplane."
So I gather from the above that the first several feet
of what people do has no bearing on free fall at all?
I find that odd because people have been saying
the exact opposite here for months, ie. the first
several feet has everything to do with how the fall is
set up (aerodynamically) for the next part of the fall,
t10.....tn. ?
Again Ive added a question mark (?) above. That
means I dont know the naswer.
quade 3
QuoteCooper would have instinctively taken counter
measures when he jumped, measures which
probably help in stabilisation?
This statement and idea behind it are so ludicrous, I thought I'd Google up a few YouTube videos of what can happen to a guy who in spite of having several jumps under his belt and been given instruction how to control his body . . . yet his crappy human "instincts" for dealing with falling out of an airplane somehow manage to fail him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl72Wf13c5w
Notice the grace and beauty inherent in the human instinct to flail.
Here's a guy that has a goofy exit, but the instructor is still attached to him. Sweet! The instructor gets him flat and stable, then let's go of him. All the student has to do is . . . nothing . . . watch how fast it goes south.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUTzX1JJczY
Sweet instincts!
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
georger 197
measures which
probably help in stabilisation?
probably help in stabilisation?
OK, You are the expert.
What was visible to Cooper when he jumped?
I mean below him to say 5000feet. Around him
in the air/sky? Above him standing on the stairs?
Please tell us.
Im assuming since youve already said there were no
reference points, there was nothing for Cooper to
see, period .... total darkness.
I mean Im asking. I really dont know. Yous eem to
know, so tell us.
Confucius (K'ung-tzu} say:
"When cold put on coat and sandals".
This usually works down to an IQ level of 80!
If we assume Cooper had an IQ of at least 80
then .... you fill in the blank.
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