DB Cooper

[pek771 0]

Maybe Cooper having trouble with the stairs and the possibility of the "B" system hydraulics being off line are related?

[Amazon 7]

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Smokin 99. You and Orange one always make valid points. Someday you guys will have to tell me what brain food you eat, lord knows I could use me some of that kind of food. Jerry

I have to answer because I have just eaten some of my all time favourite food which is indeed widely acknowledged to be brain food ---> SALMON!

Mmmmm Sammmings....MMMMMM

How I spent Labor Day

[quade 3]

Take a couple of weeks off, Mr. Green.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Farflung 0]

OK pek771 let’s try with the Hydraulic ‘B’ system off.

If Cooper was a Loadmaster (flight experienced) then he would have gone for the manual pump and/or the nitrogen tank without so much as a quick look over his shoulder.

Cooper needed help with all four types of stair deployment. Gravity, Hydraulic, Manual Pump and Pneumatic deployment. That’s a lot of failure for someone familiar with the system.

Cooper asked for an intermediate level off while trying to get the stairs open. Someone experienced with the 727’s system could (assuming here) have used the interphone properly and had the Flight Engineer bring on the pressurization as a way to produce a differential which may (may here) have opened the aft stairs. Running the pressurization like that is ‘wicked’ loud to use technical terms.

The ‘B’ system hydraulics could be related to Cooper struggling with the stairs assuming (assuming again) that he had no flight or system experience. Once again, Cooper is not demonstrating behaviors consistent with a person who is dripping with flight experience. Yet, sweet, nubile, Tina who was with the airline a whopping 18 months opened them while under duress of imminent explosion and death. Yet she is not viewed as some sort of ‘Skygoddess’ (except by me). Lucky I’m sensitive like that.

[377 21]

Faflung wrote

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Yet, sweet, nubile, Tina who was with the airline a whopping 18 months opened them while under duress of imminent explosion and death. Yet she is not viewed as some sort of ‘Skygoddess’ (except by me). Lucky I’m sensitive like that.

Is she any less attractive to you Farflung post convent? Do you like her out of habit?

You are right about the failed link in all these evidence chains. Sigh.

Loadmasters are all about securing payloads and delivering them intact and undamaged. I doubt if we'd be finding any loot at Tena Bar if DBC had been a loadmaster. No sir. A loadmaster would have been completely prepared to handle the loot.

So Quade still reads the forum. Quade, let Snow back for a week and see how it goes. Nobody will think less of you if you do. Why not give it a shot? Most bans are not permanent. You've let people back who committed worse sins than Snow.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

I'm not letting go so easily.
How about a loadmaster, not from a 727 but who had heard about the jumps... That would explain flaps + rig but not the stairs? (....nervously awaits Farflung's next devastating critique...)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[pek771 0]

My assumption is that Cooper had no prior flight or system experience with the 727, which in my mind means no working for Boeing or an airline. He figured he could get out via the back stairs.

As you have previously stated, there are many people who can put on a parachute and have never jumped. Cooper may well be in that category. Wanting to jump and having to jump are two different things.

I will make a further assumption as far as Skygoddesses go...about two years ago, a very experienced pilot put an Airbus down in the Hudson. This is possibly the best bit of commercial flying I have ever seen or heard of. The best part was the Skygoddesses marshalled everyone out of that aircraft promptly. One even found time to try and pull the aft door closed after an overzealous passenger tried to open it ("don't open the doors which are underwater" is not on the card in your seatback pocket). Regardless of their time in grade, they are trained well for these emergencies, as are the entire crew. Tina seems to be an example of doing what was necessary for the preservation of the crew, competantly.

[377 21]

Orange wrote

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(....nervously awaits Farflung's next devastating critique...)

Me too. It's hell.

I wish he'd refocus on nun lust and pay less attention to our logic.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

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Smokin 99. You and Orange one always make valid points. Someday you guys will have to tell me what brain food you eat, lord knows I could use me some of that kind of food. Jerry

I have to answer because I have just eaten some of my all time favourite food which is indeed widely acknowledged to be brain food ---> SALMON!

Mmmmm Sammmings....MMMMMM

How I spent Labor Day

Funny. My Dad was a commercial fisherman. We didn't have much money so fresh King Salmon was a staple from April 15 to Sept 31st. When short fish came in dead on the gear they went to us kids rather than overboard to the Dungeness crabs. Frozen salmon filled the off season plates of four hungry boys. Salmon salmon salmon. Salmon steaks, BBQ'd salmon, salmon omlettes, salmon burgers, cured salmon, smoked salmon etc. We'd long for my Dad to get a really good catch so my Mom could afford to buy beef.

Don't know about salmon being brain food. Reading and posting on here could be viewed as contrary evidence.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

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My assumption is that Cooper had no prior flight or system experience with the 727, which in my mind means no working for Boeing or an airline. He figured he could get out via the back stairs.

As you have previously stated, there are many people who can put on a parachute and have never jumped. Cooper may well be in that category. Wanting to jump and having to jump are two different things.

I will make a further assumption as far as Skygoddesses go...about two years ago, a very experienced pilot put an Airbus down in the Hudson. This is possibly the best bit of commercial flying I have ever seen or heard of. The best part was the Skygoddesses marshalled everyone out of that aircraft promptly. One even found time to try and pull the aft door closed after an overzealous passenger tried to open it ("don't open the doors which are underwater" is not on the card in your seatback pocket). Regardless of their time in grade, they are trained well for these emergencies, as are the entire crew. Tina seems to be an example of doing what was necessary for the preservation of the crew, competantly.

agree.

[377 21]

Cook is to Blevins as Blevins is to Georger as Jo is to Jerry as Snowmman is to Quade. If I could just do the math. Help me Orange. Describe the matrix. I used to know how to take determinants.

Certain people incite hyper critical responses in certain others. Its not uniform. What is the code?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Hominid 0]

Thanks skyjack. I've got the most basics.

I'll be 70 (years) if I make thru Dec. And someone will havta wak me real hard to keep me from it.

[Hominid 0]

You mean that manual pump he has to get outside the aircraft to get to so he can open the stair so he can get outside to get to the pump? That one?

[Farflung 0]

RobertMBlevins penned:

“….and then shoot his story full of more holes than a ten pound block of Swiss cheese.”

An adjective too far perhaps?

[Hominid 0]

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OK pek771 let’s try with the Hydraulic ‘B’ system off.

If Cooper was a Loadmaster (flight experienced) then he would have gone for the manual pump and/or the nitrogen tank without so much as a quick look over his shoulder.

There was no nitrogen tank. The gas was totally contained within the two actuators, tubing, valves, etc. It started off being on one side of the actuators. The valves let it move to the other. The pistons moved out because the surface areas on one side of the pistons was bigger than on the other. This is all in the pneumatic sys diagram in 377's manual.

[Farflung 0]

Yep that would be the one.

[Farflung 0]

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There was no nitrogen tank. The gas was totally contained within the two actuators, tubing, valves, etc. It started off being on one side of the actuators. The valves let it move to the other. The pistons moved out because the surface areas on one side of the pistons was bigger than on the other. This is all in the pneumatic sys diagram in 377's manual.

If you prefer nitrogen 'charge' better, then by all means use that.

Where is the source indicating the nitrogen charge was used and the shear lags replaced on Flight 305?

[Hominid 0]

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Cooper needed help with all four types of stair deployment.

Source?

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Cooper asked for an intermediate level off while trying to get the stairs open.

Source?

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Someone experienced with the 727’s system could (assuming here) have ... had the Flight Engineer bring on the pressurization as a way to produce a differential which may (may here) have opened the aft stairs.

Sure, pump up that seive. When it gets up to 20 admospheres it'll finally rip the latches or uplock rollers off. The stair will fly out and the cabin will near instantly be back to .7atm.

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The ‘B’ system hydraulics could be related to Cooper struggling with the stairs assuming (assuming again) that he had no flight or system experience.

Someone who dropped stairs multiple times daily--someone who designed the stair system--could easily have had a hellofa time dropping those stairs, much less doing it in a way that was safe for the crew. Stair background is irrelevant to who Coop may have been

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Tina who was with the airline a whopping 18 months opened them.

Souce? You sure make it hard to be nice to you.

[Hominid 0]

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Where is the source indicating the nitrogen charge was used and the shear lags replaced on Flight 305?

I don't know of one. Do you know of someone who said it happened? Gotta learn to actually pay attention when you do that thing we call "reading."

[smokin99 0]

RobertBlevins,

I'm not advocating any one suspect or any one author. KC's not in my top tier, mainly because of physical characteristics, but he might be the one, who knows. I don't hack you up over him. I said gossett is as good a suspect as any cause he resembles the composite, he's got a parachuting/mil background, and his post military life is conducive, I believe, to the type of personality that might have undertaken the Cooper thing. Would I put money on it? Not at this point.
Then you felt you had to respond to my original post with silly comments about how fat Gossett was 18 months after the hijacking. Come on, that's a lot of turkey, barbecue, birthday cakes, easter eggs and Sunday buffets. Come up with something better.

I don't understand why you get so worked up about Galen Cook and Bruce Smith and frankly, I don't really care and doubt if anyone else does - All the tit for tat is just too juvenile for words. For all that, I've defended your right to be on this thread to others. Got no bone to pick with you.

But, with all due respect, if you want to talk proof, face it, for all your 25 points and book, all you really have is conjecture, he said/she said, and a premise that evolved as you found out more facts about the case.
Among other things, where's the proof that Kenny was in a camper with Bernie that weekend, that he wore a toupee, that his coins/money didn't come from shrewd investment, etc. etc? Show me the police report from when Bernie broke in and the logs were stolen from the ex-wife's? house.

Like Gossett's sons, almost everything that you have is based on what someone told you. You have no idea if it's true or not. Not only that, on the one hand you say eyewitnesses from the plane are fallible when it's about physical descriptions, but you use them as corroboration when it's something that you advocate in your candidate. I get confused.

Just saying, like others, you too have made a case mainly out of circumstantial tidbits that you don't have any real or documented proof for.
I guess you could debate whose witnesses are more reliable, but, come on, how would you ever really know?
Do I think Janet is 100% reliable. No more than any of your witnesses. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of "she experienced everything she say"s vs "she experienced nothing she says". A memory probably overlain with years of dust, slights, imagination, and lots of tv.
If Cook came on here and posted, I'm sure he'd get the same challenges as you about his suspect and be expected to back up claims. Til he does, there's just you. ....and Jo.

And that's all i have to say about that.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Hominid 0]

Robert99,

I studied your response. Remember, I only answered the thing about years a nerd.

I'll e-mail you about some of the info later. When I turned on my laptop this morning, it had a virus from hell. I think Farflung dunit;-) For now....

I gather you would agree that it would be impossible to come up with an accurate estimate of 305's wt when it got to Reno? Fuel and passengers would be easy enough, but we have no data re. cargo or the passengers' baggage weights.

I think that the standard turn wouldn't have dropped lift enough to cause a problem even if the plane was at maximum allowed landing weight. Could you calc for that condition? And anything you might think of besides the lift/stall as a reason needed to make a wide turn at the end. If you don't have the speeds I could post or email them (at least, what I think you'd need).

At 22:28pst, 305 said "On this kinda config we make pretty shallow turns cause it kills off our speed pretty much if we make a standard ..." It was interrupted by a controller saying "I understand you need a long final into Reno." Anyway, I would think the concern about losing speed was in effect saying they didn't want to add throttle, which shouldn't have been a problem when they were on final and still had considerable fuel.

As they were getting into Reno, 305 said they would need 35K-40K. And the NWA rpt Carr faxed to Sluggo (I think) said (at 10:17 or 10:37) 305 had 17,300 lb.

I assume that you've noted that lack of B hydraulics would have left 305 w/o the UPPER rudder and the inboard flight spoilers.

[Farflung 0]

Hominid requested:

“Cooper asked for an intermediate level off while trying to get the stairs open.

Source?”

Here ya go Hominid,

At least it’s a start, extracted from the N476US.com website where the crew is leveling off at 7,000 feet after requesting a climb to altitude as fast as he can go.

Even kept it in a graphic format. They leveled off at 7 because ‘he’ (assume Cooper) wants the stairs down.

More to follow, you might want to check out what happens when the aft handle is placed in the ‘other’ position with the aft bulkhead (pressure vessel door) open. Of course the aft door would be open, otherwise you could not access the aft stair controls (sometimes I just don’t think). Not sure how that system would get to 20 atmospheres. Sounds robust. I was in a rapid-D and the pressurization system didn’t stand a chance with keeping up.

You of course assumed that a person would have placed the aft stair handle in the ‘DOWN’ detent correct? Then (then that is) with the up-lock latch retracted the ‘potential’ pressure differential might overcome any aft stair keeping ‘em up-ness and break whatever seal (aerodynamic or otherwise).

Hope this clarifies.

[Hominid 0]

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At least it’s a start, extracted from the N476US.com website where the crew is leveling off at 7,000 feet after requesting a climb to altitude as fast as he can go.

Even kept it in a graphic format. They leveled off at 7 because ‘he’ (assume Cooper) wants the stairs down.

And why do you assume that "he" was Cooper?

The (GC) was often "Al" because the person hearing the comms couldn't always tell who he was hearing. The "(GC)" was Al telling someone else around there (like ARTCC) that "he" the pilot wanted to get up. Nobody said who "he" was. Like, "the guy in back."
(source: Hominid)

They probably did level off because Coop wanted to get the stairs down. That doesn't mean he requested it. It's very likely the crew just wanted to be able to concentrate on that little chore.

I'll try to figure out what the rest means and get back to ya.

[pek771 0]

When did Tina intervene with the stair lowering exercise? Is she actually who got the stairs down, and not Cooper? And, did she know about the B system status? I suppose if you are going to send a crew member back there to drop the stairs, it would be best to level off.

If I may ask, the only conditions which result in free floating stairs would be manual drop, or if the shear mechanisms were in fact sheared. Sound correct?

[Farflung 0]

Hominid asks:

“And why do you assume that "he" was Cooper?”

A. The transmission is FROM Flight 305 not the controllers.

B. Who else wanted the stairs down?

C. There were three men in the cockpit and one made the transmission. I did not consider that one of the crew would want the stairs down and spontaneously level off before the prior demanded altitude by the guy holding the bomb.

D. Context. We are going to level off here. Who is this ‘WE’ that is leveling off at 7,000 feet where ‘he’ wants the stairs down?

With all that, I still gave a wild ass attribution of ‘assume’ as not to make things up out of whole cloth.