DB Cooper

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo . Sorry as usual your post of me being banned from the areal Tavern is another made up story of yours according to Donna. Still Donna is in her 70s and clasifies me as a want to be DB Cooper hunter with a will to solve this case honestly and not through fiction. In her own words I am a want a be. In all fairness she is correct because I realy do want to solve this case and not through Made up stories or lies but through actual invstigative work along with research /hard ground pounding and cooperation with scientest and the FBI.Why you ever posted that Donna banned me and That Ralph Hated me in one of your past post no one can figure out. And Jo You Did All on this forum remembers your post. Or if you like I will and can give you a post number. Still why do you wish to make the Weber family name a thing to be ashamed of . Jo the name is not even related to you anymore . Remember you remarried after Duane's death.Move On . Better yet Take a polygraph test so we can all see the real Jo, ?/ whatever your last name realy is. Point being you have no claim to the Weber name or Legacy any more so stop trying to make his memory worse to benifit your pocket book or "?" Jerry PS Jo further more if Donna ever wishes to sell that store I will Buy it , I have told her this Shelly and I think it would be a good investment for nostalgia purposes but this is Donnas home and she is very attached to it and not becase of the Cooper case Donna is a very respectfull and god fearing woman and is admired by all locals she helps many people in the area, all kidding aside shelly and I think the world of her she has done things for this case above and beyound that of most owners of a famous Icon as her store, all that know her personally will tell you the same.Jerry

[georger 197]

377 ... I've forgotten too much maths. But one thing economics teaches you is that just about anything can be represented with an equation and a graph ...maybe I'll have a go at modeling the forum one day. Clearly a behavioral economist would have a lot to say about the lack of rationality here

Save your time; its already been done.

Its a Julius-Ruis set.

[georger 197]

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Jo . Sorry as usual your post of me being banned from the areal Tavern is another made up story of yours according to Donna. Still Donna is in her 70s and clasifies me as a want to be DB Cooper hunter with a will to solve this case honestly and not through fiction. In her own words I am a want a be. In all fairness she is correct because I realy do want to solve this case and not through Made up stories or lies but through actual invstigative work along with research /hard ground pounding and cooperation with scientest and the FBI.Why you ever posted that Donna banned me and That Ralph Hated me in one of your past post no one can figure out. And Jo You Did All on this forum remembers your post. Or if you like I will and can give you a post number. Still why do you wish to make the Weber family name a thing to be ashamed of . Jo the name is not even related to you anymore . Remember you remarried after Duane's death.Move On . Better yet Take a polygraph test so we can all see the real Jo, ?/ whatever your last name realy is. Point being you have no claim to the Weber name or Legacy any more so stop trying to make his memory worse to benifit your pocket book or "?" Jerry

we need a second thread for this crap!

[Hominid 0]

Quote

In another place you say, quote:

"It is also possible that a pressure "bump" would
have occurred as a result of the stairs quickly
opening. If so, this bump would have been opposite
in polarity from the bump caused in the later flight
test by the stair rebounding upward. That is, a
pressure bump caused by use of the emergency
extension would have been a big "suck" instead of
a "blow."

Care to explain your current thoughts on this?

Sure, Georger. Still just the same. We would have to know how much the stair fell, and how fast, when kicked by the pneumatic actuators. I could estimate the kicks from the pressure and the volumes, by scaling, but would have no idea what the resistance by the stair would be. We'd need not only weight of the stairs, but how much is used up in shearing the lugs and shoving the air and breaking any hangup.

Basically, though, the reason for the bump would be the same as for the one we know of. Just opposite direction.

The only reason I mentioned the possibility is that if anyone is ever able to get access to info from the flight data recorder, knowing of such possibilities could help in correlating events.

If you never found the source of the chart you asked once about, I have a couple of possibilities.

[Hominid 0]

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Am I high? Well if you call someone who loves America and freedom high; then the answer would be yes. I hope this knowledge assists you with your evening. I behave the same way in front of the police as I do in other places. No need for a second, secret life. You should try it Hominid, much less stress.

That's really mean. How can I be mean to you with you being proud American? Your source is really bad if it tell you I'm not.

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger/ Grandpa. Hows the little one doing . Forgot to ask last time we talked. Guess your the happiest man on earth. Does the little one say grandpa yet. Jerry

[EVickiW 0]

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Cooper didn't die because he wasn't missed? Really? Mel Ward disappeared.

ALL of the above suspects have been dismissed by the FBI. So no, one of you is not allowed to use that excuse for another suspect when it suits you.

Hey Orange1.
<----Did you mean my father Melvin Wilson

Melvin Wilson has not been dismissed though any FBI investigation. To my knowledge he is not even considered a suspect. Mel's fingerprints were never compared. Eng set his file aside and did not pursue the "lead".

I guess they were convinced LD was their guy. They (the FBI) put all available resources into that investigation. I mean Marla had the halo effect going on and the media sucked it right up.

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

In another place you say, quote:

"It is also possible that a pressure "bump" would
have occurred as a result of the stairs quickly
opening. If so, this bump would have been opposite
in polarity from the bump caused in the later flight
test by the stair rebounding upward. That is, a
pressure bump caused by use of the emergency
extension would have been a big "suck" instead of
a "blow."

Care to explain your current thoughts on this?

Sure, Georger. Still just the same. We would have to know how much the stair fell, and how fast, when kicked by the pneumatic actuators. I could estimate the kicks from the pressure and the volumes, by scaling, but would have no idea what the resistance by the stair would be. We'd need not only weight of the stairs, but how much is used up in shearing the lugs and shoving the air and breaking any hangup.

Basically, though, the reason for the bump would be the same as for the one we know of. Just opposite direction.

The only reason I mentioned the possibility is that if anyone is ever able to get access to info from the flight data recorder, knowing of such possibilities could help in correlating events.

If you never found the source of the chart you asked once about, I have a couple of possibilities.

Let me break this down -

(a) do you have an estimate of the pressure inside
the (unpressurised) cabin traveling at the height and
velocity it was traveling? The pressure inside the
vessel has to be high enough to trigger a response
from the guages when opening and when closing ..

(b) How do you distinguish opening pressure spike
from closing spike? Different nominal pressures for
each?

(c) Could oscillations be confused with an opening
event where lower pressure was involved vs. a
closing pressure spike?

(d) We have all these reports of jumpers passing
through doors (or juping from the bottom of the
stairs) all creating a swoosh (pressure differential) -
any thoughts on that phenominon?

Lastly, you realise the significance of a opening
and closing spike? He bails later than thought. ?

[Hominid 0]

it'll be a few minutes

[Orange1 0]

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Save your time; its already been done.

Its a Julius-Ruis set.

Er, OK. My second-rate-vs-real-sciences math never took me there

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Hey Orange1.
Wilson

Melvin Wilson has not been dismissed though any FBI investigation. To my knowledge he is not even considered a suspect. Mel's fingerprints were never compared. Eng set his file aside and did not pursue the "lead".
.

sorry Vicki yes I did mean that. And I stand corrected, and in that case I think someone should get on the FBI's case. If Jo could harass Carr enough to get him to check Weber I don't see why you shouldn't get a fair chance. (I know you're not the harassing type though...!)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

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Quote

Save your time; its already been done.

Its a Julius-Ruis set.

Er, OK. My second-rate-vs-real-sciences math never took me there

Look here:

http://www.fractal.org/Julius-Ruis-Set.pdf

at the bottom of the pdf are some links...
the model was designed as a behavioral
management decision making predictor tool...
could apply to Cooper. Been holding this in reserve
for just such an ocassion you brought up.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

. Been holding this in reserve
for just such an ocassion you brought up.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[JerryThomas 0]

Orange one. Curtis Ng is young and has not realy familuarized his self with the case as Ralph Hope has done or Larry Carr. I asure you he is working on it. He is going to Check Vicki's Dad out, again. This time he is going to test everything. As per our conversation very recently. And I do mean very recently. I haven't even had a chance to contact Vicki about it yet. I will discuss this with her by phone.This time there will be know doubt as to her Dads status in this case. If it isn't him at least she will have closure. One sure thing is that this is the kind of suspect we are actually looking for. Some one that has not been seen or heard from since the Hyjacking. Someone that is careless and not that familliar with skydiving or aircraft. I mean realy who in there right mind would want to leave the rear stairwell down for takeoff or would need help trying to figure out how to open it if they were familliar with take off or flight techniques. Better yet the choice of Chutes or even the added weight of a money bag. Go figure. Theres to many variables for this person and his mistakes to even assume he had any knowledge of either jumping or flight. Once again back to the Basic's. Still one of the Wright Brothers may have had a better chance than most the suspects. Or those Books have been written about or presented. Not to mention those that were over Qualified to even have made half the mistakes Cooper did Jerry

[Hominid 0]

Quote

(a) do you have an estimate of the pressure inside
the (unpressurised) cabin traveling at the height and
velocity it was traveling? The pressure inside the
vessel has to be high enough to trigger a response
from the guages when opening and when closing ..

The pressure is basically the "static" pressure. The actual would be only a tiny bit less because of a slight vacuum being pulled by the airflow past the back. I think I have calculated the static pressure, but it's readily available and easily calculated. R99 I'm sure has done it. You can make it pretty accurated by accounting for the -12C°, almost 100% R.H. and the fact that the S.L. normalized atmospheric pressure in the area was a bit above "standard." But, the pressure is really not relevant.

Reason: The guage of significance was the cabin rate of climb guage (like the transcript says). For normal rates of pressure change in the cabin, this guage responds proportional to pressure change rate. In effect, a differentiator. Basically, it is a very sensitive anaeroid barometer with a tiny (but calibrated) hole in the bellows. The pressure inside is constantly trying to adjust to the pressure outside. It responds big time to any sudden change because it doesn't have time enough to adjust in the midst of the change. Because of the normal decay and delay time, you can calculate just how sensitive it is in comparison to the cabin pressure guage. I don't remember the exact ratio, but its probably at least two orders of magnitude.

So, no matter what the atmospheric pressure (for normal earthly use), suddenly increase the pressure 5% and the guage will give the same BANG. It could easily be like peggin electrical meters with to-big inputs.

Quote

(b) How do you distinguish opening pressure spike
from closing spike? Different nominal pressures for
each?

The closing spike was a positive pressure pulse. The climb rate meter saw that as suddenly dropping down (where atm press is greater). The guage needle would have quickly then dropped back to zero as the air that entered the bellows through the small hole leaked back out. If a perceptible opening spike were produced, the guage reaction would have been the opposite.

Quote

(c) Could oscillations be confused with an opening
event where lower pressure was involved vs. a
closing pressure spike?

Oscillation in the sense that technical types think would not be like either kind of pressure bump. The bump we've all heard of, for example, could have involved a very slight opposite polarity as the pulse decayed. The stair went up, producing big positive pressure, then fell back down pretty much putting the tail on the pulse. In other words, it was coming back down that ended the pulse. The stair could not have rebounded back up nearly as much as the initial rebound. To a great extent, the reason for limited time frame is the dampening in the stair struts.

Quote

(d) We have all these reports of jumpers passing
through doors (or juping from the bottom of the
stairs) all creating a swoosh (pressure differential) -
any thoughts on that phenominon?

377 described this to me, and I'm pretty sure that it was more that just the swoosh. My understanding was that there was a "swoosh-bump" or "swoosh-smack." I'm not sure what to make of the swoosh part. I think he said that seemed to come as the divers were actually going through the chute. But there should be no airflow going through there to block. I think he never relayed to others one thing he said to me in response to my question. This is that when he got through the chute and right at the airstream, he was "smacked." I think the final part of the sound for each jumper is a sonic wave bouncing off the jumper. Like whack someone across the back or chest/stomach with something of the same frontal area.

Quote

Lastly, you realise the significance of a opening
and closing spike? He bails later than thought. ?

Peoples not aware of all the possibilities could mistake one event for "the" event. From what I've seen it appears that the analysts were in uncharted waters. I've seen such stuff before where mistakes were made only because of polarity.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

(a) do you have an estimate of the pressure inside
the (unpressurised) cabin traveling at the height and
velocity it was traveling? The pressure inside the
vessel has to be high enough to trigger a response
from the guages when opening and when closing ..

The pressure is basically the "static" pressure. .

Static vs Ram pressure.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi_discuss_nomath.html

[ClassClown 0]

After reading a ton of the posts on here there really seems to be a interesting group of charachters. ..............................We've got Vicki who thinks her pop's maybe Cooper................................got some old gal from the south that thinks a carreer criminal that she married is Cooper......................... got FBI agents posting up a storm before going silent,...........................got some guy named Farflung whom I have found no word to describe...............................got some general technical characters like 377 and georger......................... an obsessed 60 year old individual who's been on a Cooper quest for years.........................an author who's fairly convinced KC is Cooper.............................. some other posters who like to stir the pot and my favorite poster........Orange...............................................................so by all means carry on folks.............it's getting closer to the anniversary

[JerryThomas 0]

Class Clown . Call me confused who are you . You just logged in and signed up today for the first time. And at such a late Hour , How did you find out about this Forum. Jerry

[pek771 0]

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it'll be a few minutes

I have an image in my mind of Enrico Fermi furiously manipulating his slide rule as assorted scientists wait nervously around an atomic pile, waiting for an answer.

I only care about the stairs for one reason...credibility of the investigation. I have brought this up before. No one seems to be able to positively say what position the levers were found in after the aircraft landed in Reno. Now, I have very recently read that the crew left the aircraft via the rear stairs. Any notes on this from the copilot? Some of you have actually spoken to him; any mention of this?

What would compel someone to walk out a few steps, especially if he was not quite ready to go? I would have walked out a few steps to see if the stairs would drop as a test. If you're ready to go, and walk out and the stairs don't drop, then what?

Weren't the stairs designed to help stabilize the aircraft in the fore and aft direction during loading? Maybe I read this and it has no source? Maybe this was incorporated into later models after the -100 series? If this is the case, then how are the stairs deployed by the ground crews to introduce the stability? I assume the stairs are mechanically locked somehow. Maybe the ground crew has a big stick they use to prop the stairs up. like the clothes pole my mother used to use in the backyard?

If we know the position of the handles at Reno, the stair discussion ends. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll go back to the found money in a little while.
That's all I got.

[EVickiW 0]

Quote

After reading a ton of the posts on here there really seems to be a interesting group of charachters. ..............................We've got Vicki who thinks her pop's maybe Cooper................................got some old gal from the south that thinks a carreer criminal that she married is Cooper......................... got FBI agents posting up a storm before going silent,...........................got some guy named Farflung whom I have found no word to describe...............................got some general technical characters like 377 and georger......................... an obsessed 60 year old individual who's been on a Cooper quest for years.........................an author who's fairly convinced KC is Cooper.............................. some other posters who like to stir the pot and my favorite poster........Orange...............................................................so by all means carry on folks.............it's getting closer to the anniversary

Jerry says:

Quote

Class Clown . Call me confused who are you . You just logged in and signed up today for the first time. And at such a late Hour , How did you find out about this Forum. Jerry

Jerry.....Here is an individual who actually read the forum....and pretty much nailed it.

In addition, Orange1 has an admirer...awwwwww.

edited to say: however this information could have been learned within the last two months. Round and round we go!!! Where we stop..........?

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[sailshaw 0]

377:
When Peterson was questioned by the FBI, he mentioned that he was not Cooper to the direct question and added that it was obvious to him that Cooper did not know what he was doing (a beginner) and would have died in the attempt. Sheridan was almost too clear that it was an impossible jump and that he did not do it. What would you expect for an answer from the real DB Cooper.?

I do not know where the interview was mentioned in the DropZone but I am sure that was what he said when interviewed by the FBI.

The jump was actually an easy jump for a person with Sheridan's experience and he was only exposed to the weather for less than five minutes and was then on the ground at 47 deg F. It was a cake walk of a jump for Sheridan. He had done many night jumps before.
Bob

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Quote

(a) do you have an estimate of the pressure inside
the (unpressurised) cabin traveling at the height and
velocity it was traveling? The pressure inside the
vessel has to be high enough to trigger a response
from the guages when opening and when closing ..

The pressure is basically the "static" pressure. The actual would be only a tiny bit less because of a slight vacuum being pulled by the airflow past the back. I think I have calculated the static pressure, but it's readily available and easily calculated. R99 I'm sure has done it. You can make it pretty accurated by accounting for the -12C°, almost 100% R.H. and the fact that the S.L. normalized atmospheric pressure in the area was a bit above "standard." But, the pressure is really not relevant.

Reason: The guage of significance was the cabin rate of climb guage (like the transcript says). For normal rates of pressure change in the cabin, this guage responds proportional to pressure change rate. In effect, a differentiator. Basically, it is a very sensitive anaeroid barometer with a tiny (but calibrated) hole in the bellows. The pressure inside is constantly trying to adjust to the pressure outside. It responds big time to any sudden change because it doesn't have time enough to adjust in the midst of the change. Because of the normal decay and delay time, you can calculate just how sensitive it is in comparison to the cabin pressure guage. I don't remember the exact ratio, but its probably at least two orders of magnitude.

So, no matter what the atmospheric pressure (for normal earthly use), suddenly increase the pressure 5% and the guage will give the same BANG. It could easily be like peggin electrical meters with to-big inputs.

Quote

Hominid, You are correct about the cabin pressure (or altitude) gage being the only one of interest in the stair opening/closing issue. The flight instruments for the pilots operate off independent static/dynamic pressure systems that have nothing to do with the cabin pressure.

A couple of years ago I did do an analysis of the atmospheric DENSITY in the Portland area at the time the airliner was passing through. The only result was that the DENSITY was about 2 percent above the standard density for a 1966 Standard US Atmosphere.

At the relatively low speed at which the airliner was traveling, and the fact that the cabin pressure was only affected by the rear stairs being opened, the cabin pressure can be assumed to be about the same as the ambient pressure. Or to put it another way, the cabin absolute pressure (or altitude) would be about the same as the altitude indicated on the pilots altimeters corrected for the above standard sea level pressure that those altimeters were set to.

About a month ago, 377 had some very interesting posts on this thread about his experiences in jumping out of the rear stairway (with the stairs removed) of DC-9s. 377 said that he could feel and hear pressure variations and noises ever time a skydiver went out that door.

Perhaps 377 is the one to talk to about this "bumping and thumping".

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[Farflung 0]

Now this pressurization subject is taking on new capabilities which have never before existed. I guess this would be a fitting subject since about zero percent on this thread must have a clue about the stuff and others are more than willing to exploit that condition. This reflects poorly on the ‘authors’ not the receivers.

If you’ve seen those old photos of manly men from WWII flying bomber missions you will notice that they have some rather thick fashions. The weapons actually stuck out of open windows because the planes were not pressurized and were a painfully cold operating environment. That’s also why they wore the oxygen masks.

Pressurization roughly preserves the environment most experience in day to day life (living at or below 1000 feet MSL). When an aircraft is pressurized you don’t have to wear an oxygen mask and can heat the air effectively thus making for more comfort. The principle is simple enough, compressed air is fed into a vessel which has a slow and adjustable leak. This facilitates cabin altitude and some air exchange. So far this seems simple right? Well that’s because it is.

Now for some airplane stuff. The average airliner will pressurize around five to eight thousand feet typically. There are exceptions like landing in La Paz, Bolivia which is over 13,000 feet field elevation. Imagine having the cabin pressurized at 5,000 feet and landing in that configuration. The pressurization simply could not keep up and the masks would deploy when the engines could no longer compensate for the pressure loss. Obviously you would pull the O2 breaker and depressurize much higher than normal. Obviously.

Pressure is measured by atmospheres or PSI (pounds per square inch). Most people are experiencing around one atmosphere (14.7 lbs). To feel the effects of two atmospheres you would have to dive to around 33 feet in the ocean and 666 feet if you wanted to experience 20 atmospheres and die. To go from one atmosphere to zero you would need to go to space. That’s simple also, isn’t it?

Obviously an airplane only cares about maintaining pressure of some value below one atmosphere from another value less than one atmosphere. In short, there is no pressurization system which will need to pressurize to a value of one atmosphere (14.7 lbs). This will give you a baseline to consider when measuring the value of information. Let’s learn some more about this Black Art, I know it’s been six arduous paragraphs and reading isn’t like texting and your brain is sore. So just stop here and take a nap.

A maximum altitude of 50,000 is a good design limit for two sound reasons. One, most aircraft are not capable of reaching that altitude. Two, this is the altitude where liquids boil at body temperature (like your blood). Since most aircraft fly well below this and most don’t want a decompression to be a fatal event, 50,000 feet (1.7 lbs) is the top.

Now for some horribly scary maths which so frighten most that they would prefer to tremble while sitting in their own puddle of yellow. This isn’t that tough. Most aircraft pressurize to 5-8 thousand feet which would be 12.3 lbs which is 10.6 lbs from the pressure at 50,000 feet. So your system would need to supply 10.6 PSI of pressure at 50,000 feet altitude in order to make the cabin ‘feel’ like 5,000 feet. Annnnnnd exhale. See this really is simple stuff.

Here’s a ‘real world’ example of a system from a SAAB 340 (see attach). I dig knobs and buttons because they comfort me with all their knurled manliness and 3-D-ness. That’s what one of these Voodoo pressurization panels looks like. I know, yawwwn. I hope one can notice the advisory printed between the Cabin Alt and Cabin Rate (Alt and VVI in miniature) gauges which says, ‘DIFF PRESS MAX 7.5 PSI.’ This is a secret code which means the maximum pressure differential available is 7.5 lbs. It’s OK, I’m fluent in speaking ‘Steam Guage-ese’ and don’t speak but recognize BS in many, many forms.

Look at the graph on the lower left, I said look at it. Find the pressure for 5,000 feet (OK here- 12.2 lbs) and subtract that number from the pressurization panel maximum (7.5 lbs) and you should have 4.7 lbs as a result. Now compare the 4.7 lbs in the column for absolute pressure and the closest value is 4.4 lbs which correlates to an altitude of 30,000 feet. My goodness this research sure builds a powerful thirst, take a break and have a beer or a mug of waste oil if you’re man enough.

Wanna ‘guess’ what the service ceiling is for a SAAB 340? Ahhhh you got me because you’re so smart. That’s right, the engineers designed the pressurization system to match the capabilities of the aircraft, which was to provide about one-half of an atmosphere differential to maintain pressurization. Not 20.

Too bad how Walter Mittys, Harvey Milquetoasts and Percy Dovetonsils are always willing to believe their own garbage, then post it here. Well now you know what some limitations are for pressurization systems and can decide for yourself. If someone claims that the Boeing 727 could produce 20 atmospheres then you also know that data point probably came from the first person to drive four Clydesdales abreast.

[EVickiW 0]

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Now this pressurization subject is taking on new capabilities which have never before existed................................................

Too bad how Walter Mittys, Harvey Milquetoasts and Percy Dovetonsils are always willing to believe their own garbage, then post it here. Well now you know what some limitations are for pressurization systems and can decide for yourself. If someone claims that the Boeing 727 could produce 20 atmospheres then you also know that data point probably came from the first person to drive four Clydesdales abreast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I&ob=av3n

Just because

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[pek771 0]

Men like skimpily clad women. as it gives us the opportunity to mentally undress them. If all women walked around naked, we would have nothing left ot pur imaginations, would we?

Girls, the same but opposite likely holds true for you too.

So, we have a gent here who writes very well, has thousands and thousands of hours in a chute but has never jumped, and is entertaining. Do we need his resume and identity also?