DB Cooper

[Hominid 0]

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... you might want to check out what happens when the aft handle is placed in the ‘other’ position with the aft bulkhead (pressure vessel door) open. Of course the aft door would be open, otherwise you could not access the aft stair controls (sometimes I just don’t think). Not sure how that system would get to 20 atmospheres. Sounds robust. I was in a rapid-D and the pressurization system didn’t stand a chance with keeping up.

You of course assumed that a person would have placed the aft stair handle in the ‘DOWN’ detent correct? Then (then that is) with the up-lock latch retracted the ‘potential’ pressure differential might overcome any aft stair keeping ‘em up-ness and break whatever seal (aerodynamic or otherwise).

Hope this clarifies.

Are you high right now? You can be honest. I doubt the cops are monitoring you while you're posting here. Or is that humor?

Actually, I'm so good at figuring gibberish out that I think I know sorta what ya must be sayin. Maybe I can help.

If Dan put the handle at DOWN, the whole thing about pressurizing in hopes of pushing the stairs down would be unnecessary. The most Dan woulda had to do is put his hands on the handrails and step out onto the stairs maybe three or four steps. Stairs woulda been down for him to use and woulda stayed just as far down all the way until the crew disobeyed his orders to get them back up, or until the plane tore up its rear landing probably around Red Bluff since the stairs hanging down the extra amount woulda made them burn more fuel.

Yes, assume the handle is put to DOWN if you want the crew dead.

[Hominid 0]

The normal "manual drop" leaves the stairs down as far as they get from whatever load they're given. From there, they are not able to come back up on their own. Check valve prevents the reverse flow.

When the stairs normally "free fell" they really weren't "free." They came down a bit slow because they were sucking hydraulic out of the reservoir as they fell.

[Hominid 0]

My first comment was about your first use of "he". That was a transmission from "(GC)" = ground control. Al was using their radio. There are several instances of something Al said being attributed to "GC."

[smokin99 0]

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At least it’s a start, extracted from the N476US.com website where the crew is leveling off at 7,000 feet after requesting a climb to altitude as fast as he can go.

Even kept it in a graphic format. They leveled off at 7 because ‘he’ (assume Cooper) wants the stairs down.

And why do you assume that "he" was Cooper?

The (GC) was often "Al" because the person hearing the comms couldn't always tell who he was hearing. The "(GC)" was Al telling someone else around there (like ARTCC) that "he" the pilot wanted to get up. Nobody said who "he" was. Like, "the guy in back."
(source: Hominid)

They probably did level off because Coop wanted to get the stairs down. That doesn't mean he requested it. It's very likely the crew just wanted to be able to concentrate on that little chore.

I'll try to figure out what the rest means and get back to ya.

I think there are two "he's". I think in the first instance one GC is talking to another referring to the pilot. One "Ground Control says NW 305 wants to go to altitude as fast as "he" can. Immediately afterwards (on the pdf) another GC replies okay.

The next "he" is 305 referring to Cooper as in "he wants the steps down"

That's my assumption
And to save you guys some steps Source: Bucks County Courier Times graduation announcement. .

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[georger 199]

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Cook is to Blevins as Blevins is to Georger as Jo is to Jerry as Snowmman is to Quade. If I could just do the math. Help me Orange. Describe the matrix. I used to know how to take determinants.

Certain people incite hyper critical responses in certain others. Its not uniform. What is the code?

377

uh, bored, lonley? Speak for yourself for a change, Blevins!

[Farflung 0]

Here’s a little more data pek771 so you can decide for yourself.

Did she or didn’t she?

[Hominid 0]

Smokin,

That's obviously an assumption based on relevant knowledge and intelligence.

[Hominid 0]

Statements of prior intent. Nothing at all about what really happened. Where was she when the got the lite?

[Farflung 0]

Hominid asks with scathing passive aggression:

“Are you high right now? You can be honest. I doubt the cops are monitoring you while you're posting here. Or is that humor?

Actually, I'm so good at figuring gibberish out that I think I know sorta what ya must be sayin. Maybe I can help.

If Dan put the handle at DOWN, the whole thing about pressurizing in hopes of pushing the stairs down would be unnecessary. The most Dan woulda had to do is put his hands on the handrails and step out onto the stairs maybe three or four steps. Stairs woulda been down for him to use and woulda stayed just as far down all the way until the crew disobeyed his orders to get them back up, or until the plane tore up its rear landing probably around Red Bluff since the stairs hanging down the extra amount woulda made them burn more fuel.

Yes, assume the handle is put to DOWN if you want the crew dead.”


Am I high? Well if you call someone who loves America and freedom high; then the answer would be yes. I hope this knowledge assists you with your evening. I behave the same way in front of the police as I do in other places. No need for a second, secret life. You should try it Hominid, much less stress.

If Dan put the handle to the down position then what’s all the hub-bub about? There is a school of thought that you needed to be an aeronautical engineer working at Boeing to operate those nasty old stairs. Then 377 posted some information and it is clear that anyone could open the stairs with the slightest experience. As you have just confirmed.

No need for any more discussion on the subject. Dan did NOT know how to open the stairs and Tina DID know. Gee that was easy. There really is nothing to this stair subject after all. So sorry for causing the discourse, I’ve always been an advocate that these are not difficult things to operate.

[Robert99 38]

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At least it’s a start, extracted from the N476US.com website where the crew is leveling off at 7,000 feet after requesting a climb to altitude as fast as he can go.

Even kept it in a graphic format. They leveled off at 7 because ‘he’ (assume Cooper) wants the stairs down.

And why do you assume that "he" was Cooper?

The (GC) was often "Al" because the person hearing the comms couldn't always tell who he was hearing. The "(GC)" was Al telling someone else around there (like ARTCC) that "he" the pilot wanted to get up. Nobody said who "he" was. Like, "the guy in back."
(source: Hominid)

They probably did level off because Coop wanted to get the stairs down. That doesn't mean he requested it. It's very likely the crew just wanted to be able to concentrate on that little chore.

I'll try to figure out what the rest means and get back to ya.

I think there are two "he's". I think in the first instance one GC is talking to another referring to the pilot. One "Ground Control says NW 305 wants to go to altitude as fast as "he" can. Immediately afterwards (on the pdf) another GC replies okay.

The next "he" is 305 referring to Cooper as in "he wants the steps down"

That's my assumption
And to save you guys some steps Source: Bucks County Courier Times graduation announcement. .

On this Ground Control matter, there were apparently two "ground control" frequencies in use in Seattle with one of them being the NWA company frequency. At one point, there appears to be a reference in the transcript to a "company ground control" also.

So the flight crew was apparently transmitting on two separate frequencies plus on the ARINC frequency to stay in touch with NWA flight operations in Minneapolis. There was a lot of confusion, repeats due to "we were talking to (fill in the blank) and missed your transmission", etc., kind of exchanges.

To add insult to injury, the airliner was cleared for takeoff from Seattle on the ground control frequency and told to go direct to a Seattle Center frequency. This bypassed both the tower and departure control functions and led to a surprised Center asking them where they were.

[smokin99 0]

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And to save you guys some steps Source: Bucks County Courier Times graduation announcement. .

Not that it probably matters in the scheme of things, but, In the interest of accuracy, the article actually says she received her stewardess wings from Northeast Orient Airlines recently after attending McConnell.
Don't know if there is a difference between graduating and receiving wings but wanted to correct the record. Maybe they receive wings after receiving a job or completing an orientation or additional training at Northeast? FWIW.....

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Farflung 0]

Hominid states after asking for a source:

“Statements of prior intent. Nothing at all about what really happened. Where was she when the got the lite?”

Yep, just like everything else. It is however the source of how Tina was involved in opening the door and that was the initial issue. What ‘actually’ happened?

I’m sensing the arrival of secret information which only one person is aware of with a lofty title. Will the Amazing Farflungini predict the future accurately yet again? Who does know the one true answer and is the gatekeeper of relevant information by self proclamation this time?

I don’t know any of that stuff but I do know a leap of logic when I smell one. That’s all I got, seen this program already.

[smokin99 0]

I hope no one takes offense to this, but what's the significance / relevance to how the door got down - as far as hydraulics, manual, etc.?
Ever since the discussion started I've been wondering what the end run is.
I thought it was about the pressure drop initially, but I just don't see how the opening has anything to do with that. I kind of get the significance to the discussion of whether he had to have help or not - though not sure what that would prove.

I'm not being sarcastic. I really want to know. I'm not super technical, so I'm sure I'm missing the significance.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

I thought JT had been banned from the Ariel Tavern, I haven't spoke to Donna in a while. Maybe she changed her mind because of the 40th.

I do NOT want to be anywhere near JT. This man who is supposed to be the man on the ground - for reasons of his own distorted the truth for 15 yrs. He alone is responsible for the case NOT being solved in 1998. NOTE - the specific date of 1998.

The crew will NOT be there nor will I be there. Need I say MORE?

Not one member of that crew wants to even be in the same room with writers and others who have misrepresented them and cause them so much grief over the yrs. The lastest exposure of Tina and her family was the last straw for all of us. Did I day US?

Is this a TEASE? Maybe yes and maybe no!

Has the case been solved?
Has one or more witnesses stepped forward?
Has someone ID'd Cooper?
Has the FBI finally put the numbers together?

Perhaps a brilliant investigative mind has been lofting in this thread for the past few yrs. Perhaps this brilliant young investigator finally put it all together. Did he follow the profiles of all of the suspects? How much of his research has been known - NOT much because he was low low profile. It took one brilliant mind to put the pieces together.

Is he a writer? NO.
Is he FBI? - NO.
Did he present a suspect? - NO.
What proof does he have? LOTS.

Did he up the FBI? Wait and see!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 38]

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I thought JT had been banned from the Ariel Tavern, I haven't spoke to Donna in a while. Maybe she changed her mind because of the 40th.

I do NOT want to be anywhere near JT. This man who is supposed to be the man on the ground - for reasons of his own distorted the truth for 15 yrs. He alone is responsible for the case NOT being solved in 1998. NOTE - the specific date of 1998.

The crew will NOT be there nor will I be there. Need I say MORE?

Not one member of that crew wants to even be in the same room with writers and others who have misrepresented them and cause them so much grief over the yrs. The lastest exposure of Tina and her family was the last straw for all of us. Did I day US?

Is this a TEASE? Maybe yes and maybe no!

Has the case been solved?
Has one or more witnesses stepped forward?
Has someone ID'd Cooper?
Has the FBI finally put the numbers together?

Perhaps a brilliant investigative mind has been lofting in this thread for the past few yrs. Perhaps this brilliant young investigator finally put it all together. Did he follow the profiles of all of the suspects? How much of his research has been known - NOT much because he was low low profile. It took one brilliant mind to put the pieces together.

Is he a writer? NO.
Is he FBI? - NO.
Did he present a suspect? - NO.
What proof does he have? LOTS.

Did he up the FBI? Wait and see!

Jo, Just solve the damn Cooper case and get it over with! Then I for one can get on to more serious matters like searching for Amelia.

[Hominid 0]

It was the source as to how she was to have been involved. What one thinks might happen a minute from now does not always come to be. This is not "secret" to most. Look at transcript. Stew is with us. ..... Now have aft stair light.

[Farflung 0]

In order for Cooper to pull off his caper there was a school of thought that these stairs were complex to operate so it would take a Boeing engineer or Black Ops veteran to operate the things. It has an UP and a DOWN and that’s as technical as it needed to get.

There were no sources for the aft stairs so like all lore it grew legs and a third nipple and became more and more and more complex until just recently when 377 posted the schematic of the things. UP and DOWN and gravity assist down. Period.

Nope. Now the stairs are a danger to open in flight even though the transcripts show there was no such concern. Only about leaving them down for takeoff and landing. I believe (believe that is) that 305 was the only plane to land with the stairs down. The dozen copy cats to follow had none of the troubles Cooper did and one was from a DC-9.

The resistance is from the pre-plotted desire that Cooper had to be aviation savvy and all James Bondy because that’s what is wanted. If it turns out to be some Goober like LaPoint or McNally that will make people cry. No one wants Cooper to be a former magazine subscription salesman or gas station attendant.

Notice how those case studies are soundly ignored by the illuminati?

[smokin99 0]

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It was the source as to how she was to have been involved. What one thinks might happen a minute from now does not always come to be. This is not "secret" to most. Look at transcript. Stew is with us. ..... Now have aft stair light.

But couldn't it just as easily mean: The stew just returned from helping with the door so now the aft stair light is on?? Or maybe she just went back and told him what to do and he said I got it now??

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[smokin99 0]

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I thought JT had been banned from the Ariel Tavern, I haven't spoke to Donna in a while. Maybe she changed her mind because of the 40th.

I do NOT want to be anywhere near JT. This man who is supposed to be the man on the ground - for reasons of his own distorted the truth for 15 yrs. He alone is responsible for the case NOT being solved in 1998. NOTE - the specific date of 1998.

The crew will NOT be there nor will I be there. Need I say MORE?

Not one member of that crew wants to even be in the same room with writers and others who have misrepresented them and cause them so much grief over the yrs. The lastest exposure of Tina and her family was the last straw for all of us. Did I day US?

Is this a TEASE? Maybe yes and maybe no!

Has the case been solved?
Has one or more witnesses stepped forward?
Has someone ID'd Cooper?
Has the FBI finally put the numbers together?

Perhaps a brilliant investigative mind has been lofting in this thread for the past few yrs. Perhaps this brilliant young investigator finally put it all together. Did he follow the profiles of all of the suspects? How much of his research has been known - NOT much because he was low low profile. It took one brilliant mind to put the pieces together.

Is he a writer? NO.
Is he FBI? - NO.
Did he present a suspect? - NO.
What proof does he have? LOTS.

Did he up the FBI? Wait and see!

Jo, Just solve the damn Cooper case and get it over with! Then I for one can get on to more serious matters like searching for Amelia.

I'm with my R99 and 377 on this one. If you're waiting for an invitation, consider it given.
Oh wait......crap.....another book. Are we gonna have to wait for another book, Jo? Are is it another tease? Geez Louise.
You know I told you that I would shoot the crow and cook it if all of us DB Cooper zoners have to eat it. I do a mean dutch oven squirrel stew over an open fire. Guess i could whup up a crow or two. So out with it.
I've kinda been wondering if Amelia made it to that island myself.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Hominid 0]

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I hope no one takes offense to this, but what's the significance / relevance to how the door got down - as far as hydraulics, manual, etc.?
Ever since the discussion started I've been wondering what the end run is.

I thought it was about the pressure drop initially, but I just don't see how the opening has anything to do with that. I kind of get the significance to the discussion of whether he had to have help or not - though not sure what that would prove.

Smokin,

Please don't worry about "offense." Asking a sensible question is always in order. If someone takes offense to such, I say "tough." I'll try to explain the significance from my perspective.

I'm stricken with huge curiosity about the case. It has many technical aspects. But what "media" has generally covered about the case is the human interest, the Robin Hood, etc. If a reporter ever got some useful technical information from one of the participants (like Bill Rataczak), the reporter would ignore it and go for something people will like. Or, would incorrectly write what the source said.

So the case is characterized by very few real pieces of evidence, very few real facts, huge amounts of misinformation, etc. Sounds like a real challenge, right? That's why I'm interested in the case. It is a super mystery.

With the sparsity of evidence, I think if would be a really fun thing just to be part of solving it. I don't care if I solve it. I would just as soon give a bit of info to someone who then is able to use it to get somewhere on the case.

It may sound a bit like Hollywood, but I believe that except for the possibility of someone stumbling over Dan's body the best chances of getting something done on the case lie in closely examining everything we can about the case. It could lead us to new evidence. Or it could help us see the significance of something already before us.

One thing I'm trying to do is have people have a good feel for what Dan was likely to have been doing before he jumped. It could tell something about how long he was having to prepare, for example.

After studying the airstairs a lot, I had a breakthrough first when I acquired a manual of the right time frame, then when 377 showed me info of more detail in his manual. The bottom line about the airstair is that the time Dan getting them down tells nothing about his knowledge. There's been much discussion about that, and it should stop being an issue. There is no way he dropped the stairs in the way flight crews normally did it. Anyone, the best trained crew or the designers, could have had the same difficulties.

The "end run" is for as many as possible to understand just one little part of the little world Dan was in that night as he was anticipating a jump. A psychological look could be good as well. Anything we understand about what was going on there could be the little puzzle piece that is missing.

You mentioned the "pressure drop." I assume you mean the "pressure bump." What the crew figured they felt when Dan left the stairs? The discussion does relate to that. The fact is that the stair could not have rebounded and produced that bump unless the stair was rather free to flap. The only way that could be, is if the normal control handle were left in the UP position. Numerous sources about the stairs say that normal unpowered drop of the stairs is slow (as they suck hydraulic fluid out of the reservoir) and that the stairs are held down by the hydraulic fluid even if the hydraulic power is not applied. 377's manual makes clear to anyone with hydraulic system knowledge/experience why that is the case. Such diagrams are like words to engineers and technicians.

Hope this helps

[Hominid 0]

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Now the stairs are a danger to open in flight even though the transcripts show there was no such concern.

The transcripts show there was no concern by referring to the procedure that was sent out to 305 on how to get the stairs down. The transcripts did not show that. Read it all. Pay attention. Cross-check. Make a copy. Annotate it. Stop picking out some little detail that seems somehow to be about what you want to bash. The procedure is the evidence that there was a concern and that just doing it the simple way the stew normally did was not good enough.

[Hominid 0]

Look at the transcript. There are a few words between.

[Hominid 0]

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Or maybe she just went back and told him what to do and he said I got it now??

She was the conduit through which he got the instructions. She had never dropped the stairs in the same way before. She didn't understand why the instructions were as they were. She gave him the instructions she had been given to pass to him. She left. He dropped the stair. (source: Hominid)

[Orange1 0]

Fwiw
I agree with smokin on the suspects....Gossett is as good as Christiansen. I think both of them are a leap ahead of Weber (that's not saying much). Jo's latest post receives nothing but another roll of the eyes, being in the same vein as all the imminent revelations we have been promised/warned about for the past five years.

Jo has a lot of wild conjectures and conveniently misplaced information when it suits her.
Gossett and Christiansen have tangential circumstantial evidence.
Of the 3, Gossett is mostl likely to have been able to survive the jump, but there are thousands of other people out there who could have survived the jump too. Like Mayfield and Peterson.

Cooper didn't die because he wasn't missed? Really? Mel Ward disappeared.

ALL of the above suspects have been dismissed by the FBI. So no, one of you is not allowed to use that excuse for another suspect when it suits you.

377 ... I've forgotten too much maths. But one thing economics teaches you is that just about anything can be represented with an equation and a graph ...maybe I'll have a go at modeling the forum one day. Clearly a behavioral economist would have a lot to say about the lack of rationality here

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 199]

You mentioned the "pressure drop." I assume you mean the "pressure bump." What the crew figured they felt when Dan left the stairs? The discussion does relate to that. The fact is that the stair could not have rebounded and produced that bump unless the stair was rather free to flap. The only way that could be, is if the normal control handle were left in the UP position. Numerous sources about the stairs say that normal unpowered drop of the stairs is slow (as they suck hydraulic fluid out of the reservoir) and that the stairs are held down by the hydraulic fluid even if the hydraulic power is not applied. 377's manual makes clear to anyone with hydraulic system knowledge/experience why that is the case. Such diagrams are like words to engineers and technicians.

Hope this helps