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mark 107
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Ckret 0
watch Geraldo Live Fox News at 8PM est tonight as Mark Furman takes you behind the DB Cooper case.
Mark Fuhrman will steal your thunder Ckret. He has a knack for taking a cold case and analyzing it to death. He will look at exonnerated suspects to verify that there's really adequate information to exonnerate them.
When I thought about likely authors for the Cooper case, I obviously thought Mark Fuhrman would be one of the better authors. However, I never actually thought he'd take an interest... I'm left to ponder if the events of this past week had anything to do with him emerging on the Cooper scene.
If so, I cannot fathom him being much further than any of us regarding the case (unless he's privy to information the rest of us are not).
Knowing Mark Fuhrman's style, he will find the needle in the haystack and will give the logical conclusion. If he studied the facts (without being predisposed to a particular theory) then he'll conclude that either:
1. Someone moved the money, or
2. The "facts" are unreliable
I don't see how he'd come up with #2 without really pouring over your file... so I'm thinking #1.
You did mention there was some breakthroughs in the case and that any suspect who was alive after 11-24-71 could be counted out... so I'm expecting a bombshell...
"bones & harness recovered at the site prove Cooper died"... which again, would lead us to #1.
Thanks for the heads up, I will program my DVR!
When I thought about likely authors for the Cooper case, I obviously thought Mark Fuhrman would be one of the better authors. However, I never actually thought he'd take an interest... I'm left to ponder if the events of this past week had anything to do with him emerging on the Cooper scene.
If so, I cannot fathom him being much further than any of us regarding the case (unless he's privy to information the rest of us are not).
Knowing Mark Fuhrman's style, he will find the needle in the haystack and will give the logical conclusion. If he studied the facts (without being predisposed to a particular theory) then he'll conclude that either:
1. Someone moved the money, or
2. The "facts" are unreliable
I don't see how he'd come up with #2 without really pouring over your file... so I'm thinking #1.
You did mention there was some breakthroughs in the case and that any suspect who was alive after 11-24-71 could be counted out... so I'm expecting a bombshell...
"bones & harness recovered at the site prove Cooper died"... which again, would lead us to #1.
Thanks for the heads up, I will program my DVR!
.........................
watch Geraldo Live Fox News at 8PM est tonight as Mark Furman takes you behind the DB Cooper case.
...................................
ok what happened, only have rabbit ears TV and seems that the "Simpsons" were on FOX here.
watch Geraldo Live Fox News at 8PM est tonight as Mark Furman takes you behind the DB Cooper case.
...................................
ok what happened, only have rabbit ears TV and seems that the "Simpsons" were on FOX here.
I rarely watch FOX News so I put my wife into "monitor" mode. She saw nothing about Dan Cooper.
BTW: Geraldo Live (or whatever it's called) is on the "FOX News" cable channel, not the Fox Network.
Sluggo
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BTW: Geraldo Live (or whatever it's called) is on the "FOX News" cable channel, not the Fox Network.
Sluggo
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
ltdiver 3
QuoteQuoteIF there is a card, and it survived, it'd be a very interesting story to hear from the rigger who's pack job it was...even if it wasn't Cossey (and thus, of course, wasn't Cooper's rig either). Might be a little mystery yet in that harness/container. :^)
QuoteThat's assuming, of course, that that canopy was being jumped as a reserve. It was common practice to take 28' reserves and convert them to sport mains by cutting vents and slots, and adding a sleeve. Although the converted military surplus container would have a data card pocket, it would be empty.
Again, enlightening information.
If it was a converted reserve into a main (with vent cuts and slots), wouldn't that have been visible in the photos that have been distributed online here? And of course, if it was a cutaway (or planted) 'main' then there would be no container down there in the dirt. Only the rest of the lines, and the risers. :^(
Then why so hard a pull that the kids couldn't dislodge it?(How old were these kids btw??)
Quote
But as long as we're hoping, we can hope that the data card is a personalized one. Some riggers used to print their own, a form of marketing or advertising. The card would last until the end of the pack cycle, 60 days, when the next rigger would throw it away and substitute his own -- no sense in advertising for the competition!
Mark
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
(How old were these kids btw??)
ltdiver 3
QuoteI rarely watch FOX News so I put my wife into "monitor" mode. She saw nothing about Dan Cooper.
BTW: Geraldo Live (or whatever it's called) is on the "FOX News" cable channel, not the Fox Network.
Sluggo
Thanks for that heads up. NO WONDER I couldn't find it here. I only have a little measly antenna connection. ![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
Ckret,
As we say in the "Deep South" my beloved "Deep South"; "You jes' messin' wid us? Wha cha wanna do that fer?"
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Ckret 0
I don't get Fox either so I didn't see anything, but they advertised it would be on tonight. Guess they are waiting for breaking news.
ryoder 1,571
QuoteI don't get Fox either so I didn't see anything, but they advertised it would be on tonight. Guess they are waiting for breaking news.
Faux News is on at 9pm here in Denver.
Just for you Ckret, I'll lift my ban on it to watch it this once.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.
Just finished watching the show... yep, no mention of our good ole friend Dan Cooper.
However, the rumors have been circulating that Mark Fuhrman is taking an interest in this case. I had heard that well before Ckret posted. Ckret might have some first hand knowledge as to the depth of the rumor.
Judging from Furhman's appearance tonight, he seems to be more of an opinion type of guy with maybe a cursory understanding of cases. However, he usually calls them as he sees them and does tend to come up with reasonable conclusions.
It would be interesting to see what he comes up with since the details of this case are so involved. Look at how much time we spend mulling over every little detail just to uncover a clue that could lead to a breakthrough... Fuhrman simply hasn't had that much time (unless he's on this board reading everything).
But that's just my two cents.
I feel like it's Christmas Eve Ckret.... can't wait to open a new present. Just promise you'll fill us in on any breaking news (yea or nea) when you have a chance.
However, the rumors have been circulating that Mark Fuhrman is taking an interest in this case. I had heard that well before Ckret posted. Ckret might have some first hand knowledge as to the depth of the rumor.
Judging from Furhman's appearance tonight, he seems to be more of an opinion type of guy with maybe a cursory understanding of cases. However, he usually calls them as he sees them and does tend to come up with reasonable conclusions.
It would be interesting to see what he comes up with since the details of this case are so involved. Look at how much time we spend mulling over every little detail just to uncover a clue that could lead to a breakthrough... Fuhrman simply hasn't had that much time (unless he's on this board reading everything).
But that's just my two cents.
I feel like it's Christmas Eve Ckret.... can't wait to open a new present. Just promise you'll fill us in on any breaking news (yea or nea) when you have a chance.
Ckret 0
I spent about four hours with Fuhrman on Friday, he seemed to be very interested in the case, really nice guy. They must be waiting to air the piece.
Safe, go back to my first post on this thread where I talked about needing to find a new line AB with data from your calculations of the Washougal and the drop of a canvas bag. Now put that great investigative mind of yours to work. From that I am sure you will be able to gain some insight about the newly discovered evidence. I will hopefully be able to bring all up to speed sometime on Monday, but if I were you I would not bound out of bed and race downstairs shakin boxes. But thats me.
Safe, go back to my first post on this thread where I talked about needing to find a new line AB with data from your calculations of the Washougal and the drop of a canvas bag. Now put that great investigative mind of yours to work. From that I am sure you will be able to gain some insight about the newly discovered evidence. I will hopefully be able to bring all up to speed sometime on Monday, but if I were you I would not bound out of bed and race downstairs shakin boxes. But thats me.
Quote
Something quizzical? They mentioned the hijacker boarded at PDX then later there is a comment that "The passenger that boarded at PDX had previous arrest for drunkenness". Anyone heard this before or have any idea about it - it implies they thougt they knew who he was??
Orange where did you find that? - I have never read that and if I did I must not have been paying attention.
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snowmman 3
some random things maybe Ckret can respond to
sorry for the length (i was posting on another forum)
this witness and flight path:
http://www.columbian.com/news/localNews/2008/03/03282008_Chute-opens-speculation.cfm
....Dennis Levanen, who lives in the Heisson area, said he vividly remembers the airplane flying directly over his house on Thanksgiving Eve in 1971. He quibbles with the FBI’s flight path of the airplane, noting that it appears several miles west of where it actually flew.
“It was just huge and roaring,” he said. “It was under a lot of power to keep it airborne, going as slow as the guy demanded.”...
I've also been reading the recently released transcripts and have some questions. Starting with: did Cooper even ask for 4 chutes to start with? I don't think so. I don't think he asked for reserves.
page 1 of the transcript has this exchange
(when it starts with 305, that's communication from the plane)
305 PSGR ADV IS RIHAKING ENRTE TO EA
STEW HAS BEEN HANDED NOTE REQST 2HND THSD
AND KNAPSACK BY 5PM SEA THIS AFTNN
WANTS 2 BAK PAK PARACHUTES
WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRNCY
DENOMINATION OF BILLS NOT IMPORATANT
HAS BOMB IN BRIEF CASE AND ILL USE IT IF
ANYTHING IS DONE TO BLOCK HIS REQUEST
ENRTE TO SEA
(note the ENRTE TO EA and ENRTE TO SEA) is "enroute to seattle"
ah. 2HND THSD is "two hundred thousand" abbreviation
Interesting Cooper asked for a knapsack (I guess they didn't give him one) so that was his plan for the money..not tying it around himself like he did...see he did have a good plan for carrying the money.
Okay the idea of chest packs seems to have been introduced by the team on the ground
I think...not Cooper.
page 2 of the transcripts
SEADD ARE IN CTC WITH LOCAL BANK AND
ARRANGING FOR THE MONEY ND WILL HAVE
THE TWO CHEST PACKS SOON ALREADY HAVE
THE TWO BACK PACKS
Maybe the ground team thought they were being smart by giving him chest plus back rigs. Or maybe they were just stalling for time.
So this whole thing about the training reserve may be bogus. Cooper might
have just tossed it.
There's the whole military/civilian chute backstory that's not in the transcripts. Maybe they talked to the military and then talked to Cooper again, but Cooper rejected the military chutes (as has been reported). I think it was just a verbal rejection if so. In any case, maybe the ground team started this whole 4 parachute thing...chest vs back.
I still don't know where the 2nd backpack rig ended up. Supposedly it was still on the plane afterwards? If so where did it go? Cossey knew which rig Cooper jumped with...so Cossey must have saw an unused backpack rig.
Maybe the FBI just gave it back to Cossey? rather than keeping it as evidence? If so, that's embarassing to them now?
I was also wondering if the FBI had investigated people that were part of all the big layoffs at Boeing in Spring '71. The supersonic transport had just been cancelled.
They had huge layoffs that year. I could see how getting the money, and showing Boeing that he was a lot smarter than they thought would make sense.
The 15 degree flap request in the transcripts sounds interesting till you realize a 727-100 only had 3 positions 5/15/25 and 15 was typical.
Did the pilot relay 15 degrees in his opinion, or did Cooper actually specify the 15 degree position.
I'm wondering if Cooper worked on trim analysis at Boeing, since he knew with gear down and flaps at 15, you could fly the 727 with the stairs down. The pilots didn't even know that you could lower it in flight.
Witness this from the transcripts while the plane was still on the ground..
(abbreviations are easy to decipher. These apparently were typed on the fly. .typist apparently used "XXX"
at the end of a word if he made an error..no backspace in those days! so ignore words ending in XXX in the transcripts)
Cooper specified they would fly with the "AFT STAIRS TO BE LWRD AFTER TKOFF"
and "AFT PSGR LOADING DOOR WILL BE OPEN" even before they took off after fueling
see page 10.
"305 R HAVEXXX AFT PSGR LOADING DOOR WILL BE OPEN AND WILL REMAIN IN THAT POSN AND AFT STAIRS TO BE LWRD AFTR TKOFF"
The pilot/control apparently thought the stairs couldn't be lowered in flight, so there was all sorts of debate about taking off with the stairs down or partially down. But Cooper didn't say that. He was comfortable with the idea of opening in flight. What's weird is that they later say they had dumped two to three hundred lb. boxes out the aft stairs...so they must have known they could be opened in flight (since you can't take off that way)..so they weren't thinking straight. They just didn't know. Maybe there's a lot of exchanges with experts not shown, gathering this kind of info on the fly..so we see some communication early on where they didn't know about 727 experience with aft door/stairs open while flying.
on page 10/11 (note the xxx's are I think the guy on the typewriter trying to correct mistakes...so ignore those)
"305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GIRLS LVG ANY MOMENT 3RD GIRL TO STAY ITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TELL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF"
"MSP FLT OPNS DONT KNOW OF ANY WAY TO LOCK STAIRS IN INTMTDE POSN"
"305 R WIL TALK TO HIM AGAIN"
So it's not like there was some surprise when he lowered the aft stairs.
The previous reports made it out to be a big surprise when he lowered the stairs in flight. They knew he wanted to do that all along. The combination of stairs, plus flaps (and gear down?) is what led them to say they wouldn't make Mexico.
Cooper hadn't thought of that...the issue of more fuel needed if he tells them Mexico with flaps and stairs. He wasn't really going to Mexico, so he kinda missed that issue in his tunnel thinking.
Here's another important note.
at 5:47 PM PST
"305 WE HAVE INSTRCTNS FROM THE INDVDL WANTS NR1 (?) GO TO MEXICO CITY 2 TO FLY WITH GEAR DOWN AND FLAPS AT 15 EGDEG AFTR UNDERWAY ALL LITHGHTS TO BE TURND OUT IN ACFT"
So it's not clear that Cooper specified 15 degree flaps. The pilot reported 15 degree flaps. It's possible Cooper just told the pilot to lower the flaps, and the pilot was just being precise in reporting to the tower the exact state and why that wouldn't let him fly to Mexico.
This is important because a lot of reports quote the flap degree specification as evidence of Cooper being an aviation person. There's nothing that says Cooper specified the degree of the flaps. (on second thought, I'm thinking Cooper did specify 15. It's consistent with how the pilot relays demands from Cooper)
It's possible Scott later said Cooper requested 15 degrees. But it's also possible that he didn't. (I'm thinking in the end Cooper did say 15 ..see bottom here. But did he calculate 15 degrees as a Boeing engineer experienced in trim/stabilizer calcs, or did he have firsthand experience in a flight that opened the aft doors (vietnam/cia or ??))
page 11 and 12 has notes about how they can't take off with the stairs down...(I don't think Cooper asked them to?)
but then note on page 12 they say they know the plane has been flown with the stairs lowered
"MSP FLT OPS HAVE NO CNTRL PROBLEM WHEN XTNDD MAY BE SUM SLITE PITCHUP BUT ERY CNTRLLBL PLANE HAS BEEN FLOWN THIS WAY HAVE LARGE BOXES OF 2 TO 3HND LBS THRU THE DOOR IN THIS CONFIG MUST BE DOWN WITH LANDING FLAPS SPEED NOT TO CRITICAL ANY FLAT POSN BTWN 5 AND 40 AND SPEED TO 120 KTS DONT HAVE ANGLE YET BUT WORKING ON IT"
I wonder if the experience shoving two to three hundred pound boxes thru the open aft door, was from Vietnam?
So the tower was trying to work out what kind of trim was needed with the flaps, to keep the plane from pitching up, while flying with the aft stairs down...
But: Maybe he is insisting on a flap degree:
on page 12
"305 HE SEEMS TO BE INSISTENT WITH STAIRS IN 1 DEG" (typo? maybe 15?)
"MSP IMPOSS TO TKOFF WITH STAIRS XTNDD BUT FULL UTXXX UP"
"305 R WANTS GIRL TO INITIATE STAIRS AFTR TKOFF SHUD WE TIE HER DOWN TO STRUCTURE"
I think maybe Cooper understood the trim issues of a plane. If he was a laid-off Boeing engineer like I think, maybe he calculated the required flap angle with aft stairs lowered, to keep the plane trim.
on page 13/14 they note at 7:42 PM (edit: I had wrongly said 7:34 PM before)
that he's trying to lower the stairs and they have an aft stair lite on
they say they're 14 miles on V23 (vector 23)
So the aft stairs were lowered a lot earlier than 8:05?
page 16 is where they Stewardess Mucklow sees him with the "KNAPSACK AROUND HIM AND THINKS HE WILL ATTEMPT A JUMP"
they say indicated speed is 160 knots on page 16? and they're at ten thousand feet or are they at 15 thousand "indicated" as he says, and they're going to 10 thousand...The 15 is a typo...later transcripts with other towers more accurately cover the climb to 10 thousand.
So is the plane going slower than previously indicated? And Cooper maybe jumped before they got to 10 thousand? not clear.
"MSP FLT OPS WHT IS ALTDE"
"305 NOW AT 15THSD INDCTD 160 FUEL FLOW 4000 15 DEG FLAP GEAR DOWN CQN WILL STAY AT 1XX TEN THSD TIL HAS LEFT"
"8:01 PM PST"
(the time for an exchange is always last in the group)
at 8:12 PM on page 18, the pilot notes the oscillations and says he
must be doing something with the "AIR STAIRS"
at 8:05 PM on page 17 they noted trying to make contact with Cooper two times but no response. But then he did respond on the PA system.. so he's still there at 8:05 PM..
So there's a big 7 minute window of time where they don't really know where he jumped. The oscillation could have been from the stairs going full lowered when weighted by Cooper (as FBI testing showed) or maybe not
He could have jumped/fell after the oscillation..i.e. the FBI test had a guy walk out on the stairs, not actually jump (they used a sled for another test...)...maybe cooper hung on the stairs for a little while when he felt the plane oscillation..Maybe he jumped/fell 1 minute or so after the oscillation...i.e. around 8:13
still reading (I'm on page 18 of 99)
The new info for me was that the aft stairs were lowered well before 8:05...i.e. 7:42 (edited from 7:34)
So Cooper was waiting...waiting until he saw his (or maybe a?) desired landing zone before he jumped.
He didn't just get the stairs open and go for it right away.
Combine that with being able to see Portland/Vancouver lights thru the cloud cover, and it makes me more comfortable about Vancouver being the targeted jump zone.
sorry for the length (i was posting on another forum)
this witness and flight path:
http://www.columbian.com/news/localNews/2008/03/03282008_Chute-opens-speculation.cfm
....Dennis Levanen, who lives in the Heisson area, said he vividly remembers the airplane flying directly over his house on Thanksgiving Eve in 1971. He quibbles with the FBI’s flight path of the airplane, noting that it appears several miles west of where it actually flew.
“It was just huge and roaring,” he said. “It was under a lot of power to keep it airborne, going as slow as the guy demanded.”...
I've also been reading the recently released transcripts and have some questions. Starting with: did Cooper even ask for 4 chutes to start with? I don't think so. I don't think he asked for reserves.
page 1 of the transcript has this exchange
(when it starts with 305, that's communication from the plane)
305 PSGR ADV IS RIHAKING ENRTE TO EA
STEW HAS BEEN HANDED NOTE REQST 2HND THSD
AND KNAPSACK BY 5PM SEA THIS AFTNN
WANTS 2 BAK PAK PARACHUTES
WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRNCY
DENOMINATION OF BILLS NOT IMPORATANT
HAS BOMB IN BRIEF CASE AND ILL USE IT IF
ANYTHING IS DONE TO BLOCK HIS REQUEST
ENRTE TO SEA
(note the ENRTE TO EA and ENRTE TO SEA) is "enroute to seattle"
ah. 2HND THSD is "two hundred thousand" abbreviation
Interesting Cooper asked for a knapsack (I guess they didn't give him one) so that was his plan for the money..not tying it around himself like he did...see he did have a good plan for carrying the money.
Okay the idea of chest packs seems to have been introduced by the team on the ground
I think...not Cooper.
page 2 of the transcripts
SEADD ARE IN CTC WITH LOCAL BANK AND
ARRANGING FOR THE MONEY ND WILL HAVE
THE TWO CHEST PACKS SOON ALREADY HAVE
THE TWO BACK PACKS
Maybe the ground team thought they were being smart by giving him chest plus back rigs. Or maybe they were just stalling for time.
So this whole thing about the training reserve may be bogus. Cooper might
have just tossed it.
There's the whole military/civilian chute backstory that's not in the transcripts. Maybe they talked to the military and then talked to Cooper again, but Cooper rejected the military chutes (as has been reported). I think it was just a verbal rejection if so. In any case, maybe the ground team started this whole 4 parachute thing...chest vs back.
I still don't know where the 2nd backpack rig ended up. Supposedly it was still on the plane afterwards? If so where did it go? Cossey knew which rig Cooper jumped with...so Cossey must have saw an unused backpack rig.
Maybe the FBI just gave it back to Cossey? rather than keeping it as evidence? If so, that's embarassing to them now?
I was also wondering if the FBI had investigated people that were part of all the big layoffs at Boeing in Spring '71. The supersonic transport had just been cancelled.
They had huge layoffs that year. I could see how getting the money, and showing Boeing that he was a lot smarter than they thought would make sense.
The 15 degree flap request in the transcripts sounds interesting till you realize a 727-100 only had 3 positions 5/15/25 and 15 was typical.
Did the pilot relay 15 degrees in his opinion, or did Cooper actually specify the 15 degree position.
I'm wondering if Cooper worked on trim analysis at Boeing, since he knew with gear down and flaps at 15, you could fly the 727 with the stairs down. The pilots didn't even know that you could lower it in flight.
Witness this from the transcripts while the plane was still on the ground..
(abbreviations are easy to decipher. These apparently were typed on the fly. .typist apparently used "XXX"
at the end of a word if he made an error..no backspace in those days! so ignore words ending in XXX in the transcripts)
Cooper specified they would fly with the "AFT STAIRS TO BE LWRD AFTER TKOFF"
and "AFT PSGR LOADING DOOR WILL BE OPEN" even before they took off after fueling
see page 10.
"305 R HAVEXXX AFT PSGR LOADING DOOR WILL BE OPEN AND WILL REMAIN IN THAT POSN AND AFT STAIRS TO BE LWRD AFTR TKOFF"
The pilot/control apparently thought the stairs couldn't be lowered in flight, so there was all sorts of debate about taking off with the stairs down or partially down. But Cooper didn't say that. He was comfortable with the idea of opening in flight. What's weird is that they later say they had dumped two to three hundred lb. boxes out the aft stairs...so they must have known they could be opened in flight (since you can't take off that way)..so they weren't thinking straight. They just didn't know. Maybe there's a lot of exchanges with experts not shown, gathering this kind of info on the fly..so we see some communication early on where they didn't know about 727 experience with aft door/stairs open while flying.
on page 10/11 (note the xxx's are I think the guy on the typewriter trying to correct mistakes...so ignore those)
"305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GIRLS LVG ANY MOMENT 3RD GIRL TO STAY ITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TELL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF"
"MSP FLT OPNS DONT KNOW OF ANY WAY TO LOCK STAIRS IN INTMTDE POSN"
"305 R WIL TALK TO HIM AGAIN"
So it's not like there was some surprise when he lowered the aft stairs.
The previous reports made it out to be a big surprise when he lowered the stairs in flight. They knew he wanted to do that all along. The combination of stairs, plus flaps (and gear down?) is what led them to say they wouldn't make Mexico.
Cooper hadn't thought of that...the issue of more fuel needed if he tells them Mexico with flaps and stairs. He wasn't really going to Mexico, so he kinda missed that issue in his tunnel thinking.
Here's another important note.
at 5:47 PM PST
"305 WE HAVE INSTRCTNS FROM THE INDVDL WANTS NR1 (?) GO TO MEXICO CITY 2 TO FLY WITH GEAR DOWN AND FLAPS AT 15 EGDEG AFTR UNDERWAY ALL LITHGHTS TO BE TURND OUT IN ACFT"
So it's not clear that Cooper specified 15 degree flaps. The pilot reported 15 degree flaps. It's possible Cooper just told the pilot to lower the flaps, and the pilot was just being precise in reporting to the tower the exact state and why that wouldn't let him fly to Mexico.
This is important because a lot of reports quote the flap degree specification as evidence of Cooper being an aviation person. There's nothing that says Cooper specified the degree of the flaps. (on second thought, I'm thinking Cooper did specify 15. It's consistent with how the pilot relays demands from Cooper)
It's possible Scott later said Cooper requested 15 degrees. But it's also possible that he didn't. (I'm thinking in the end Cooper did say 15 ..see bottom here. But did he calculate 15 degrees as a Boeing engineer experienced in trim/stabilizer calcs, or did he have firsthand experience in a flight that opened the aft doors (vietnam/cia or ??))
page 11 and 12 has notes about how they can't take off with the stairs down...(I don't think Cooper asked them to?)
but then note on page 12 they say they know the plane has been flown with the stairs lowered
"MSP FLT OPS HAVE NO CNTRL PROBLEM WHEN XTNDD MAY BE SUM SLITE PITCHUP BUT ERY CNTRLLBL PLANE HAS BEEN FLOWN THIS WAY HAVE LARGE BOXES OF 2 TO 3HND LBS THRU THE DOOR IN THIS CONFIG MUST BE DOWN WITH LANDING FLAPS SPEED NOT TO CRITICAL ANY FLAT POSN BTWN 5 AND 40 AND SPEED TO 120 KTS DONT HAVE ANGLE YET BUT WORKING ON IT"
I wonder if the experience shoving two to three hundred pound boxes thru the open aft door, was from Vietnam?
So the tower was trying to work out what kind of trim was needed with the flaps, to keep the plane from pitching up, while flying with the aft stairs down...
But: Maybe he is insisting on a flap degree:
on page 12
"305 HE SEEMS TO BE INSISTENT WITH STAIRS IN 1 DEG" (typo? maybe 15?)
"MSP IMPOSS TO TKOFF WITH STAIRS XTNDD BUT FULL UTXXX UP"
"305 R WANTS GIRL TO INITIATE STAIRS AFTR TKOFF SHUD WE TIE HER DOWN TO STRUCTURE"
I think maybe Cooper understood the trim issues of a plane. If he was a laid-off Boeing engineer like I think, maybe he calculated the required flap angle with aft stairs lowered, to keep the plane trim.
on page 13/14 they note at 7:42 PM (edit: I had wrongly said 7:34 PM before)
that he's trying to lower the stairs and they have an aft stair lite on
they say they're 14 miles on V23 (vector 23)
So the aft stairs were lowered a lot earlier than 8:05?
page 16 is where they Stewardess Mucklow sees him with the "KNAPSACK AROUND HIM AND THINKS HE WILL ATTEMPT A JUMP"
they say indicated speed is 160 knots on page 16? and they're at ten thousand feet or are they at 15 thousand "indicated" as he says, and they're going to 10 thousand...The 15 is a typo...later transcripts with other towers more accurately cover the climb to 10 thousand.
So is the plane going slower than previously indicated? And Cooper maybe jumped before they got to 10 thousand? not clear.
"MSP FLT OPS WHT IS ALTDE"
"305 NOW AT 15THSD INDCTD 160 FUEL FLOW 4000 15 DEG FLAP GEAR DOWN CQN WILL STAY AT 1XX TEN THSD TIL HAS LEFT"
"8:01 PM PST"
(the time for an exchange is always last in the group)
at 8:12 PM on page 18, the pilot notes the oscillations and says he
must be doing something with the "AIR STAIRS"
at 8:05 PM on page 17 they noted trying to make contact with Cooper two times but no response. But then he did respond on the PA system.. so he's still there at 8:05 PM..
So there's a big 7 minute window of time where they don't really know where he jumped. The oscillation could have been from the stairs going full lowered when weighted by Cooper (as FBI testing showed) or maybe not
He could have jumped/fell after the oscillation..i.e. the FBI test had a guy walk out on the stairs, not actually jump (they used a sled for another test...)...maybe cooper hung on the stairs for a little while when he felt the plane oscillation..Maybe he jumped/fell 1 minute or so after the oscillation...i.e. around 8:13
still reading (I'm on page 18 of 99)
The new info for me was that the aft stairs were lowered well before 8:05...i.e. 7:42 (edited from 7:34)
So Cooper was waiting...waiting until he saw his (or maybe a?) desired landing zone before he jumped.
He didn't just get the stairs open and go for it right away.
Combine that with being able to see Portland/Vancouver lights thru the cloud cover, and it makes me more comfortable about Vancouver being the targeted jump zone.
snowmman 3
okay, if I look at
Amboy, WA, (reserve chute found?)
Heisson, WA (newly quoted witness)
and the money location on the Columbia at 45°43'2.88"N 122°45'34.55"W
you can approximate a straight line thru those 3 points. About a 21-22 mile path. so it takes maybe 7 minutes for the plane to cover it.
And it ends with the plane crossing to the west side of I-5, so maybe that's what Scott was remembering..being on the west side of I-5 as he approached Vancouver. Remember he was going a lot slower than normal so his memories/perceptions of when/where may be a little off.
So let's say as Cooper is standing there, the reserve chute rips off in the wind because it's not properly attached, because it didn't have the right D rings for the main harness, as Cossey has said. It falls and lands in Amboy. That's the 1946 canopy...sewn up as a training rig. Or maybe Cooper just tossed it when it was obvious it was screwed up attachwise, or he realizes it's just a damn training rig!
Then the plane flies over the house in Heisson, WA as the witness says.
Then Cooper jumps, near the Columbia and lands near where the money was found. He doesn't open the parachute (an open parachute probably would have been found, even if he stashed it..and he wasn't taking it with him...remember McCoys chute was found pretty quick, stashed in a culvert by a boy..these things get found)
So assume the money ripped off somewhat on the jump so it lands on the east beach of the Columbia or the water nearby...and Cooper actually augered into the mud on the west side of the Columbia river. Not as much development there. ..then or now...like the Sauvie Island area.
He doesn't land in the river, cause his body would have shown up. He just augers into the mud, and that's that. Mud hides everything. Remember that plane that crashed in the swamps in Florida. Disappeared in the muck.
There's been no development out there in that large area...so no one finds him..
Sauvie Island is 26000 acres. Note how it's a lot of water too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauvie_Island
Sauvie Island, in the U.S. state of Oregon, is the largest island along the Columbia River, at 26,000 acres (105 km²). It lies approximately ten miles northwest of downtown Portland, between the Columbia River to the east, the Multnomah Channel to the west, and the Willamette River to the south. Much of the interior comprises water; Sturgeon Lake, in the north central part of the island, is the most prominent water feature. The land area is 84.82 km² (32.75 sq mi, or 20,959 acres).
Amboy, WA, (reserve chute found?)
Heisson, WA (newly quoted witness)
and the money location on the Columbia at 45°43'2.88"N 122°45'34.55"W
you can approximate a straight line thru those 3 points. About a 21-22 mile path. so it takes maybe 7 minutes for the plane to cover it.
And it ends with the plane crossing to the west side of I-5, so maybe that's what Scott was remembering..being on the west side of I-5 as he approached Vancouver. Remember he was going a lot slower than normal so his memories/perceptions of when/where may be a little off.
So let's say as Cooper is standing there, the reserve chute rips off in the wind because it's not properly attached, because it didn't have the right D rings for the main harness, as Cossey has said. It falls and lands in Amboy. That's the 1946 canopy...sewn up as a training rig. Or maybe Cooper just tossed it when it was obvious it was screwed up attachwise, or he realizes it's just a damn training rig!
Then the plane flies over the house in Heisson, WA as the witness says.
Then Cooper jumps, near the Columbia and lands near where the money was found. He doesn't open the parachute (an open parachute probably would have been found, even if he stashed it..and he wasn't taking it with him...remember McCoys chute was found pretty quick, stashed in a culvert by a boy..these things get found)
So assume the money ripped off somewhat on the jump so it lands on the east beach of the Columbia or the water nearby...and Cooper actually augered into the mud on the west side of the Columbia river. Not as much development there. ..then or now...like the Sauvie Island area.
He doesn't land in the river, cause his body would have shown up. He just augers into the mud, and that's that. Mud hides everything. Remember that plane that crashed in the swamps in Florida. Disappeared in the muck.
There's been no development out there in that large area...so no one finds him..
Sauvie Island is 26000 acres. Note how it's a lot of water too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauvie_Island
Sauvie Island, in the U.S. state of Oregon, is the largest island along the Columbia River, at 26,000 acres (105 km²). It lies approximately ten miles northwest of downtown Portland, between the Columbia River to the east, the Multnomah Channel to the west, and the Willamette River to the south. Much of the interior comprises water; Sturgeon Lake, in the north central part of the island, is the most prominent water feature. The land area is 84.82 km² (32.75 sq mi, or 20,959 acres).
snowmman 3
oh I forgot you guys might not have poured over
the transcripts yet. You get used to the abbreviations and the XXX on typos. The first transcript must have been typed on the fly while things were happening?
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/library/dbcooper_transcripts.pdf
it's nice to see the cronkite/curtis news report from
that evening to get you in the mood of the times
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5wARW8FcF0
here's some weather info from portland on 11/24/71
The transcripts confirm the pilot reporting -7 degree as reported by the press, for air temp at 10,000 ft.. but it's obviously Celsius. I think the press misreported that badly at the time.
Ground temps were much milder.
I got it from the US National Climatic Data Center by going thru the pages at
http://www7.ncdc.noaa.gov/CDO/cdoselect.cmd?datasetabbv=GSOD
this says min of 45F and max of 51F that day in Portland.
19711124
48.1
8
43.3
8
1013.5
8
1012.3
8
14.5
8
10.8
8
14.0
999.9
51.1
*
45.0
*
99.99
999.9
010000
99999924229
the transcripts yet. You get used to the abbreviations and the XXX on typos. The first transcript must have been typed on the fly while things were happening?
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/library/dbcooper_transcripts.pdf
it's nice to see the cronkite/curtis news report from
that evening to get you in the mood of the times
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5wARW8FcF0
here's some weather info from portland on 11/24/71
The transcripts confirm the pilot reporting -7 degree as reported by the press, for air temp at 10,000 ft.. but it's obviously Celsius. I think the press misreported that badly at the time.
Ground temps were much milder.
I got it from the US National Climatic Data Center by going thru the pages at
http://www7.ncdc.noaa.gov/CDO/cdoselect.cmd?datasetabbv=GSOD
this says min of 45F and max of 51F that day in Portland.
Quotei have talked to Jo at length several times, there appears to be no evidence, thats the problem.
Just what do you call several times? You asked me to send MY research on Duane's background...what does that say? - Weber's background was never studied. The FBI did not even know that he used even a third name which I took from the SanQuentin file.
The missing yrs.? Who was he and what was he doing? Yes, I do not have any pyhsical evidence (that I am aware of) if that is what you are referring to. But, lots of circumstancial evidence...and the things and people the FBI could have found when I first contacted them in 1996 - who were still living and clear of mind - they were NOT questioned. Such as his sister. Now most have passed away...and all that is left are things they told me - because the FBI didn't do it.
Why in the world do you keep trying to mess with the time line? Over and over and over they have said that pressure change or oscillation occured at a specific time and it has been proven that only Cooper leaving the plane can create that...they even duplicated this with the sled.
In one of the early shows immediately after the crime a witness who was on the plane - said that Cooper had a "pocket-book". Not a retangular brief case as the media as consistently claimed.
In my early discussion with Himmelsbach - I told him about somethings that Duane had. I describe a medium tan canvas hand bag with leather handles and other leather hardware on it. Bigger than a shaving kit and smaller than an overnight bag...but may have been classified as one for 1971. When I got rid of that thing he objected, but I won. I would call this item a satchel. The bottom was from my memory about 6 inches wide and it was about 17 inches long and the depth would have been about 9 inches or more. It tapered up at the top and closed with a zipper with double leather handles. Seems like the leather was a dark brown. I do not know if it had a strap. This is from memory and it could have been larger...somethings fade with time and stress.
Is this the brief case or the pocket book the witness was referring to? I believe he was Mr. Simmons.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Snowman,
See my post 198 which was in response to a question from Post #185. Pull quote from Post #198 below:
I honestly believe he knew that Victor 23 was the only viable route based on the flight configuration he specified and he timed his jump off of the turn at the BTG VORTAC.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
QuoteThe new info for me was that the aft stairs were lowered well below 8:05...i.e. 7:34
So Cooper was waiting...waiting until he saw his (or maybe a?) desired landing zone before jumped.
He didn't just get the stairs open and go for it right away.
See my post 198 which was in response to a question from Post #185. Pull quote from Post #198 below:
QuoteSEA-TAC Heading 178° [Enroute L-1]
MCKEN Heading 178° [Enroute L-1]
MALAY Turn to Heading 150.93°(27.07° Left) [Enroute L-1]
BTG VORTAC Turn to Heading 175° (24.07° Right) [Enroute L-1]
Those two turns (27.07° and 24.07°) can be easily seen on even a cheap compass. Maybe not accurately enough for navigation, but enough to do what your body won't (sense the turns). He knows he's on V-23 (previous long post) so all he has to do is wait for the second turn and then jump.
To me, the key is: He knew he was on V-23. Then all he had to do was wait for the turns. My long post explains why (I think) he knew he would only be on V-23.
I honestly believe he knew that Victor 23 was the only viable route based on the flight configuration he specified and he timed his jump off of the turn at the BTG VORTAC.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
snowmman,
? ? ? ? ? ?
Don’t see a straight line. What am I missing?
See attached map image and .klm file (for Google Earth}.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
Quoteyou can approximate a straight line thru those 3 points. About a 21-22 mile path. so it takes maybe 7 minutes for the plane to cover it.
? ? ? ? ? ?
Don’t see a straight line. What am I missing?
See attached map image and .klm file (for Google Earth}.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
snowmman 3
Hi Sluggo...thanks for the kml with Victor 23
It looks like you have the chute find in Ariel, WA
not Amboy, WA??
Use Amboy, and let me have a mile or so drift for each point (to approx the straight line)
It looks like you have the chute find in Ariel, WA
not Amboy, WA??
Use Amboy, and let me have a mile or so drift for each point (to approx the straight line)
Quotesnowmman,
Quoteyou can approximate a straight line thru those 3 points. About a 21-22 mile path. so it takes maybe 7 minutes for the plane to cover it.
? ? ? ? ? ?
Don’t see a straight line. What am I missing?
snowmman 3
I saw earlier in this thread someone saying Cooper asked for the stairs to be down at takeoff..
He did not ask for the stairs to be down at takeoff.
A careful reading of the recently released transcripts confirms it.
The pilot/control initially incorrectly thought you could not lower them in flight and were debating the issue of stairs down or intermediate at takeoff. Cooper was consistent in saying the aft door would be open and the stairs lowered after they took off. not before.
Later when they finally acknowledged the plane had been flown this way before, with flaps down and gear down, and 2-300 lb boxes shoved out, they realized they didn't have to take off with the stairs down.
Cooper was the one who knew you could lower the stairs in flight. The crew/tower had to come around to that point of view.
He did not ask for the stairs to be down at takeoff.
A careful reading of the recently released transcripts confirms it.
The pilot/control initially incorrectly thought you could not lower them in flight and were debating the issue of stairs down or intermediate at takeoff. Cooper was consistent in saying the aft door would be open and the stairs lowered after they took off. not before.
Later when they finally acknowledged the plane had been flown this way before, with flaps down and gear down, and 2-300 lb boxes shoved out, they realized they didn't have to take off with the stairs down.
Cooper was the one who knew you could lower the stairs in flight. The crew/tower had to come around to that point of view.
snowmman 3
I've never parachuted before. But here's a mental exercise.
Assume it's thanksgiving and I'm up in Seattle flying on a 727 to Portland. I'm wearing shorts, a t-shirt and sandals and it's raining. Ground temps around 45F.
You hand me a random rig and I say "Sure dude" and figure out to strap it on and find the ripcord. We manage to get the aft stairs open, and the plane is flying with gear and flaps down at around 200mph.
I wait until I see the city lights of Portland and Vancouver thru the clouds. I flash you the thumbs up and run down the stairs and pull the rip right as I leap off the last step yelling
"Yeehaw!"
I guess I don't see why I'm dead. I guess there's a percentage of bad chute opening, percentage of landing totally messed up.
But if I get on the ground dude and can walk, I don't care how cold it is. I'm outta there and I'm alive and you'll be seeing me.
I can walk barefoot for a day in 32F.
The people who say "he couldn't survive in leather shoes" I don't think have really had to push the envelope to stay alive.
If you're breathing and not bleeding, you can go for a week with nothing else.
Hell, I'd do the same game plan outside of most any major city in the US, without even seeing the city first, and be reasonably certain I'd be back to tell the story.
I would not jump into the woods. You'd have to be really stupid to do that. You jump when you see the lights.
So why do I need to know anything more here? Tell me why I'm dead. I don't think I am.
I think the problem with pilots and jumpers, is that you guys rightly focus on safety all the time.
The thing is, me, I just wouldn't care about it..I'd assume you guys have got the technology sorted out.
I'd just go for it. I don't need to know anything.
That's why people have been able to do their first jump ever off El Cap. Whoosh!
Assume it's thanksgiving and I'm up in Seattle flying on a 727 to Portland. I'm wearing shorts, a t-shirt and sandals and it's raining. Ground temps around 45F.
You hand me a random rig and I say "Sure dude" and figure out to strap it on and find the ripcord. We manage to get the aft stairs open, and the plane is flying with gear and flaps down at around 200mph.
I wait until I see the city lights of Portland and Vancouver thru the clouds. I flash you the thumbs up and run down the stairs and pull the rip right as I leap off the last step yelling
"Yeehaw!"
I guess I don't see why I'm dead. I guess there's a percentage of bad chute opening, percentage of landing totally messed up.
But if I get on the ground dude and can walk, I don't care how cold it is. I'm outta there and I'm alive and you'll be seeing me.
I can walk barefoot for a day in 32F.
The people who say "he couldn't survive in leather shoes" I don't think have really had to push the envelope to stay alive.
If you're breathing and not bleeding, you can go for a week with nothing else.
Hell, I'd do the same game plan outside of most any major city in the US, without even seeing the city first, and be reasonably certain I'd be back to tell the story.
I would not jump into the woods. You'd have to be really stupid to do that. You jump when you see the lights.
So why do I need to know anything more here? Tell me why I'm dead. I don't think I am.
I think the problem with pilots and jumpers, is that you guys rightly focus on safety all the time.
The thing is, me, I just wouldn't care about it..I'd assume you guys have got the technology sorted out.
I'd just go for it. I don't need to know anything.
That's why people have been able to do their first jump ever off El Cap. Whoosh!
speedy 0
QuoteIt lends to my theory of why he wanted the stairs down at takeoff, which is, he fully intended to jump just after wheels up.
If this is the case, then maybe the choice of the reserve instead of the sport chute makes sense.
If you intend on going out very low, you want some thing that is going to open reliably.
Or is this assumption invalid with the equipment used at the time.
Dave
Fallschirmsport Marl
Fallschirmsport Marl
mark 107
QuoteI've never parachuted before.
...
The thing is, me, I just wouldn't care about it..I'd assume you guys have got the technology sorted out.
I'd just go for it. I don't need to know anything.
I'm sure Mr. Cooper thought the same thing.
Mark
That's assuming, of course, that that canopy was being jumped as a reserve. It was common practice to take 28' reserves and convert them to sport mains by cutting vents and slots, and adding a sleeve. Although the converted military surplus container would have a data card pocket, it would be empty.
But as long as we're hoping, we can hope that the data card is a personalized one. Some riggers used to print their own, a form of marketing or advertising. The card would last until the end of the pack cycle, 60 days, when the next rigger would throw it away and substitute his own -- no sense in advertising for the competition!
Mark
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