D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[bozo 0]

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Jo..you are not coming across as crazy but you are maybe coming across as a bit unreasonable in our expectations. You had led us to believe that you solved it - but now want the FBI to find something else.

and.....as has been posted before.....she has put Duane no where near a parachute nor jumping.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[Ckret 0]

Flo was interviewed by Seattle agents, Tina by agents in Reno. There was a second interview of Tina by agents in Philly.

Hancock was interviewed in Seattle and i'll post it on tuesday

Ratczak never left the cockpit nor did anyone else.

The only way I would interview anyone from that night is if they came to me. I believe at this point seeking them would an invasion of their privacy.

[Orange1 0]

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The only way I would interview anyone from that night is if they came to me. I believe at this point seeking them would an invasion of their privacy.

Do they know this? i.e. they are not all sitting out there thinking "I wonder when that FBI guy is gonna get round to interviewing me"...?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[ryoder 1,400]

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the FBI has never wasted a dime, trust me, I'm from the government and here to help.

OK, now if we can get you to say "The Truth is Out There", my day will be complete.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[labrys 0]

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trust me, I'm from the government and here to help.

That reminds me of a quote from an FAA guy in one of Phreezone's WFFC videos (paraphrased):

"I'm from the FAA and we have a new motto: We're not happy until you're not happy"

Owned by Remi #?

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

Jo & Ckret

Just nosing around on the net, I came across a statement that said the FBI showed Coopers ticket from that night. Jo, Didn't you say duane had this ticket? I am just trying to understand that statement. nothing more or nothing less.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Couldn't they also have pulled prints from said ticket?

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

Jo & Ckret,

Has Duane's handwriting ( or the other suspects, mccoy, chrisiansen, etc) ever been compared to the ransom note, I assume the note is still in FBI possession? Is it?

Ckret,

Is it feasable to use a plane and a dummy and re-enact the jump like people have said on a similar night? This may show some things even us seasoned jumpers can't predict.

[Ckret 0]

The ticket was processed for prints, Cooper took back his demand note so we have no hand writting from him.

I am working on having three aspects of the case recreated and analyzed; did he make the jump? if he did where did he land and how could he have gotten out of the woods in the middle of the night with no equipment? and how did the money get to the location it was found?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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and how did the money get to the location it was found?

Once it's accepted that the money did not get there simply by falling from the plane, with or without a body attached to it, then your question is obviously the next one to consider.

You can re-enact the jump, and I think this would be a good idea, but it will not provide you with any further answers to this question, it will only support the answer to the previous question (ie, can the money get to where it was found by falling from the plane?). I already answered that last question and the answer is no.

The way I see it, the next question of how the money got there is much harder to answer. The reason is because it's not a simple yes or no answer.

Now that you've told us they processed the boarding pass for fingerprints, can you tell us if this was the carbonized copy, the top copy, or if there was even a copy at all?

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did he make the jump? if he did where did he land ...

No offense, but if the FBI never figured this out back in 71/72, then we've been wasting our time here. This would mean he could have jumped anywhere! However, isn't it odd that the FBI concluded through testing and radar information from a US Air Force base that the probable jump zone just so happened to be in the region where money turned up in 1980? In other words, the guy didn't jump in Reno.

Now, if you want to argue that he threw some wads out the back as the plane flew over the Columbia (which can only happen if the pressure bump was NOT Cooper, and Cooper remained on the plane)... you still have to explain how the money only washed up 8 years later and it was well above the 1974 layer in the sand.

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how could he have gotten out of the woods in the middle of the night with no equipment?

Now this is a legitimate question. I think the best answer is as follows... I cannot take credit for it because Duane Weber gave me the idea. You will remember that while he was reading the only book he ever read in front of skyjack71 while they were married, he began to chuckle to himself and then mumbled something about the bomb actually being road flares. If I'm not mistaken, he may have actually said this on a seperate occasion to Skyjack71 (that normal people cannot tell the difference between dynamite and road flares). Regardless of if Duane was Cooper or not, I think his idea is likely the correct hypothesis for your question.

Let's assume the bomb was road flares surrounding a large battery... he probably does not have a flashlight to go with the battery... not unless he's great at hiding things, but he does have 6 to 8 road flares. Because he's unaware of the pressure bump, he's also unaware that anyone would be looking for him in that area. For all he knows, they have no clue where he jumped.
He lights up a road flare to see where he's going and is able to at least make his way through the woods. He'd have a general idea of N-S-E-W simply from when he landed and seeing the lights of Portland and the lights of Merwin Dam (which were very bright and close to where he landed).

Edited to add this next paragraph:
If Duane Weber's idea were to be true (bomb was roadflares), then he lands right around 8:20 pm. Even if he spends two hours gathering his composure, he would have about 7 hours until daybreak the following morning to get himself out of the search zone. Even if he traveled a paltry 1 mile per hour, he's moved 7 miles before daybreak.

Now a question for Ckret... were they able to get prints from the ticket or not? You stated they were processed, but not if anything viable was retrieved from them.

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

I have a couple of question about the "pressure bump" and the stairs. We have always assumed or led to assume this was cause by Cooper leaving the plane. 4 months later McCoy did the exact same jump and I have not be able to find nothing metioning a pressure bump in that jump. Why would one have the bump but not the other?
Second question the bump was suposed to be the stairs slamming back shut? Didn't the plane land with the stairs open and they got shredded from landing that way. I think that is what i read. Is that correct?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Good questions whuffo (though, you're not really a whuffo, are you?)

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4 months later McCoy did the exact same jump and I have not be able to find nothing metioning a pressure bump in that jump. Why would one have the bump but not the other?

I certainly do not have a proper answer for you, I can only speculate... perhaps there was a pressure bump or perhaps the pressure bump wasn't quite as profound since it was a larger 727 (though I wouldn't count on that). They also caught McCoy, so maybe the location of his jump was of less significance in the larger scheme of reporting and so we never hear of a pressure bump. I don't know... Ckret, any information here?

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Second question the bump was suposed to be the stairs slamming back shut?

No. The pressure bump was the stairs slamming back into the fuselage. It never locked itself shut. It slammed but remained open.

[377 21]

I haven't a clue who Cooper really was, but this is turning out to be the "who done it" mystery of the century. Too bad they don't have a Nobel Prize in detective work. Whoever solves this one would deserve to win it. The money find puzzles the hell out of me. The inability to focus on a couple of very likely suspects puzzles the hell out of me. Perhaps one of the "airtight" alibis that was used to rule out early strong suspects is just not really true. Cooper may have died in the jump. Terrain can hide things surprisingly well. I never found my freebag and pilot chute at WFFC after a cutaway very close to the DZ even though numerous witnesses showed me (by pointing to a spot on a field just the other side of the runway) where it came down. I and two friends searched for many hours. They have never found Steve Fosset's plane despite massive, intense and highly sophisticated searching. If Cooper did perish in the jump, someone should have connected a disappearance of a friend with the crime. People (even his landlord or mailman) would have started talking and speculating unless the guy was a total loner with no connections. I hope ckret solves it. It would make detective history. Vegas should establish odds and take bets

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Guru312 0]

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...
I hope ckret solves it.
...

Personally, I hope no one ever solves it. Never, ever.

In bad times of economic depression the sheeple need a hero to keep their mind off reality.

We need DB to for ever remain a mystery.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Cooper may have died in the jump.

377, I love your enthusiasm. However, using the facts of the case, it's been proven that Cooper could not have died "in the jump". If Cooper died, he died after he traveled at least 10 to 12 miles with the money. Please see pages 43 & 44 of this thread along with page, I believe it's 47 after Ckret posted the FBI map showing radar information, drift estimates from Boeing, and the calculated landing area.

Now, if we want to argue the known facts, such as how captain Scott recorded a pressure bump at 8:11, then we can all debate it. Personally, I think we can give it an honest range of 8:10-8:12 but I think this is already accounted for on Ckret's map. There were three lines on it, and IMO it would seem each line represeted 2010, 2011, and 2012. Captain Scott noted the pressure bump both on his instruments and in a "ear's popping experience" and he noted the time but did not note his location. The location was later determined using radar from McCord Air Force Base.

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo & Ckret
Just nosing around on the net, I came across a statement that said the FBI showed Coopers ticket from that night. Jo, Didn't you say duane had this ticket? I am just trying to understand that statement. nothing more or nothing less.

_______________________________________________

The parts that I held were the thin almost tissue like paper and carbons. Basically what I remember was a front part that looks just like the tickets of that day did - and the carbon - I can't remember if there was another carbon - if so that would have meant there was a change of planes or a two way....but it said one-way. I don't remember if the ticket also acted as baggage claims or how many copies would be in one ticket.

We need a stewardess from 1971 to answer this one.

[low_pull1 2]

I am working on having three aspects of the case recreated and analyzed; did he make the jump? if he did where did he land and how could he have gotten out of the woods in the middle of the night with no equipment? and how did the money get to the location it was found?

.......

one can stay warm in a dry parachute to zero F... im sure of it


but can one stay warm in a wet parachute to zero F??

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Warm wet parachute to zero F?

I don't think it got as low as 0 that night, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Generally, at that time of year, it might get a little below freezing, but not 32 degrees worth unless there's an artic blast.

Also, wet parachute? Do you mean it was raining hard? Raining hard or not... what makes you think Cooper would sit around trying to get warm? Wouldn't he be better served by getting on the move to increase his body temp? Plus, if it were me, I'd have too much adrenaline... I just jumped off a freakin airliner and I have 200k of cash. I think it would be a bit tough to stand still.

Here's another thing to ponder... unless someone later came around and found his dead body with the money, Cooper had to move a minimum of 10 miles (this based on landing area verses where the money was found, see pg 47)... if he moves 10 miles, then wouldn't it make sense that he'd do this sooner rather than later? After all, it's not like it's getting warmer and he's better off by waiting. I'm not sure how many lunches he packed in that paper sack of his.

[skyjack71 0]

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This particular information came to my attention a few days ago. until ALL of the information is in. If we can back up the information - believe me it will go public. I am not playing a game - some things take time to back-up. At least I am not going on national TV and have someone make a fool out of me...unless that is what it takes to find someone who remembers the incident.

What does he come back with "Take it to the Media". Why would he want me to take it to the Media?

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I am not just waiting for them - I am doing everything in my power to make the necessary contacts...I will say it involves something that happened over 2 yrs. prior to Nov.25, 1971. The FBI has the capabilities to do what I cannot do.

The research that the FBI needs to do is - check SS records - to show where Duane was working in Mar of 1968. To find out if certain incidents happened in that area in a specific 3 day period of time. I am doing what I can do - records that I need are NOT available to the public. This incident involved a certain individual and others in the company of the victim at that time.

If I went to the Media with what little I have then I would be made a big joke out of - perhaps that is exactly what the FBI wants - for me to be so humiliated if I was wrong that I would crawl under a rock and stay there.

SO CKRET - YOU SAY "TAKE IT TO THE MEDIA " and make a feeble apology, BUT, you don't answer my question about what you intend to do with that information. JUST ignore it. I have a holiday to get thru before I can make my contacts, but they cannot nor can I get into those special photo archives in WA. You can get access to do this and it can be done on a computer. An aid can do it. I can do it if I could get access for me. The file I need is marked "Closed"...but you know you can get it opened....if you can't then why is it "Closed".

Ckret - I am not disclosing on the forum what this is all about - I just need the help of the forum in getting you to co-operate with me. At least I would not be creating a lot of problems for myself by going to the Media. I can't live forever - and secrets cannot be kept forever. Please do this for me.

[awsee1 0]

Admittedly I've never understood the maps Orange1? posted of the area and where Cooper might have landed. A little much for me, but probably because I'm missing something.

The AIC made no secret of the fact that he thought it was probable that Coop landed in Lake Merwin and died.

I saw posts some time ago that called this into question, but quite frankly I've never understood them.

I for one, respect the work that was done, I just don't understand it. I know that Orange apologized for reaching the limit on posting jpg's and I realize there was a point to be made. Again, I don't understand it,things have to made very clear to me.

Is it possible that Cooper landed in either the Columbia or Merwin? Ok...ok..what point were you trying to make? Personally I think this is as good a starting point as there is, and needs to be cleared up. Right now, this particular part of the case is not at all clear to me.

Thanks

Bren

[skyjack71 0]

You have stated the below:

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I am working on having three aspects of the case recreated and analyzed; did he make the jump? if he did where did he land and how could he have gotten out of the woods in the middle of the night with no equipment? and how did the money get to the location it was found?

How I feel about this:
What is that going to prove? - what has been done over and over. What is needed is actual hands on investigation of the leads provided. AND answers to lots of questions. I have already told you about the money and I told you all how and when. I also told you all about where he landed and the contact area he went to ...and waited. I never told you what he waited for...why should I? You haven't believe anything I have told you so far.

ignored my post about the FBI going to see an individual for information. Checking out Duane's background more thoroughly - meaning reliable information such as SS records for Duane in 1968 and SS records for John Collins in the 60's and how he paid for 2 new cars in late 1971 or early 1972 without valid income. -The FBI has never addressed his employment with Pyramid Life Ins (the company who underwrote the policy for N.W.). WAS that his grudge - that he was terminated from the company because they found out he was an ex-con and that Collins was not his real name? OR is it a bigger grudge - the one I emailed you about - the grudge that involves the tie....and the promise of a new life and opportunities?

Why were all of the Pyramid Life Records espunged shortly after 1971? You have access to the SS - for John Collins - get them. I cannot after all I am not the widow of John Collins.

[awsee1 0]

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Flo was interviewed by Seattle agents, Tina by agents in Reno. There was a second interview of Tina by agents in Philly.

Hancock was interviewed in Seattle and i'll post it on tuesday

Ratczak never left the cockpit nor did anyone else.

The only way I would interview anyone from that night is if they came to me. I believe at this point seeking them would an invasion of their privacy.

Ckret,

Thanks. I look forward to the post. You have a point WRT "invasion", except that that same point could even have been made in '71 or 72'. N'est pas?



Bren

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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The AIC made no secret of the fact that he thought it was probable that Coop landed in Lake Merwin and died.

First, it was myself who posted the 50 maps and the explanation. It's a bit tough to follow, so don't feel bad. Ideally, you would want to print out every map and then paste them together to form the county of clark. You could then see quite plainly where every stream, creek, and river flows in the county.

The waters of Lake Merwin feed the Lewis River. The Lewis River adjoins the Columbia river several miles to the north of the where the money was found in 1980. If Cooper died in Lake Merwin, or if the money washed into Merwin (which would be likely given that about 80% of the landing zone fits tributary areas that feed Merwin or Lewis River) then there's no way for that money to float against the current of the Columbia and wind up where it was found. Who knows, money, to my knowledge, isn't very skilled at swimming upstream and maybe it just took 8 years for this to happen.

The other tributaries in the landing zone feed the east fork of Lewis river, which then adjoins along with the LEWIS river. As I said above, stacks of cash can't really swim upstream, especially with rubber bands strapped around them. For more information, please see maps 34-39.

Merwin Lake itself is like a double-kill. Not only does the money have to swim upstream, but it also has to go through the Merwin Dam before entering the Lewis River.

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I saw posts some time ago that called this into question

I'd say it's not even a question or a calling into question, it's a complete destruction of that theory. Now, if someone wants to argue that a pelican came along, grabbed a few stacks of cash, and then flew over to Tena's bar at some point in late 1979 and dropped it on the beach, then maybe that person just solved the Cooper mystery.... or maybe they need psychiatric help.

Due to size limitations of attachments, I cannot put the maps onto one big map and post it. The file would be huge... over 5 MB easy... or I would do this.

I will admit that the landing zone map I posted on page 47 is a bit challenging, because I did not show my work. I located two specific points, J & N which basically gave me the flight path range. I had to eyeball the northern range where it crosses the Lewis River. I used Merwin and LaCenter as easy landmarks to give me an accurate box. On that particular map, the box is light blue and the red lines are the flight path. I then took the southern most point that Cooper could have jumped and determined it was roughly 9 miles from the closest possible tribuatary. That particular tributary isn't very likely simply because it's on a farm, the land is fairly flat, and the creek *appears* to be dry for most of the year. However, it does feed into LaCamas Lake when there's run-off, so I cannot disregard it.

9 miles equates to Cooper having to travel at a rate of speed of 54 miles per hour. The winds were at the most 16.1 mph and they blew in the opposite direction.

Thus, when you take both factors into consideration, (landing area cannot contribute to the Columbia in an adequate way & Cooper cannot land in a proper tributary zone) the only logical conclusion left is that the money was moved at some point by foot.

It's a process of showing there's 0 percent chance of the money landing in the landing zone and making its way to Tena's Bar naturally, and then also showing that Cooper cannot make it to a tributary on his way down. 0% chance for the first, and 0% chance for the second. You're left with the answer that Cooper moved the money (or someone found the body/money and moved it without ever telling anyone).

I realize it's not only a lengthy process to go through the solution, but I posted the solution none the less. I told Ckret to print them all out and then paste them together if he wanted to see the conclusion.

Now we're forced to debate the question of whether or not Cooper actually jumped, where he may have landed, if he survived...
in other words, basically re-evaluate everything that has been shown to be fact both by the FBI and through my analysis using FBI facts.

I guess it's easy to start completely over than it is to begin pondering the next question... which Ckret already posted, and that is "how then did the money get to where it was found"

There's probably a million possible "solutions" to that question, but if it were me, I'd start on discussing the facts of how the money was found, how far below the surface, etc... basically things I asked at the very beginning. I asked them because I had always felt it improbable that the money naturally found its way there.... now I know: it's not just improbable, it's impossible.

[happythoughts 0]

How about this?

180mph is 3 miles per minute.

Could they be 3 miles off ?

Theory:
Let's say there is a slope above Tenas Bar.
Cooper survives and buries some of the cash 12 inches down, next to a feature that is easy to find later, like a big boulder. After a few years, there is some rain and it washes into the stream.

Normal stream activity could wash a few inches of sand over the top of it.

If there is a natural feature above Tenas Bar that would provide shelter, like a cave, or maybe an old hunters shack in eyesight range...

[Ckret 0]

SafecrackingPLF

We may have to put you on full-time, i'll prepare a batch of Koolaide, drink up and a few minutes later you'll be a federal employee. Don't worry, after you solve the case I'll flash the light in your eyes so you can have your life back.

form the recovery of the money, to me, there is only one option. Cooper jumped further south then what was originally thought to be the most southern jump point and the plane was just a bit further east than what was thought to be the furthest eastern point. This would have put Cooper landing in an area that could have fed into the Columbia and a good reason why he was never found, because he landed in an area out of the search grid.

Remember, the money was found bundled with the rubber bands around the bundles. they crumbled to the touch but where still in place. this tells us the money had to have been protected from the weather for the majority of the time it was missing, most likely in the bag.

The money was most likely in an area that would not normally feed into the Wasougal, however, due to the floods in 77 it was pushed towards the Columbia. the money, still in the bag landed on the beach in late 78 early 79, finally broke open, a few bundles fell out and the tides took the rest. The bundles, once covered by sand (the sand acted as a natural preservative), laid there until early 80 when Ingram found them.

What kills the whole theory the money got there the night of or just after is the dredging operation in 74. They put almost two feet of sand and clay on the beach. If the money had been put there the night of, there is no way it could have worked it's way to the surface through the clay deposit.

it could not have been put there just after 74 because the rubber bands would have not been in place. because of the condition of the rubber bands, the bundles could have only been in the elements for a year give or take.

So we should find the most northwest point where something could get washed into the Wasougal water shed (keeping in mind the 77 flood).