D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Absolutely excellent!

I will scour this over when I have some time. But in looking briefly, it appears that Cooper would have to drift NE once he jumped... in other words, NE winds.

The descriptions were good. It seemed Tina actually took a closer look (more time with him? Less stress and more attention to detail?).
Was there anything in the follow up regarding his hairline, thinning hair?
I ask only because people have postulated on this. Plus, we've heard that Rose was working with witnesses to fine-tune his picture (though I think Skyjack was going to confirm this or not). If Rose did fine-tune his picture, is there any record of other comments that may have been made while working with artist rendering?

Thank you much. This stuff is fantastic! That's a hell of a map!

[airtwardo 6]

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Absolutely excellent!

I will scour this over when I have some time. But in looking briefly, it appears that Cooper would have to drift NE once he jumped... in other words, NE winds.

The descriptions were good. It seemed Tina actually took a closer look (more time with him? Less stress and more attention to detail?).
Was there anything in the follow up regarding his hairline, thinning hair?
I ask only because people have postulated on this. Plus, we've heard that Rose was working with witnesses to fine-tune his picture (though I think Skyjack was going to confirm this or not). If Rose did fine-tune his picture, is there any record of other comments that may have been made while working with artist rendering?

Thank you much. This stuff is fantastic! That's a hell of a map!

Anybody have the longs and lats to Google map the area?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JSBIRD 1]

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I will scour this over when I have some time. But in looking briefly, it appears that Cooper would have to drift NE once he jumped... in other words, NE winds.

If he drifted Northeast, he had Southwest winds.

If he had Northeast winds, he drifted Southwest.

BASE359

"Now I've settled down,
in a quiet little town,
and forgot about everything"

[happythoughts 0]

The simplest solution would be to find a nearby Cessna dz.

Gear up 3 properly weighted dummies with the same size round canopy and a GPS locator.

On a day with similar wind conditions, take them up to 10K at the theorized jump point and push them out 2 minutes apart. Or perhaps circle around and just try 3 different altitudes.

See where they land. See if it explains the money found.

This would identify any unforeseen factors such as special wind currents around mountains.
It might also provide a more accurate picture.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Thank you... this is why we're on this DZ forum, I would have just "ass"umed the wind to his back, but then I just made an ass out of me.

Google Long/Lat? I don't... but you can see in his map, the area in question. I don't have time now to figure out all the landmarks on his map and put it into a google map, but you can see the flight path lines are all west of Lake Merwin (which is in the upper right of his map), the bottom right shows a creek that appears to be traveling SW but I'd have to look and find this creek. Just above the lower left, La Center is clearly labeled. I can't make out anything in the upper left.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I think you have a good idea, do like a mythbusters episode.

There's one problem though...

And that is, right now, *something* is incorrect.
It could be a number of things:
The altitude of the jet
The time under the canopy
The flight path
The time of the pressure bump
The location of the plane when the bump occured
The known winds that night
The theory that Cooper died

I will dig deeper when I have some time, but without really looking, I can tell you if the map Ckret provided is anywhere near accurate, we have a problem.

[happythoughts 0]

At Zhills, we have a guy who finds cutaway mains.

He has maps of the area. He finds out the altitude of the cutaway, the ground position, and the winds.

Using those items, he is usually pretty accurate.
Granted, he has done this in one spot for a while.

Anyway, that is why the idea came up.
Rather that speculation, push some dummies out and see what really happens.

Otherwise, we can discuss the "maybe" stuff forever and never get any conclusions. (That's been going on for a while)

[grimmie 176]

If the FBI wants to really solve this once and for all it will require a large budget and a few months.

Interview the entire flight crew. Again.

Stage the jump out of Perris Valley's DC-9 at the estimated speed and location. Throw out a number of dummies that open at different altitudes.

Comb the area with a large number of search and rescue types. Again.

Sit down with people like Jo, the mayfield camp, etc. that have claims of proof. Listen with an open mind. Sift through ALL of the bull.

Check out Canadian DZ oldtimers.

There seems to be a lot of wrong preconceived notions about this heist from the FBI's point of view.

It might not solve anything, but it would be a hell of a lot of fun!

[happythoughts 0]

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Stage the jump out of Perris Valley's DC-9 at the estimated speed and location. Throw out a number of dummies that open at different altitudes.

I don't see any value added by using a DC-9.
After the initial exit, there isn't a difference.

A Cessna with the door off is probably a better budget choice and more likely to get approved.

[dumstuntzz 0]

anyone know if coopers chute was steerable(single doghouse, tri vent ,single t ,etc),or was it just an unmodified 26' navy conical?probly wouldnt make much difference,but maybe it would influence his landing area if he knew anything about canopy control.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

My apologies, it was actually a 28'... I shot from the hip the other day without looking back at Ckret's post about the canopy size.

I second the question... was it steerable? My guess is yes, but more information would be terrific!

[grimmie 176]

Now what fun would a 182 jump be?
And I want to see if the lashed money comes flying off at 200mph!

[ryoder 1,393]

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Rather that speculation, push some dummies out and see what really happens.

Don't most DZ's do that every weekend?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[happythoughts 0]

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My apologies, it was actually a 28'... I shot from the hip the other day without looking back at Ckret's post about the canopy size.

I second the question... was it steerable? My guess is yes, but more information would be terrific!

Some people have mentioned 30mph-45mph ranges for windspeed. I haven't seen it referenced as fact from a source.

However, if you are under a round with 30mph winds.
"Steerable" may not be the correct phrase.
More like "YEE-HAW!" That would be hanging on for the ride.

If there was cloud cover at 5K, it would be dark.
Using todays technology, less of a problem.
However, landing a round in 30mph winds, with no moonlight, that would be tough to steer for anything.

[skyjack71 0]

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Plus, we've heard that Rose was working with witnesses to fine-tune his picture (though I think Skyjack was going to confirm this or not). If Rose did fine-tune his picture, is there any record of other comments

Florence saying she thought he was Latin - Duane was always thought to be Indian or Latin - because of the patina of his complexion.


With all that has happened in the last 24 hrs. - I have not one iota of doubt that Duane was Cooper....a couple of these things cannot be discussed in a forum but investigated by the FBI. Hopefully Carr will react on the information I gave him....if he doesn't SHAME on HIM.

The answer to the crime has been staring the FBI in the face for 36 yrs...but who would have thought something that appeared so mundane could actually be a red flag - and the pivotal point for Cooper's decision to hijack the plane in addition to his health and personal problems at that time.

I now think I can rest - I have done all I can do and I have all the proof I need. I found that needle in the haystack thanks to this forum.
LOVE to all - Ms. Cooper

Rest in Peace Mouse - You made your statement with what you thought would be your last few moments on earth, but you survived and you got it right and you know THAT BOY MADE GOOD!

[ryoder 1,393]

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"Steerable" may not be the correct phrase.
More like "YEE-HAW!" That would be hanging on for the ride.

If there was cloud cover at 5K, it would be dark.
Using todays technology, less of a problem.
However, landing a round in 30mph winds, with no moonlight, that would be tough to steer for anything.

"Steerable" on a round really just means "you get to choose your view while the wind takes where ever it damn well pleases".

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Ckret 0]

According to Cossey the chute was not steerable

[happythoughts 0]

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"Steerable" on a round really just means "you get to choose your view while the wind takes where ever it damn well pleases".

The Phantom Brigade is a group of ex-AB guys that meet in Zhills and do a static line jump on occasion.

I've seen them spot on the dz, one after the other.

Then, on the 3rd pass, the wind picks up to 10mph.
They get to see a lot more of Zhills than they expected.

If 10mph winds are more excitement than you need, 40mph would absolutely be an adventure at night.

My dad did a night jump in a mountainous area of N. Africa. He said the co-pilot got line-stretch and swung once before breaking his leg on a mountain that he couldn't see. That was with no wind or trees.

[ryoder 1,393]

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The Phantom Brigade is a group of ex-AB guys that meet in Zhills and do a static line jump on occasion.

I've seen them spot on the dz, one after the other.

Then, on the 3rd pass, the wind picks up to 10mph.
They get to see a lot more of Zhills than they expected.

One of the funniest things I ever saw was a guy coming down under a 28' round, when the winds picked up abruptly after he was under canopy. The landing was your expected feet-butt-back, then it started to drag him. He jumped to his feet and started to run around it to collapse it, when a big gust fully inflated it. Now he is on his feet running at full speed with the wind at his back and a fully inflated canopy in front. That was when he saw the fence.

Believe it or not the SOB did the most impressive hurdlers leap over that fence I've ever seen!!!
The whole DZ was in hysterics for ten minutes.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Guru312 0]

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The attached was created in January 1972 using USAF radar data from McCord, jump time of 8:11 PM based on crew analysis and tests...

Happy hunting

I am having difficulty reading the names on the map but it's obviously some very difficult terrain. Making a night jump from 10K on a 26ft conical into that terrain with the winds of a storm pushing the jumper along would be a definite adventure.

What is the name of the lake at the top right?

What counties are indicated? Clark and Cowlitz?

What is the name of the river south of the roadway?

I'm asking these questions in an attempt to correlate something into Maps.

Some sort of map "key" must exist somewhere in the record.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[1969912 0]

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Anybody have the longs and lats to Google map the area?

The map is hard to read, but this WikiMapia link should be pretty close to Point "B" on the map:

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=45.948285&lon=-122.545967&z=12&l=0&m=h&v=2

Lat/Long will be shown in address bar of your browser

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[airtwardo 6]

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Quote

Anybody have the longs and lats to Google map the area?

The map is hard to read, but this WikiMapia link should be pretty close to Point "B" on the map:

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=45.948285&lon=-122.545967&z=12&l=0&m=h&v=2

Lat/Long will be shown in address bar of your browser

I think I see an old rig hangin in a tree!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Orange1 0]

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If the FBI wants to really solve this once and for all it will require a large budget and a few months.

Interview the entire flight crew. Again.

Stage the jump out of Perris Valley's DC-9 at the estimated speed and location. Throw out a number of dummies that open at different altitudes.

Comb the area with a large number of search and rescue types. Again.

Sit down with people like Jo, the mayfield camp, etc. that have claims of proof. Listen with an open mind. Sift through ALL of the bull.

Check out Canadian DZ oldtimers.

There seems to be a lot of wrong preconceived notions about this heist from the FBI's point of view.

It might not solve anything, but it would be a hell of a lot of fun!

Don't forget that while there may be people on here with various theories there are others who aren't. I seem to recall that there was someone (ex FBI agent? can't recall?) who was so convinced Cooper died in the lake that he paid to have it dredged. Lyle Christiansen is another. And possibly others that we haven't heard about. Just because they aren't on dz.com giving their side of it they shouldn't be dismissed!

But coming back to your first point... a large budget and a few months on a 37-year old case where, whether he survived the jump or not, any suspect by now has a good chance of being dead (mayfield the exception?)... i would guess this case is not taking top priority in terms of either funds or time for blindingly obvious reasons... as much as we'd all love to know who it was.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

that is an ankle boot, not a slip on and everyone knows they zip up. Florence"s observation as to his appearance - Duane was often thought to be Indian or Latin - because of the patina of his complexion when exposed to the sun.


. Hopefully Carr will be able to investigate some NEW information that has been provided and that the FBI will authorize him to do so. It is only the matter of a few phone calls -- to the SS to verify employment and the local papers and police Dept to verify a specific incident -- and a phone call to undisclosed individuals.

The answer to the crime has been staring the FBI in the face for 36 yrs...but who would have thought something that appeared so mundane could actually be a red flag - and the pivotal point for Cooper's decision to hijack the plane in addition to his health and personal problems at that time.

They are saying the chute was not steerable, but Is there NOT another way that one can direct a chute???????????????
_________________________________________________
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I am aware that Duane did know how to steer chutes - he explained that in detail in Boulder, Co. during a paraglider or whatever rally?
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"Mouse is at peace - he is sorry about Minnie but he loved his munchkin."

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I've spent some time REALLY going over that landing zone map that Ckret posted.

I was able to find points J & N looking really close at the topography and figuring out where streams would be based on that topography. I had to eyeball the points where the flight path(s) cross the Lewis River. Then, using La Center and Merwin as guides, I isolated the area on a google map. The flight path isn't exact, but it's damned close.

I then spent some extra time (a few hours) pinpointing the exact boundaries of the tributaries. I was then able to take the southern most jump point and compare it to the furthest NW point that can feed a proper tributary. Now, this point I used, IMO is not viable because it happens to be located on a farm, and I think the stream isn't even a stream... BUT, since I'm not a professional, I'm giving the most amount of leeway by selecting this point.
I then used two landmarks on I-5 to calculate a driving distance using mapquest. The lines between the two points I used (Jumping & Tributary) are only a fraction smaller. It's roughly 9.0 miles from the SE most jump point to the closest (NW) tributary point.

9 miles. The elevation at the NW corner of the tributary range is 290 ft. That leaves us with a possible jump of 9710 feet. NickDG was kind enough to tell me that a 28' round canopy like this one drops at a rate about 1,000 feet per minute. That would mean he has just under 10 minutes, IF (and that's a big if) he pulls his chute immediately.

We know from one of Ckret's post that the winds that night were between 13.8 & 16.1 mph (using a knotical conversion). The landing zone map of Ckret's shows a SW wind. However, we need a NNW wind.

Putting this aside, with 10 minutes of canopy time, he has to drift 9 miles. That's roughly winds of 54mph.

In no place within the landing zone are there creeks or streams that feed south of where the money was found. To the north, the creeks there feed the Lewis River. To the south, those creeks also feed the Lewis River with the very southern most area feeding the east fork of Lewis. These all adjoin the Columbia in Map 50 of my post on page 44.

The question we can now ask ourselves is, was all the information the FBI got from McCord, Boeing, and the flight crew accurate? From the looks of it, they were fairly certain. It was only after the money was discovered that people second guessed. In 71, they put a lot of time and effort into searching that landing area... would they have done this if they were't sure of their facts?

In a statistical measure, looking at the variation of the landing zone... I'd venture to guess the standard deviation of 9 miles in the wrong direction to be around 6; essentially impossible.

Cooper could not have drowned in Lake Merwin. If he does, the money cannot float upstream. Remember these waters form the Lewis River.

Tosaw at least had a somewhat plausible idea... that Cooper landed in the Columbia River. Personally, I think this is impossible.... that is unless Ckret wants to go in and single handedly re-investigate all the radar information that was given to the FBI that night. The Columbia River theory also has some significant weaknesses if we can get beyond this... Cooper, his chute, and the bag of money have to sink. They have to lie at the bottom of the river for 7+ years and then the money magically float to the top and wash up just downstream.

Yes, many people have theories, but if we work through them one by one, we might be able to demonstrate if the theory is plausible.
Right now, unless Ckret wants to re-examine the facts and double check them...
Cooper did not die in Lake Merwin
Cooper did not drift to the Columbia River
Cooper did not land near a tributary that would explain the money found in 1980.

The only explanation is that someone moved the money at some point. If you want to debate the likliness of someone other than Cooper moving the money, then have it. I submit, the likely outcome was that Cooper himself moved the money.

Where he moved it to is a different question than the one I'm answering.

Please see the attached (distance). The red line on it is the effective drift line Cooper would have had to go on if he were to land on that farm, which is the closest tributary. Incidentally, it feeds LaCamas, and IMO, LaCamas is the weakest of all tributaries simply because the money has to float in the lake & float all the way to the southern most point of the lake... and it is/was highly used by fishermen who would have had to never see it.

Incidentally, if you think he may have landed exactly where the money landed, it's at least 9 miles in the opposite direction... he needs NNE winds of 54+mph, and he has to lie there, out in the open, for years without anyone ever seeing him. The money has to get there relatively shortly before it's found. The 1974 layer in the sand, from my recollection (and Ckret, correct me please if I'm wrong) was a foot and a half down. There's just no way this happens either.

Orange1, there's nothing wrong with everyone having their opinion... it's a GOOD thing. It's just some opinions are more viable than others, and truly, a viable theory should fit the "facts". What I've outlined above here, is as close to factual as it gets. Now if McCord has their radar wrong, the known winds are wrong, the altitude is wrong, or the crew felt the bump at 8:16 instead of 8:11... maybe we can argue as to the fact that someone has to move the money.

Edited to correct feet per second to feet per minute... no parachutist drops as fast as a speeding bullet, LOL.