Exit order

[RichM 0]

My apologies for starting what I'm sure is an old and tired thread, but I was unable to find anything by searching.
My DZ mostly puts freeflyers out first unless I'm the jumpmaster. I've been talking to people for a while and have probably 50% agreeing with my reasoning, but they won't overtly support me and if they jumpmaster they will revert unless I'm on the load. There is a small hardcore of people who just won't listen.
It is my aim to write a paper for my CCI explaining the reasoning. My goal is to get the CCI to give overt guidance and set dz policy.
My reasoning essentially consists of 2 arguments:
1) the well known one about wind drift affecting freeflyers less because they spend less time in freefall.
2) my other which I haven't yet seen anywhere else is that by the same process of wind resistance, freeflyers present less surface area to the relative wind on exit and so take longer to lose the aircraft speed and travel further fforward during that time. I realized this when I did a flatish exit to film a 2 way headdown (was never going to work, I know now, but taught me a good lesson).
I have also read Brian Burke and David Brownell's papers on the subject, and will include those as whole items in my "thesis".
I would like my paper to be complete, so I would grateful for any further reasoning or input. It would also help me if you could identify your "authority" to post opinions, but I don't mind if you'd rather not (e.g. dzo, dz manager, years and jump numbers, ff experience, what have you). Being only 450 jumps experienced, some of these people seemingly refuse to listen on the basis that they have so much more experience than me. "Yes You Get That" I guess :)
Many thanks for all input.
Rich M

[billvon 2,465]

>1) the well known one about wind drift affecting freeflyers less because they
> spend less time in freefall.
Agreed
>2) my other which I haven't yet seen anywhere else is that by the same process
>of wind resistance, freeflyers present less surface area to the relative wind on exit
> and so take longer to lose the aircraft speed and travel further fforward during
> that time.
This only works if freeflyers and RW flyers never funnel exits. It may be the case at your DZ, but at mine, RWers and FFers seem to funnel (or at least present incorrectly) over 50% of the time.
>I would like my paper to be complete, so I would grateful for any further reasoning
> or input.
As I agree with 90% of what Bryan Burke says on the subject I won't repost all that here. But in a nutshell, freefall drift tends to separate the two parts of the load if jump run is into the wind and FFers go out last. Vertical separation, as well as throw separation, is pretty unreliable. FFers out first can work, but you need to leave an _enormous_ amount of time between last FF and first RW (like, 20-30 seconds) and people are usually unwilling to do that.
> It would also help me if you could identify your "authority" to post opinions,
S+TA and chief instructor at Air Adventures for two years; currently SL/AFF/Tandem I, 2750 jumps.
-bill von

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Ask Kallend

• Quote

[diverdriver 5]

And for those who don't know who "Kallend" is go to his website on freefall drift. It is all mapped out there. The site address is: http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/. He is a professor of engineering at Illinois Institute of Technology, Illinois, USA.
Scroll down and look at the freefall drift links. READ EVERYTHING. If you want back up on your ideas. It's all there. Been mapped out as to why exactly FreeFliers first is an accident waiting to happen.
Chris Schindler
ATP
D-19012
www.DiverDriver.com

[rgoper 0]

**FreeFliers first is an accident waiting to happen.**
there are pros and cons to both sides of this issue. why do we really release rw divers first? answer: because we've always done it that way. ask around, talk to some free fliers, they'll probably tell you they have, on more than one occasion caught up to a 4 way, or 8 way at one time or another. freefliers, especially "headdown fliers" don't look beneath themselfs while in freefall, to do so would cause the chin to be presented to the relative wind, and at a high speed, this action will arch you out of your poise. now factor in a "big way vrw" group, after a load of "big way" rw group, who's going to catch who? at break-off, everybody "turns and burns" and we disscussed "barrel rolling" at break-off here a couple of days ago. anywho, all this b.s. is strictly my opinion, not all gospel. but, having said all of that, it's a issue that needs addressing, and i know how to fix it, but the dz's and pilots won't go for it anyway, but it's fairly simple, just do another jump run, and two releases, i know, i'm full of it, and crazy, and this is one of those things that ain't never going to happen, so we'll just have to deal with the situation the way it is, as safely as we can.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[PhreeZone 15]

There is no need for a second jump run unless the first one gets too deep on the spot. You can successfully stagger RW then Freefly out and not have and issues with drift. Freefly then RW is asking for problems. Vertical seperation is no good, only horizantial seperation is ok. So what If I catch up and pass a 4 way at 6000 feet? Another 5 seconds I'll be dearching to slow down while they are still falling.Since freefliers tend to open a bit higher, everyone opens at roughly the same time anyways. Thus... Vertical seperation is no good, only horizonital.
And no... its not always been that way since Freestlyer's at one point went first accourding to stories at the sampfire around here...
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[diverdriver 5]

Hey Richard. Take a look at Kallend's site. I linked to it a few posts ago. Do you have power point? Take the tour. It is a real eye opener and has really been hashed out by some of the greatest minds around.
"Catching up" to an RW group vertically (being on same level) is not as bad as having someone "catch up" to you horizontally (being in the same collum of air). The only problem that ever exists is when we transition from Flats to Verts or Verts to Flats. If you truly know what is going on it is possible to put the Freaks out first. But......we want a "rule" that will work in most (99.99%) of the time with little effort. That rule is Flats first, Largest to smallest, then Freaks second, Largest to smallest, high pullers, students, Tandems. I'm not lieing to you Richard. This is what years of thinking, practicing, phylosophising has brought about. But, down the road if the disciplines change somehow then this might need re-evaluation. But for now. The safest thing to do is to follow the rule I stated above. It's for your safety and the safety of the people around you.
Chris Schindler
ATP
D-19012
www.DiverDriver.com

[dove 0]

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That rule is Flats first

I wish that WAS the rule at my dz. In a word - disturbing.

[Zennie 0]

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down the road if the disciplines change somehow then this might need re-evaluation.

We follow the rules as you've stated them and we still have discussions about exit order. For example, where should a hybrid go in the mix? Should people strictly sitflying go out before the head downers?
The rule we've been tending toward lately is slowest to fastest fallers. With high pullers, tandems, students, etc. going last.
So I'd put a hybrid between the RW folks & sitfliers, and the sitfliers out before strictly head downers.
I've always sort of wondered whether group size with freefly is really all that relevant. Unlike RW, where you have a connected group, FF skydives generally are "unconnected" with the occasional dock. So the wind is acting on one person, it's just there are a bunch of single persons in the same part of the sky. In freefly exit order, I would think the more important factor would be the average fall rate for the group (unless you're doing a FF big way).
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[quade 3]

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I've always sort of wondered whether group size with freefly is really all that relevant.

It has more to do with how much time it takes each group to position themselves in the door.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[billvon 2,465]

>there are pros and cons to both sides of this issue. why do we really release rw
>divers first? answer: because we've always done it that way.
Well, that's not why we do it - we do it because it makes more sense, even though FFers often want to be first out.
>ask around, talk to some free fliers, they'll probably tell you they have, on
>more than one occasion caught up to a 4 way, or 8 way at one time or another.
Doesn't matter that much, as long as you don't collide. Heck, the _plane_ catches up with students on its way down, while they're under canopy - but since there's plenty of separation, there's no issue.
>now factor in a "big way vrw" group, after a load of "big way" rw group, who's
> going to catch who?
Again, vertical separation isn't an issue as long as there's horizontal separation. Vertical separation is notoriously unreliable in any case, as Bryan Burke points out in his article on separation.
>but, having said all of that, it's a issue that needs addressing, and i know how to
> fix it, but the dz's and pilots won't go for it anyway, but it's fairly simple, just do
> another jump run, and two releases, i know, i'm full of it, and crazy, and this is
> one of those things that ain't never going to happen, so we'll just have to deal
> with the situation the way it is, as safely as we can.
We do often take two passes, but I also agree that in many cases you can't rely on that (at boogies for example.) In such cases, where you have to get everyone out in one pass, putting the RWers out first gives you more separation overall.
-bill von

[AndyMan 7]

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We do often take two passes, but I also agree that in many cases you can't rely on that (at boogies for example.)

I stumble accross a message on freefall.com that says WFFC is going to try to segregate RW from FF jumpers onto separate loads... While this is obviously the most complete solution, is it overkill? Is it practicle?
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[sitflyr 0]

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Been mapped out as to why exactly FreeFliers first is an accident waiting to happen.

I'm uncomfortable with the assumption that one solution is best for every situation. I think that each dzo should evaluate their situation from time to time to determine exit order.
For example, at my home dz, we used to have just one group of five freefliers. Everyone else did rw. (We fly a King Air and jump run is into the wind.) The exit order was ff out first, then the largest rw group down to the smallest rw group, followed by high pullers, students and tandems. Because the ff groups were small and few, we always exited quickly. Then, by the time the largest rw group gave us a few seconds and positioned themselves in the door, we had a huge amount of horizontal seperation and were always under canopy long before the next group. We were consistently well out of their way.
Now, the dz has grown and changed. We have at least as many freefliers as rw people, and the exit order between the two disciplines has changed to ff out after rw. Since the luxury of taking more seconds between transition groups has been diminished, this makes more sense.
Both exit orders have worked out fine.

[diverdriver 5]

Zennie, what you stated sounds like a good plan.
Here's why biggest to smallest group helps.....The last Flat flier goes out....then the biggest Freak group climbs out....takes longer to get set, and then goes....you now have added some seperation to an already good situation putting flats first then freaks.
Make sense?
Chris Schindler

[jdhill 0]

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>there are pros and cons to both sides of this issue. why do we really release rw
>divers first? answer: because we've always done it that way.
Well, that's not why we do it - we do it because it makes more sense, even though FFers often want to be first out

It is also not the way it has always been done... the trend towards FF out first has happened in the last 3-4 years (or less), before that there was allot of the FF out first.
What about a cross-wind jump run? Does that not take drift out of the separation equation since no one is drifting towards another group?
Josh
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[hookit 0]

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Here's why biggest to smallest group helps.....The last Flat flier goes out....then the biggest Freak group climbs out....takes longer to get set, and then goes....you now have added some seperation to an already good situation putting flats first then freaks.

That makes good sense. However one thing that worries me about Freaks exiting strictly largest group to smallest is that the solo Freaks (I really like that!) going out last are very often learning to freefly. If someone is learning to sitfly then there is a very good chance that they'll spend the majority of their jump on their back falling relatively slow and possibly drifting over the larger group of experienced freefliers.
This thought makes me very nervous when I'm in the larger group of freefliers and I see that an inexperienced freeflier is following us out. I typically ask the inexperienced freeflier to exit before us unless they're planning to open particularly high.
-Trey

[hookit 0]

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What about a cross-wind jump run? Does that not take drift out of the separation equation since no one is drifting towards another group?

At SDC's Summerfest last year the pilots were flying a crosswind jumprun and I LOVED it.
The frustrating thing with a crosswind jumprun is that you have to re-train people on spotting. When you're on a crosswind jumprun the first group can and should leave the plane well before they're directly upwind of the dz. Ideally it should be timed such that the middle group exits the plane directly upwind from the dz.
It was very frustrating to see the green light on with the first group waiting until the plane was upwind of the dz to begin climbout.
I saw very few people landing off the dz that week.
-Trey

[billvon 2,465]

>What about a cross-wind jump run? Does that not take drift out of the separation
>equation since no one is drifting towards another group?
It helps quite a bit, although you still need basic separation to allow for tracking and accidental drift. We used to do that all the time, since we had to take jump run east to west (foreign country to the south) so on days that the wind was out of the north we'd have to set up 1/2 mile north and crab across jump run. It takes a _lot_ more time to learn to spot that way, since you have to understand crab angle, the change in the wind between uppers and lowers etc. Pilots who use GPS have to learn a slightly different procedure too - like setting _two_ waypoints for the spot and making sure they fly a wind-corrected course between them.
-bill von

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I typically ask the inexperienced freeflier to exit before us unless they're planning to open particularly high."
You raised a good point there Trey, my recent experience is that a lot of solo freaks (hehe) are also low timers and are prone opening a litle higher than some more experienced folk.
If I have solos going out before me (as you know I am a frequent flier solo freak) I drum it into them that I will be expecting them to open at a predetermined alitide, or they can go behind me.......Normally out of fear of me catching them up as they will inevitably flail, and or zoom, and I go fast...
Cya
D

[billvon 2,465]

>If I have solos going out before me (as you know I am a frequent flier solo freak) I
> drum it into them that I will be expecting them to open at a predetermined
> alitide, or they can go behind me....
Warning - you cannot always rely on vertical separation. A long snivel, an inaccurate altimeter, or a cutaway can reduce your vertical separation to zero in an instant. Even on an experienced 4-way load, opening altitudes (altitudes at which the canopy is fully open) can vary by up to 800 feet. I've gone out behind new jumpers planning on pulling at 3, and seen their canopies go shooting by me at 4500 - their habits overcame their plans.
It can certainly help give you more margin for error, especially if the pull altitudes are radically different (i.e. tandem opens at 5000, you're planning to open at 2500.) But the horizontal separation always has to be there.
-bill von

[nacmacfeegle 0]

No arguement from me Bill.....
"their habits overcame their plans"
Its why I raised it, newbies have a penchant for opening higher than planned.
"horizontal separation always has to be there."
Absolutely....
Cya
D

[Geoff 0]

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newbies have a penchant for opening higher than planned

and experienced jumpers who glance down and realise they've got a bad spot......

[rgoper 0]

**and experienced jumpers who glance down and realise they've got a bad spot......**
you took the words right out of my mouth! good point.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"and experienced jumpers who glance down and realise they've got a bad spot"
Not me, I've been to too many boogies in the boonies to be afraid of an off landing....I'd rather take an off landing than chuck a pc into someones face anyday.
And besides, glancing down to check the spot is something truly experienced jumpers do before they exit the aircraft.
But a good point nevertheless.
Cya
D

[kallend 1,672]

You can successfully and safely exit in almost any damn order you please, IF and only IF you know what you're doing, understand the dynamics of freefall, and are willing to tolerate folks behind you screaming "go go go go" while you wait an appropriate amount of time.
Otherwise, flats out first, large to small groups, followed by fast fallers, is almost fail-safe even if you don't know what you're doing. Putting freaks out first can work but there's really not much margin for error.
http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/ for a fairly comprehensive presentation on the subject.