SkydiveMonkey 0 #1 May 22, 2002 Just a quick question, if you get a bag lock, will you be pulled upright due to the drag of the p/c? There's no tomorrow - you ain't gonna live it for me - The Offspring Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #2 May 22, 2002 I am NOT positive but No . If I remember correctly, there is also the possibility that there won't be enough drag for it to seperate if you cut away either...Good question and I'm anxious to hear from the more experienced peopleOne shot... HEY!!! Mas Tequila!!!! Two Shots HEY HEY!!!! Three Shots....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #3 May 22, 2002 >Just a quick question, if you get a bag lock, will you be pulled upright due to the> drag of the p/c? Depends - with a working PC, you'll generally get stood up if you're light - that's 50-60 pounds of pull, even in your burble. Since many bag locks are due to PC problems/out of sequence deployments, often you don't feel the "standup."-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #4 May 23, 2002 I just happened to witness one of these a few weeks ago. The jumper was 220+ lbs. Jumping a synergy 190. First he had a horseshoe and was able to throw the pilot chute. He then ended up with a bag lock, I'm sure from the way the bag was spinning around during the horseshoe. In this case the answer to your question was no, he was not stood up and was still flying very stable on his belly when he cut away and deployed the reserve. He had no problem with the cutaway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #5 May 23, 2002 Last Wednesday, a girl who was on the sunset load with me had a baglock, and it did stand her up. She said she felt really out of control when she cut it away because she started tipping sideways and down and wasn't stable at all.Course I'm sure that she weights less that 150 lbs., so that probably has something to do with it as well.Turn off the world before you come to bed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ERICCONNELLY 0 #6 May 23, 2002 I agree - It depends. I had a bag lock about 60 jumps ago and the pilot chute was completely deployed and it did stand me up. FYI, I am 210 out the door and use a 21" ZP PC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #7 May 23, 2002 How much was the harness pulled up? Was it at the same level as under canopy or not? There's no tomorrow - you ain't gonna live it for me - The Offspring Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #8 May 23, 2002 "If I remember correctly, there is also the possibility that there won't be enough drag for it to seperate if you cut away either..."If the PC is cocked and a 'normal size, and isn't too worn out, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't separate if cutaway in the normal sequence....CyaDGravity Rat # 37Remember, we can do everything right, and still get hurt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ERICCONNELLY 0 #9 May 23, 2002 Not quite, but definately feet 1st freefall. I didn't slow down much but a fully deployed PC does provide quiet a bit of drag. I also had line stretch up to the 1st locking stow so there was "bag drag" too.E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #10 May 23, 2002 putting on Devil's Advocate in the sake of learning I agree that more than likely there would be enough drag to have seperation on a cutaway, but wouldn't it stand to reason that if there is not enough drag to stand you up (or change body position for that matter) in a bag lock that there also may not be enough drag to seperate you from your risers?Just trying to learn to be safer... If I'm wrong, tell me.One shot... HEY!!! Mas Tequila!!!! Two Shots HEY HEY!!!! Three Shots....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #11 May 23, 2002 Okay.......Put your rig on, disconnect your RSL-you do have one fitted don't you?- and cutaway, go on, don't be scared.Now, take off the harness and lay it down, open the main compartment, and grab your risers by the line ends, and see how much resistance there is to pull the risers free from your harness, in an upward direction. If they are in spec, see Bill Booths excellent writings on this...they should part with very little effort indeed.If you have any doubts whatsoever about re-assembling your risers and 3 thrings, have a rigger show you, or better still, try all this in the presence of a rigger/instructor, they will allay any doubts you may have..My experience of riggers is that they are normally more than willing to spend some time with you to show you how all this works, so don't be afraid of asking one.Then buy him a beer and be his friend, one day you will need him for more than education purposes....CyaDGravity Rat # 37Remember, we can do everything right, and still get hurt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #12 May 23, 2002 Okay :) I'll bite... you're missing one important point, and that is both you and the rig are moving at 120 (or therabouts) mph when in freefall. Putting the rig on the ground, one piece of the puzzle remains stationary while siginificant forces pull in the opposite direction (you pulling on the lines) and is not an accurate test.To test your theory accurately, It would be a closer representation if you pulled out your PC, have someone grab the bag and back up to get line stretch, both YOU and your friend start running at the same speed ,pull your cutaway (while both still running at the same speed) and see how easily it seperates. YES, I do have a brand spankin new RSL attached, AND I have attached my main to my risers and put together the 3 ring assembly :)I'm still not disagreeing with you BTW.... One shot... HEY!!! Mas Tequila!!!! Two Shots HEY HEY!!!! Three Shots....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #13 May 23, 2002 >I agree that more than likely there would be enough drag to have seperation on a> cutaway, but wouldn't it stand to reason that if there is not enough drag to stand> you up (or change body position for that matter) in a bag lock that there also> may not be enough drag to seperate you from your risers?A lot depends on your riser type and riser covers. If you have extremely secure riser covers (like the old Racer velcro covers) and the drag is insufficient to open them, and you have integrity risers, the risers will most likely _not_ separate. If your riser covers open very easily it won't be as big an issue, and normal risers separate more easily than integrity risers under low-drag conditions.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
polarbear 1 #14 May 24, 2002 Remember that at terminal most pilot chutes have somewhere in the vicinity of 60-70 pounds of drag force, which is the force pulling on the risers. This should be enough to cleanly seperate. If they don't, something isn't right with your cutaway system. It should require very little force.It doesn't matter if you try it at terminal or at zero on the ground. At terminal, there is still 60-70 pounds on the lines. On the ground, it will probably take much less than 60-70 pounds to separate your risers.I think billvon is right about integrity risers...they wouldn't separate if they were still laying flat against the shoulder (the rings wouldn't be able to flip through). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #15 May 24, 2002 QuoteIt would be a closer representation if you pulled out your PC, have someone grab the bag and back up to get line stretch, both YOU and your friend start running at the same speed ,pull your cutaway (while both still running at the same speed) and see how easily it seperates.No....This would represent a situation where there is no pull on your risers. If both of you are running at the same speed, then there is no tension on the risers (except the gravitational vertical pull on the bridle/bag/lines generating a small tention. IT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE PULL OF THE PILOT CHUTE.If you want to run around, then do your experiment but with a big not on one of the bights (sp) closing the main bag; you start running, and your buddy hold back while giving a 60 lbs pull on the pilot chute.Now, before you do all that and get all tired and stuff, try what the crazy scotman said, and see how little force is needed for the 3 rings to seperate.RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #16 May 24, 2002 what about a horsehoe mal? would you try to pitch your pc first? would you cut-away first? then deploy reserve? i have seen this very mal on a training video, the risers DID NOT seperate from the container. the diver had to literally fight with all his might to get the riser on the left side dissconnected, he never did get the one on the right hand side dissconnected, he deployed his reserve and saved his life. why he didn't throw his pc before cutting away? i don't know, it's a training video, the d-bag with the main still in it in this particular malfunction stunned me, it just hung around in the burble at a low spinning motion when all of this was going on. (there were two other divers flying with him, one of them flying camera, the other un-j'd his container to release his main pin for the intentional "horse shoe" mal) so don't count on your risers releasing just because you pull your cut-away handle, that was my "lesson learned" from the video. it was actually a video commercial sequence for "time out" but a very good visual training aid as well. a "bag-lock" mal, with pc out may well release the risers, and should. just thought i'd share that.Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #17 May 24, 2002 >what about a horsehoe mal? would you try to pitch your pc first? >would you cut-away first? then deploy reserve?I'd definitely throw my PC first. With any(well, a lot of) luck, the main might even open! Probably with more line-twists than the doctor ordered, but at least I'd have a cleaner cut-away.Erno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #18 May 24, 2002 Quotewhat about a horsehoe mal? would you try to pitch your pc first?Maybe its already out.Quoteso don't count on your risers releasing just because you pull your cut-away handleWho said that?RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #19 May 24, 2002 That's why I pack my pc so it can be pulled out by the bridle as well. I'd try and pitch it if it wasn't out - I don't want to dump my reserve into that mess if I can help it. There's no such thing as gravity - the earth just sucks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #20 May 24, 2002 **Who said that?**well, my name was on the post, so the rest is academic. and it is something to watch for. let's not forget (read my first post carefully) this was a training exercise with experiences jumpers. and of course we're all (hopefully) gonna attempt to pitch the pc first in a "horse shoe" mal. and how could you have a horse shoe mal with the pc out remster?Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #21 May 24, 2002 Lummy, the drag created by your pilot chute should be sufficient to separate your risers.Otherwise, get a bigger/better PC.To test how much drag your PC generates, try attaching it to a spring scale, and letting it out of your car window sometime......What Polarbaear said is right there is probably greater than 70 lbs force on your PC."I'm still not disagreeing with you BTW.... " Good! "both YOU and your friend start running at the same speed ,pull your cutaway (while both still running at the same speed) and see how easily it seperates"You try it, I have confidence that my PC will cause sufficient drag to operate my 3 thrings effectively in a Bag locked scenario, I don't need to run up down the runway as described above....I some dignity remaining..CyaDGravity Rat # 37Remember, we can do everything right, and still get hurt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #22 May 24, 2002 Quoteand how could you have a horse shoe mal with the pc out are you serious?RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #23 May 24, 2002 the only possible scenario i can think of that would cause a horse shoe mal, with the pc out would be if it was wrapped around your hand/arm/leg, other than that i can't imigine what else could cause it. enlightnen me, if you would please.Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #24 May 24, 2002 Yup!And exactly that happened to me on jump #13 (back during my IAD progression), went unstable just as I threw the PC at 3,500, flipped over as the bridle did a double wrap around my ankle, then the PC inflated - I got to learn what headdown was. Was a bitch to unwrap the SOB too, it openned fine though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #25 May 24, 2002 I think we are about to discuss differences between "PC in tow", and "horseshoe" mals, so lets not get upset over semantics......Each require slightly different input from the jumper to clear them.....Horseshoe- bridle (possibly bag too) out, PC in, if you know its there, pull and pitch your PC/bridle mess.PC in tow- bridle wrapped around an appendage or equipment, wriggle like a beeatch, and do the "get the hell off of me" dance......Varieties of the dance depend on what its wrapped up in. I've heard of guys pulling their leg strap mounted PC thru camera wings for example...scary....Either way, if I can't clear it by a decent altitude, I'll chop n go reserve....CyaDGravity Rat # 37Remember, we can do everything right, and still get hurt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
