CanEHdian 0 #1 July 4, 2002 This last weekend I ended up on a few 1st & last loads of the day and the pilot would throw in extra altitude for us. It was all good, until the last one of the boogie. Before this last one, we'd hit 17k+ and I'd feel nothing different, nothing to be concerned about. This last one went up to 19k+. In the plane I felt alright in the mind, drilling myself (foolishly?) with important 'awareness' questions. When the door opened I decided that I was in control and that at best, all I felt was some tiny numbness at the finger tips. When our group came up (3 way freefly - me on video) we exited. But as I closed in on the docked 2-way I noticed that they were blurry... in fact, quite blurry. I backed off (Murphy's law - also had a chin cup problem) and kept my distance. Blurriness went away a few seconds later. I still kept my distance and tracked earlier than planned. Uneventful deployment, landing, etc... I guess I'm posting this because of the 'overall' feeling that I had about the jump afterwards. The blurred vision, although temporary, has got me concerned that maybe it_could_have led to something worse. Anyway, even for the extra seconds, I don't feel it's cut out for me personally. I'm sure the effects are different and relative to the individual, but for me, my experience wasn't all that positive and could possibly have been unsafe. Just thought I'd share... Cheers, CanEHdian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #2 July 4, 2002 I've become very familiar with that feeling as of late we jump from 17.5 MSL. The numbness in your hands and feet, the tingling lips. After getting on the ground the headache and nausea. Well luckly the last 2 weekends I've been able to go to altitude without feeling sick and last weekend I felt fine after the jump. I know hypoxia affects people differently, like Derek doesn't seem to be affected at all, while I was ready to throwup on his lap the first weekend. I've noticed though once I'm out of the plane I don't notice the symptoms anymore, but that could just be the adrenalin.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #3 July 4, 2002 Few* healthy people get hypoxic at 15k, but 19k is a whole different thing. * Night vision can start to deteriorate as low as 5k, and there's no "normal", it's very variable.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #4 July 4, 2002 man, that's scary! glad it turned out allright.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECVZZ 0 #5 July 5, 2002 I went through AFF at a DZ that was at 5k ASL, and I would'nt even consider a jump from that altitude without oxygen. You didn't say if you had it or not, so I'm assuming that you didn't. I smoke, and I generally notice shortness of breath at about 10k. Even with oxygen, at 18k I feel as though the regulator could be cranked up a few litres per minute. BTW, you don't always notice the effects of hypoxia, and people don't all react the same to it. If you do notice it, it would be safer to ride down than to jump. G. Jones "I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #6 July 5, 2002 Dude...19K is just crazy without supplemental oxygen in the plane. Please don't do that. Live to skydive another day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 July 5, 2002 Physiology training is free, or at the NASA facility in Houston it was, and is very educational. It allows each person to identify their own specific symptoms of hypoxia. Everyone reacts differently and each person can react differently day to day. Here are some links: http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/cami.htm http://www.faa.gov/avr/cmo/coa/PH-TR.HTM http://www.lbhyperbarics.com/altitude_training.htm http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/hou/PH-TR.htm http://www.faa.gov/avr/aam/3150-1b.htm (This last one has a list of training locations) Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #8 July 5, 2002 QuotePhysiology training is free If you mean the alti chamber I think there is a $50 fee now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanEHdian 0 #9 July 5, 2002 QuoteDude...19K is just stupid without supplemental oxygen in the plane. Please don't do that. Clay... we don't post/share information for finger pointing and/or being called stupid... please don't do that. I understand that your statement may mean well and that you may care about my safety - if so, that I appreciate. Thanks for the info folks. Cheers, CanEHdian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #10 July 5, 2002 The scariest thing about hypoxia is that some people feel perfectly normal until they pass out! Reactions vary from one person to the next and from day to day. My reaction varies from nothing, to mildly stoned to really angry and it can change in a heart beat. You will never understand your own symptoms until you have experienced hypoxia in a controlled environment: i.e. high altitude chamber. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #11 July 5, 2002 QuoteClay... we don't post/share information for finger pointing and/or being called stupid I'm sorry...I really didn't mean that as a personal insult. It's a mistake that is made fairly often from the stories I hear. A bad mistake that can turn out really ugly. I encourage everyone that has the time and resources to visit an altitude chamber. You will learn a lot both about skydiving physiology and yourself. There are rarely stupid people in skydiving....just people doing stupid things. I know....I do them all the time!! Thanks for posting...I always try to share mine too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanEHdian 0 #12 July 5, 2002 It's all good Clay, no worries. I agree - it's not cool being that high w/o oxygen. The reason I posted was to inform others about the possible implications involved about "getting extra altitude". You see, when I got on, I expected the usual extra couple of Ks from the pilot... wasn't a concern until he kept climbing past 18K. I know now that the next time I hear about extra altitude, I_will_clarify exactly what the pilot has in mind. I will not assume anything. Hopefully this thread will make others do the same. Like Rob mentioned... you_don't_know the effects until it's too late - once you're hypoxic. For most, no big deal maybe, but for some individuals... As for me, I did_not_think there was a problem until I was out the door seeing double in freefall. All 'seemed' fine before that... hindsight - I know better now. Anyway, blue skies to everyone this weekend and thanks again. Cheers, CanEHdianTime's flying, and so am I... (69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #13 July 5, 2002 QuoteClay... we don't post/share information for finger pointing and/or being called stupid... please don't do that. What should he call a behavior that displays very poor judgement on someone's part? I don't know where you did it, but if in the USA it is illegal, and it is unwise and dangerous behavior anywhere. I think you are over-sensitive, the lives endangered included your own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #14 July 5, 2002 QuoteWhat should he call a behavior that displays very poor judgement on someone's part? It just wasn't in keeping with the rules of the forum, and in bad taste on my part. I went back and edited the post to crazy. A little less of a personal attack and I don't think offensive. That was just a reflex action and the first thing that came to mind. I was wrong and corrected it. No problems.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #15 July 6, 2002 Quotet just wasn't in keeping with the rules of the forum, and in bad taste on my part. I went back and edited the post to crazy. A little less of a personal attack and I don't think offensive. That was just a reflex action and the first thing that came to mind. I was wrong and corrected it. No problems... Sorry to be a bother but... I don't think you called anyone "stupid" (now changed to crazy). You called the action "stupid". It was a stupid action, no doubt about it. It was illegal, dangerous, and stupid. That's not a personal attack, that's simply what it was, and the fault lies primarily with the pilot in command. If the rules of a safety forum prevent people from calling an action for what it is, then I think there's a problem somewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #16 July 6, 2002 Serious question, what do you do if your on a load that when you look at the altimeter you just went over 15500? I've ruled out altimeter issues by looking around and the plane is still climbing.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #17 July 6, 2002 >what do you do if your on a load that when you look at the >altimeter you just went over 15500? Talk to the pilot; let him know you have a problem with it. I've done it several times when I have students. They have enough problems without dealing with hypoxia as well. Many skydiving pilots think skydivers want altitude above all else, and don't take into consideration that some may actually prefer to get out below 15K. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #18 July 6, 2002 QuoteSerious question, what do you do if your on a load that when you look at the altimeter you just went over 15500? I've ruled out altimeter issues by looking around and the plane is still climbing. Make sure your oxygen is flowing? FAR 91.211 requires supplemental O2 for all occupants of an unpressurized aircraft when above 15,000 msl, so if your altimeter reads 15,500agl the PIC has already violated the FARs. Not that I have anything against extra altitude, but 19k without oxygen - come on! (Pretty cold up there, too). I wonder what Chris Schindler would recommend... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #19 July 6, 2002 You might want to take a look at this report from the NTSB. www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001212X18819&ntsbno=LAX99LA190&akey=1... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #20 July 6, 2002 >Many skydiving pilots think skydivers want altitude above all else A lot of skydivers want the more altitude, skydivers must be aware of the dangers of hipoxia and realize its not a funny thing. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #21 July 6, 2002 QuoteFAR 91.211 requires supplemental O2 for all occupants of an unpressurized aircraft when above 15,000 msl, so if your altimeter reads 15,500agl the PIC has already violated the FARs. I know you don't have to use it, we jump at 17.5MSL (12.5AGL) all the time. O2 is on the plane, but I've never seen anyone other than myself use it. I think the pilot uses it, but I've never really watched since I'm at the back of the plane.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasterfaller 0 #22 July 6, 2002 I only have one question , was the pilot on oxygen during this flight ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #23 July 6, 2002 Are you asking me? Like I said I haven't sat up towards the front of the plane.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #24 July 6, 2002 Ok....putting in my two cents here without reading any of the responses. By the time you feel ANYTHING related to hypoxia (lack of oxygen in the blood) it is WAY TOO late! Your thinking and decision making ability has been degraded long before you can detect it. And everyone feels Hypoxia differently but the physical symptoms are common to all humans: numbness or tingling of the fingers or toes; floaty feeling; euphoria; warmth; cold or warm lips; numbness/tingling of the lips; diziness; blurred vision. Be very careful with altitude and no oxygen. It is not something to be taken lightly at all. A lot of it is caused by the decreased pressure in the atmosphere and that pressure does not decline evenly (linearly) as you climb. It actually decreases more as you get higher. So the onset of hypoxic symptoms will come quicker the higher you are. We refer to this as Time of Useful Consciousness (TUC). TUC can be many minutes at altitudes above 14,000 (the FAA mandated altitude for passenger use of oxygen). But TUC drops very quickly getting above 18,000. Above 20,000, TUC can drop to less than a minute. Above 30,000, TUC can be less than 10 seconds. And if you are a smoker or have any lung problems or aren't in very good shape, you will be affected faster than most others. BE AWARE! If you don't want your pilot to take you that high. Tell them to stop climbing! Or stay in the plane and don't jump. Chris Schindler ATP www.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #25 July 6, 2002 Kelli, Be careful with this. Above 14,000 MSL (about 8,500 on your altimeter) your pilot is required by FAR to be using supplemental oxygen. Above 15,000 MSL (9.5 on yours) the passengers on the plane must be "supplied with" supplemental oxygen. It doesn't say you have to use it but you are getting up in the very thin air and the pressure is dropping off at an every increasing rate. The pressure is needed to push the oxygen through the wall off your lungs into your blood stream. Without it, even a person with a "high tollerance" will get oxygen deprived and not think clearly. As in my previous post: if you FEEL symptoms of hypoxia, it is too late. Your brain has already been affected and you will not think as clearly or as quickly. It is a fact of physiology and we are not gods. Time and time again we have proven our human limitations. Lets not make the same mistakes twice. It's worth repeating here. This is the link to the NTSB accident report of a King Air jump plane in Hawaii that crashed after spending time above 18,000 MSL with jumpers. Don't let this be you in the future diver drivers. And don't be a jumper who hooks into the ground because they didn't think fast enough about it. www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X18819&key=1 Chris Schindler ATP www.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
