RWS User Agreement

[jlmiracle 7]

How many of you Vector Rig owners have signed that user agreement?

I am the owner of a Vector tandem rig. My husband is the tandem master that jumps the rig along with a few others that rent it from us.

We ordered a new drog, (4 weeks ago) but RWS refuses to send it (just told us now) unless I (the owner) sign a user agreement. I read it, and until I have a few different attorneys look at this, I can't sign it. I won't take responsibility for something I can't control (i.e. manufacturing defects, poor workmanship, etc.)

I understand the need for some of it, but I can't live with paragraph 3 and 4, releasing them from liability due to manufacturing defects, workmanship negligence on their part.

I know we live in a country where suing is some peoples way of life, and companies need to protect themselves, but this is too much. Companies need to stand up for their products if they believe in them.

It's time to put these lawyers to work on changing the laws on how, and why you can sue instead of making more paperwork.


Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 2,478]

>but I can't live with paragraph 3 and 4, releasing them from liability
> due to manufacturing defects . . .

Don't you use a waiver that essentially says your students can't sue you no matter what? Every DZ waiver I've ever signed releases the DZ from liability even if a DZ employee makes a mistake.

[jlmiracle 7]

yes, the waiver the student signs covers all manufactures, etc.

As I read it, if they send me a drog that blows up on the first jump, its too bad, so sad, we don't stand behind our products.

Had I known about this agreement, I would have done things differently, like getting a different manufactures rig.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Judy, I don't believe that is what they mean. Drogueshave blown up if they are jumped until they fall apart, but I seriously doubt that you would have a problem getting one fixxed that tore up when new due to no "out of the ordinary" actions on the TM's part. I guess the bottom line, though, is that if you want the parts, you are going to have to sign the paperwork. I believe the paragraph you are referring to is designed to cover the company should the part fail and the TM not react to it properly, thus resulting in the pair's injury or death.

Chuck
TM-I (Vector 2 and Sigma)

[billvon 2,478]

>yes, the waiver the student signs covers all manufactures, etc.

In that case, why do you have no problem requiring other people to legally release you from all responsibility, but will not release other people from responsibility to you?

>As I read it, if they send me a drog that blows up on the first jump,
> its too bad, so sad, we don't stand behind our products.

Legally, yes. In reality, whether you go with RWS or Strong, I have found that both people (Ted and Bill) stand behind their products. If your drouge blows up on the first jump, I'd expect that they would repair/replace it either for free or for a very nominal price (i.e. just shipping.)

[jlmiracle 7]

If that is what they are implying then that is what it needs to say.

I wouldn't buy a car or anything else under these circumstances. I know, oranges and apples, but this is not right.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jlmiracle 7]

If that is what they will do then that is what it needs to be stated in this user agreement.

I have learned to not assume everyone is a nice guy. I have been screwed over too many times by assuming that.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I have been screwed over too many times by assuming that.

As has RWS. Thus the user agreement. CYA, as my military friends would say...

I've never heard of RWS NOT supporting their end users if they ever had a manufacturing related problem with tandem equipment (or sport equipment for that matter...).

[jlmiracle 7]

If they put all these "implieds" in writing - i will sign it.

They are trying to protect themselves and I am trying to protect myself.


Mr. Booth (or anyone from RWS), if you are lurking - do you have suggestions, anything that would make me feel a little more warm and fuzzy about signing this?

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[PhreeZone 15]

Just a question... do you have in writing from PD an agreement that if their Canopy blows up it will be replaced? How about on the reserve?

RWS has great support and if you call them they will gladly work with you on this issue... but I'll bet they still make you sign the waiver.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,478]

>If that is what they are implying then that is what it needs to say.

So at every DZ you have ever jumped at, you expect them to not maintain the plane, to not maintain safe separation, to not train students etc? Because that's what DZ waivers say - they're not liable for any of that.

Of course, all that is just legalese. The RWS waiver is no different. It is to keep them from getting sued, and does not prevent them from supporting their gear and customers.

[jlmiracle 7]

that's kinda of my point. PD, Precision, Sunpath, etc. do not make you sign an agreement stating that if they make a defective product - its now your problem. Its because I feel like RWS is holding me "hostage" on this.

I'm probably freaking out about this too much, but the way this agreement is written does not make me feel good about their products.

How would you feel if you buy a car 2 years ago and now you need a new part, but you can only get this part from the manufacturer and in order to get it, you have to sign an agreement similar to this stating they are not responsible for selling you defective equipment. It makes you question the quality of the product if they need such an agreement.

I am by no means implying (seems to be alot of that in this thread) that RWS makes defective equipment or would intentionally sell someone something that is defective, because I doubt they could do that and be in business for as long as they have been. This is the first time having to deal with them.

One thing about their support - we ordered this drogue 4 weeks ago. It was not until be called them again to find out where it was did they mention this agreement HAD to be signed. I was never alerted to this agreement until yesterday.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jlmiracle 7]

I'm not a pilot and will but isn't plane maintenance covered by the FAA and not the airplane manufacturers.

I don't quite get the separation and student training remark.

Its the word DEFECTIVE that is freaking me out so bad.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[PhreeZone 15]

The one thing that is key here is you are dealing with The Uninsured Relative Workshop LLC. I'm pretty sure the rest of the major players have some level of insurance.

And my take on the reading was that they are not responcible for damages caused by a bad product (ie a drogue blows up and the TM does nothing and goes in) and not they will not support a bad product.

On the waiver.. I believe if they have a waiver on file they don't ask for a new copy.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skybytch 259]

Quote

PD, Precision, Sunpath, etc. do not make you sign an agreement stating that if they make a defective product - its now your problem.

PD, Precision, Sunpath, etc. aren't selling you parts for a tandem rig, and therefore aren't setting themselves up for the added liability risk that making and selling tandem gear involves. RWS has been sued many times because they build and sell tandem equipment. Hell, they even had to pay big bucks to get out of a suit that arose from of an accident that happened on a STRONG tandem rig! I don't blame them one bit for being cautious and requiring those who own and operate Vector and Sigma tandem rigs to sign a very thorough user agreement.

Like bill said earlier in this thread - if you require your students to sign a waiver that absolves your dz and instructors of any liability even if the instructor or dz is negligent... I don't understand why you have a problem with RWS covering their ass in the same manner.

[billvon 2,478]

>I'm not a pilot and will but isn't plane maintenance covered by the
> FAA and not the airplane manufacturers.

Yes. Rig maintenance is covered by the FAA too, and is generally not done by the rig manufacturers. But we're not talking about what the FAA requires - we are talking about what you require in a waiver.

I assume that you use a waiver for your students, and that the waiver contains language that claims you are not responsible for whatever injury they sustain. Does this mean you don't care about their safety? Will you give them faulty harnesses because they signed that waiver? Are they nuts to trust you, given that you force them to sign a document that says they can't trust you to keep them safe?

I assume that is not the case - that your DZ tries to conduct tandems as safely as possible, and that you are responsible enough to do things (like replacing goggles periodically) to ensure they have a safe and enjoyable jump. I assume further that you use the waiver so someone is less likely to sue you for ten million dollars when they trip on landing and break their wrist. RWS is no different. They want you to sign the waiver so you don't sue them for ten million dollars when a tandem goes in one day.

If you truly believe that a waiver should reflect what people should expect, get rid of your student waiver and replace it with a guarantee that "we will try our best to keep you safe." If you'd rather have the legal protection of a waiver, don't be suprised when other people desire the same thing.

[cobaltdan 0]

"I'm pretty sure the rest of the major players have some level of insurance. "

actually the lawyer rws uses gave a seminar at the last pia symposium explaining the theory behind adding uninsured to your company name. in a trial it is not allowed to tell the jury if you are insured or not as this may influence their decision. but you can not hide your name....

for the record parachute equipment is uninsurable. and even there was product liability for parachute equipment it wouldn't matter as 99.9% of accidents occur on properly made equipment. product liability insurance does not cover the manufacturer for anything other than defectly manufactured product.....not poor piloting, not improper maintenance, not improper training, etc...

jlmiracle, i think you are over reacting, how did you ever get to be a tandem master? have you not read any of the dozens of disclaimers you already have had to sign to get to this point in the sport?

another interesting point of legality is if you institute a legal case. i.e. you sue a dz for breaking your leg on landing. even if you didn't sign their disclaimer somehow, the opposing attorney will submit ever other disclaimer from every other dz in the world you signed (dz's never throw them out) to show you were aware of and accepted the possibilities.

rws is a solid company and stands behind their products.

sincerely,

dan<><>
atair

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[lowpull 0]

Unfortunately,lawsuits ARE a big part of our sport. (The Pappadato incident is still fresh in my mind).
All RWS wants is to make sure their asses are covered on EVERY legal front pertaining to their gear, and how their systems are used.

AND, since the exemption is gone, you can basically bastardize their gear and still expect them to defend themselves in a lawsuit.Mr Booth himself has said to me that every system they sell is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Sad, but true.
Technically speaking, you can stick any main or reserve in a Tandem Vector and jump. Will it work? Maybe.
Will the original parts and equiptment specifically designed and tested work better? Definitely!

When you go putting a hodgepodge of gear together ,(and a lot of people do) you HAVE to expect RWS to do everything in their power to protect themselves.


As far as the 4 week wait, I know for a fact that most of the staff has been gone recently to Rantoul.They need time off too.

I am sure if you sign the agreement and have a problem with the drogue, the fine folks in Deland will make it right.




Good luck,,,,,,,







Ralph Nichols

[jlmiracle 7]

thank you all for your replies.
I'm going to think about this for a while. Probably will just sell the rig. I'm not asking RWS to take all liability. I don't have a problem with most of the waiver. There are just certain parts of the waiver that I am very uncomfortable with (DEFECT IN WORKMANSHIP OR MANUFACTURING).

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[skymedic 0]

Judy....why dont you call URWS and talk to Bill him self. I have never had a problem getting him to answer any question I've needed answered. even one time I got advice from him on a rig he didn't even make.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[riggerrob 563]

"defects in materials and workmanship" is just legalese to discourage lawyers.
All reputable parachute manufacturers will quickly and quietly replace defective components at little or no charge to the customer.

The "Uninsured Relativeworkshop" asked you to sign a waiver that has nothing to do with quality.
This waiver is all about the sick, twisted, perverted, demented American legal system. Under American law (it is worse in Southern California and down-right obscene in New South Wales) it does not matter whose error led to the accident. Like cobaltdan said. 99.9% of skydiving accidents occurr with perfectly manufactured equipment. American lawyers start by suing anyone vaguely connected to the accident. Once they determine who is the wealthiest defendant, they go straight for the deep pocket.

Most parachute manufacturers do not carry liability insurance for 2 reasons. First it is almost impossible to obtain liability insurance for parachutes. Secondly, insurance just makes manufacturers more attractive targets for unscrupulous lawyers.
For example, when I worked for Rigging Innovations, a lawyer phoned us becassue his client had done something stupid while wearing a Telesis student harness that we built and she had broken her leg. The lawyer asked for the name of R.I.'s liability insurance underwriter. Sandy Reid replied "R.I. doesn't have any liability insurance." After a couple more fruitless phone calls, the lawyer gave up.

If you bother to read the owner's manuals for most skydiving gear, you will find similar statements that passively limit manufacturer's liability. If you are not willing to sign the Uninsured Relativeworkshop's" waiver, then I suggest you find another sport, because most of the other manufacturers have similar policies.
Now get over it.

[jlmiracle 7]

riggerrob says "I suggest you find another sport because most of the other manufacturers have similar policies. Now get over it. "

No other manufacturer that I have dealt with has had me sign an agreement to get parts.

Granted I've only been jumping since 1996 but your tact, wisdom, and direction is greatly appreciated.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[riggerrob 563]

Yes, my "tact, wisdom and direction" have resulted in me not being invited back to more than one DZ.

[christoofar 0]

Maybe RWS's agreement could be amended to include the official return policy?

An an aside, who is liable if the rig or parts are damaged in shipment on the way to the tandem fact... er DZ? Or perhaps maybe some sewing is askew? I certainly would not buy a rig nor parts sight-unseen, with no possible recourse if I received damaged goods. Would you? Think RMA.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[fasterfaller 0]

I would not worry about the quality of anything coming from RWS .