AFF Pull Signal

[markbaur 0]

Quote

If you tell them on the dirt dive that 2 thumbs up means pull then thats what they will do, its all about the dirt dive.

Perhaps your experience is different than mine. Under stress, most folks revert to previous training. Twenty or thirty years of previous training for the one-finger signal is "look at that!" And if you tell a student that "thumbs up" means "pull" you run a very high risk of them thinking this freefall stuff is swimmingly fine when what you want is an end to the freefall.

What we need is a set of signals that builds from known (previous non-skydiving experience) to unknown (what the signal means in freefall).

The initial signal set should be small, to reduce the amount of decoding a first jump student needs to do, although additional signals (like "toe taps") might be added on later jumps. Most first jump students would do just fine knowing only three hand signals (hips down, extend legs, pull), plus alti tap. We can fix the arms and wide legs on the next jump if we need to, when the student is more responsive.

Related actions should have related signals. We already have that with "extend legs" and "bend knees." We could have that with open palm for "touch ripcord" and fist for "grab ripcord."

Mark

[Hooknswoop 19]

I agree Mark. I don't use a PHT/PRCP signal. If they forget to touch their handle, I put their hand on it and they remember. Maybe it is time to make an attempt to make hand signals universal and uniform between DZ's?

Hook

[rgoper 0]

Quote

Maybe it is time to make an attempt to make hand signals universal and uniform between DZ's?

i'm in total agreement with that! but how the weck would you get it done? we can't even get all the DZO's to go with the same training programs, let alone signals.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[markbaur 0]

Quote

Maybe it is time to make an attempt to make hand signals universal and uniform between DZ's?

Not yet. Standardization inhibits innovation.

We don't need standardization between DZs, since we discourage students from DZ-hopping, and instructors are savvy enough to adapt to the students' signal set.

We need to continue experimenting to see what works: more hand signals (for greater variety of info transmitted), fewer (less complexity), different (looking for better, more intuitive transfer of information).

Mark

[PhreeZone 15]

>different (looking for better, more intuitive transfer of information).

Something that came up a few weeks ago and would solve a lot of these issues is a verbal system. Use of a in helmet radio system to communicate the signals would take the hand signals out of it.

Side note... how would you give hand signals to a blind person?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[riggerrob 558]

That's odd, Canadian PFF instructors use "tongue out" as a relax signal. Every time I have stuck my tongue out during a dirt dive, the student has giggled.
Markbaur is right in trying to link AFF signals with previous learning.

[dida 0]

the SIM lists these as "common" aff hand signals:

a. thumb down: hips more forward (pelvis down)
b. first two straight fingers in a V: extend legs
c. monkey paw (half fist, thumb on top), three fin-gers, or tap the deployment handle: practice pulls
d. an “O” formed with one hand or a tap on the
altimeter: circle of awareness
e. index finger extended, typically pointing at the
student or the ripcord: pull
f. shake limp hand: relax
g. open hand (from fist): let go

Note: Limit hand signals to those six or seven that may be required based on observation during the student’s training. Additional hand signals can be introduced during subsequent training. For example,
perfecting a student’s arm position may be of low relative importance during the first jump.

i had an experience with conflicting hand signals as i did my aff in australia (fist = pull) and did a recurrency at the ranch (pointed finger = pull). it is CRITICAL when doing student or recurrency jumps at different drop zones that these signals are reviewed and DRILLED before jumping with an instructor. yes...it would be nice if things were consistent, but as they are not, do everything you can to be informed and aware.

spiral out...keep going...

[gale 0]

Really interesting discussion. We didn't use nearly as many signals when I went through PFF. If a student doesn't know their altitude the instructor shakes you - that wakes you up - hard to misinterperret. If he wants you to arch more he taps (hits, whatever) so you can feel it on your back. These issues are resolved before moving on to levels where you are released.

It seems like 10 signals would be really confusing! I know how overwhelming it is just being up there let alone learning a whole new language.

By the way, we don't have a pull signal. If they don't think you're going to pull, they pull for you, but if you see them track away (higher levels) then that's the pull signal. Same for coach dives.

Gale

I'm drowning...so come inside
Welcome to my...dirty mind

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>Something that came up a few weeks ago and would solve a lot of these
>issues is a verbal system. Use of a in helmet radio system to communicate
> the signals would take the hand signals out of it.

I've been talking students down on radio for a couple of years, and frequently the students can't hear the radio even under canopy. Either their ears haven't equalized the pressure or their brain isn't taking in the signals their ears have to offer... The radios in these cases work quite well before take-off, on the plane and after landing, so it's not equipment failure.

Now if the students have trouble hearing the instructions under canopy, I really don't think they could hear/understand anything in freefall.

Erno

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Maybe it is time to make an attempt to make hand signals universal and uniform between DZ's?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not yet. Standardization inhibits innovation.

We don't need standardization between DZs, since we discourage students from DZ-hopping, and instructors are savvy enough to adapt to the students' signal set.

We need to continue experimenting to see what works: more hand signals (for greater variety of info transmitted), fewer (less complexity), different (looking for better, more intuitive transfer of information).

Very true. There are only so many possibilites and I figure probably all of them have been tried. So what works and what doesn't? What signals do we really need? I have found that on later levels looking at my own altimeter is the best "Check altitude" signal there is. It bypasses them having to see me, reconize what signal I am giving them, translate that signal into what it means, then do it.

Radios in free fall wouldn't work very well I think. Just like when the radio is working great until w/ in 100 ft of the ground and they can't hear it anynore. The radio is still working the same but their stress level doesn't allow them to hear it anymore.

Hook

[rgoper 0]

Quote

The radio is still working the same but their stress level doesn't allow them to hear it anymore.

mine used to just "cut itself off" when i was in the AFP program! never could figure out what was wrong with it!!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Merrick 0]

Quote

Not yet. Standardization inhibits innovation."

I disagree... it's as cut and dry as penalty signals referees use in football to communicate why they threw their little yellow flag. Standardization in this case is just what we need. First, we need to start looking at the big picture, and get past students & jump schools. What happens when at 1000 jumps you're at the WFFC on a 40 way, or doing sit-transitions with a buddy and he/she, or someone, starts frantically pointing at you in freefall because your right riser is out of the container flopping around? Now if you've been jumping at one of these few DZ's that use a closed fist for a pull signal since you were a student, when the rest of the world is using the 'finger' no telling what you'll do or how you'll react. What about people like me who are lingering in between being in-experienced & experienced, just starting to get on good loads, and really learning a lot at a mere 90 jumps.... if I'm in the air f**king up, and someone gives me a legs out signal, I'm going to do what they tell me. Pam & I didn't even go thru AFF we took the IAD route, but I made sure I learned the AFF signals as well just for jumping with others... that way they can help me and I can help them if I'm ever in a situation where I can. If someone were ever to stick a fist in my face in freefall I wouldn't know what in the hell they wanted.... and I'm guessing there are several others out there who feel the same.

A standard set of signals throughout all skydiving organizations is exactly what we need, that way there's never any question about what you should do.

Blues!

Merrick

[PhreeZone 15]

No one should be giving you hand signals in the middle of a formation to start with unless its the pull one. The reason is for the one you just mentioned... different lessons through out the ages. Old timers never heard of AFF so signals are useless to them. Legs out to one person that might have trained at *insert far remote country* might have been something that could be a pull signal other places. On RW unless its 2 ways signals are bad. The time for coaching is on the ground not in the middle of turning points on a 4 way.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[vidiot 0]

Quote

Use of a in helmet radio system to communicate the signals would take the hand signals out of it.

Stress research [Ungerer '97] found hearing to be the first sense to 'shut off' in high-stress situations...

My Logbook

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Stress research [Ungerer '97] found hearing to be the first sense to 'shut off' in high-stress situations...

I remember reading something about that. It explains why at landing the student can no longer hear the radio.

Hook

[PhreeZone 15]

I'm not saying its a good idea, but different. Probally why some people shut off the radio in their car when looking for addresses on a street too...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Merrick 0]

Sorry, guess I should have been more clear, I wasn't sugesting that it's OK to throw out hand signals in the midst of a 40 way... at that point I was thinking of 2 & 4-way coaching/learning dives. And, I was referring more to the pull signal than any other.... in fact, that's really the only signal I've ever seen in freefall.

Blues!

Merrick

[drenaline 0]

I agree with you mark, the thumbs up comment was some sort of example to say that if you teach that on the dirt dive then that is the signal the student will be waiting for the pull. I never meant that the 2 thumbs up should be used.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[markbaur 0]

Quote

I agree with you mark, the thumbs up comment was some sort of example to say that if you teach that on the dirt dive then that is the signal the student will be waiting for the pull.

Actually, I think we disagree.

If you teach "thumbs up" as a pull signal, sometimes students will pull when you give "thumbs up" and sometimes students will continue skydiving because you've used a signal which for their entire pre-skydiving experience has meant "you're doing great!" Can you see the parallel argument about using a pointing gesture to mean something radically different than the common meaning?

Mark

[drenaline 0]

dude its just an example... 80% of the students will do what you told them on land before boarding the plane, if you tell him that a closed fist will mean to pull then thats what he will do when he sees the closed fist. If another instructor teaches another student that he should pull when he sees his index finger pointing at him, then thats what the student will do after seen the finger pointing. Its all about the dirt dive. Just in case: I am not saying that the thumbs up should be teached as a pull signal.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Sebazz1 2]

How many times have you given the peace signal to some one and they stuck their legs out? No they usually just give a peace signal back to you

Whatever you train on the ground they will look for in the sky. The pointing pull signal has not been a problem for me or my students. If I started training a closed fist in the next FJC it would probably go over just as fine as the pointing signal. But after AFF people usually forget them all together. Like mentioned above... I just don't see any method being better than another. I think the general flow of AFF should be some what consistant from DZ to DZ but only one standerdized way? Not neccesary. Some people teach certain ways better than others teach other ways. Whatever works at any particular place is cool. And for students traveling around? Nothing but a little time on the ground to bring everyone up to speed and on the same page...

[Beachbum 0]

I have to agree with Sebazz overall ... ground work is the key ... especially if a dz change is involved. If someone can't pick it up from thorough discussion on the ground, maybe they ought to take up a different sport? As for the legs out ... where I went thru AFF ... they made sure to do it sideways instead of up and down just to help prevent that peace sign bit. They used the alti tap for an alt. check, which makes a lot of sense to me ... and the finger point (stressed in class that ANY direction) was pull.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[drenaline 0]

Thank you sebazz, thats what I was trying to say but had trouble puting it in words that werent spanish.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[riggerrob 558]

dida made a good point about limiting the number of hand signals to 6 or 7.
USPA preaches that students can only grasp 5 to 7 new concepts at one time.
I disagree with instructors who believe that "students will do whatever you tell them." Those instructors have taught at one school for too long and are starting to believe their own rhetoric.
I also disagree with students hopping back and forth between schools. At Pitt Meadows, we encourage students to do the entire PFF program in a month or less, or not bother. Students who cannot commit to completing the PFF program in short order should be encouraged to follow the traditional route of paper tosses followed by short freefalls.
Far wiser to keep signals simple, related to previous learning and few in number.
Erno also made a good point about scared students going deaf.

[flyhi 24]

Quote

Standardization in this case is just what we need.

I have to agree with Merrick. In many organizations there is not only a Safety Department, but also a Standardization Department. And they work hand in hand. If you jump with someone for the first time, it is nice to know if we wants to advise you of an impending unsafe condition, you will understand the signal. The Pull signal at altitude anytime after AFF, should be an emergency situation. I have used it myself once and know of several others who have also used it. And as many dirt dives as I have been on, I have never seen hand signals discussed. That's the beauty of standardization, those things are standard.

As an aside, during my AFF, the tongue signal meant "Arch More".

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.