Chivo 0 #1 October 29, 2002 I was talking about this issue with some friends at the dz, and wanted to post it here so everybody could comment on that. The situation we were talking about was having a premature deployment at the door and have that parachute entangle with the plane, or end up with a damaged parachute. Note that many students and skydivers in general have no idea of what their reserve looks like. For the most part, they are one colored, but I'm curious, can you get a multi colored reserve? I don't see why would anyone do this, but still. Disclaimer: I'm not an expert. So you should consider this as my opinion only. IF you have a premature deployment at the door and that parachute is entangled with the plane, you should... Determine WHICH parachute is deployed. If it's the main, you can execute your emergency procedure as you would in any other type of malfunction. But, if it's the reserve, DO NOT CUT-AWAY! Keep altitude aware. If high enough, take out your hook knife and get rid of the reserve by cutting the lines. (Q: Would it be better to cut it at the lines or at the risers?) And after you're clear from the reserve, you're free to pull your main. If you're low, pull your main and hope that it will clear the mess you have above you. At this point, a prayer might come in handy if you're a believer. You might get that miracle you're thinking about. Anyone can comment on this? Any suggestions? Would this be the appropriate response to such situation? I know that prevention would be a better option, but if you're in this situation, what would you do? Thx, Chivo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fool 0 #2 October 29, 2002 I don't recall ever hearing of someone wrapping a chute (main or reserve) around the tail, and just hanging there. the procedures seems ok to me, except the deploy your main and hope for the best, as this would more than likely rip off the tai., but as far as I've heard that probably happened the first time your chute wrapped the plane, and any prayers should go out to the pilot and other passengers. I may be wrong, but I haven't heard of this happening. S.E.X. party #1 "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chivo 0 #3 October 29, 2002 I'd assume that the parachute would tear and you'd be free falling with threads of zp fabric above you. But as many people are trained, they would automatically do the usual emergency procedure, thus, cutting away the ONLY chance to survive. Again, that is if the parachute out is the reserve. Chivo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chivo 0 #4 October 29, 2002 Oh, and yes, I totally forgot... the plane would be seriously damaged, so everyone else in the plane would have to jump, including the pilot. I hope this doesn't happen to me or anyone for that matter. But I wanted to discuss it because it was never mentioned in training. Chivo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #5 October 29, 2002 >but I'm curious, can you get a multi colored reserve? You can get reserves in any color(s) you like. PD will happily build one to your specs. In terms of practicality, bright red/yellow/orange colors make the most sense; easier to find you if you land out and are injured. A different color center cell can make packing a bit more foolproof. >Q: Would it be better to cut it at the lines or at the risers? Risers. It may be hard to reach the lines (especially after you start cutting) and they will not be moving as much as the lines. >If you're low, pull your main and hope that it will clear the mess you > have above you. If you're still attached to the plane, you will generally be downwind of your reserve, so the main is likely to clear. However, your main will then have to deal with the issue of landing both your weight and the aircraft's weight. While this has been done successfully, it's not something I'd want to count on. If the aircraft is still under control, and you cannot chop away the reserve, then the best choice may be to do nothing. Landing with the plane, and getting dragged along a grass strip at 60mph, may be more survivable than opening your main and hoping the right lines break - and will almost certainly be more survivable for the pilot of the plane. As the pilot will no doubt be aware of your plight, he may well plan to land off-airport in a field, in water, or in another area that maximizes both his and your chance of survival. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #6 October 29, 2002 >I don't recall ever hearing of someone wrapping a chute (main or > reserve) around the tail, and just hanging there. It happened to a student of Bryan Burke's. She cut away the reserve and landed under the main. >the procedures seems ok to me, except the deploy your main and > hope for the best, as this would more than likely rip off the tail., Depends on where you "catch" the parachute. If you exit and the reserve goes over the tail and you go under, the tail is likely to see significant damage. If the reserve begins deploying and you exit such that the reserve gets wrapped around the tail, the forces involved may well try to keep it collapsed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edenney 0 #7 October 29, 2002 Just my 2 cents worth on Reserve colors. Yes, you can custom order just about any colors for your reserve. I think it's wise though to order a solid color (preferably a bright color) and make sure that it doesn't contain ANY of the colors of your main parachute. In an emergency situation where every second counts you don't want to waste any time whatsoever trying to figure out if the canopy is your Main or your Reserve (or both). I'm not a rigger but I've also been told it's easier to identify tears or other similar problems when you're getting your reserve inspected and repacked if the canopy is a bright solid color (makes sense). Also it's easier to identify someone under canopy that's just had a cutaway and may need assistance when they reach the ground. I remember someone just off student status inquiring about ordering a reserve to match their main. That could have been a fatal mistake. Seems like an innocent enough question though to someone that may only have 50 jumps and is getting ready to order their first set of gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #8 October 30, 2002 QuoteAlso it's easier to identify someone under canopy that's just had a cutaway and may need assistance when they reach the ground. good point edenney! I (hopefully soon spoken of in the past tense) jump a Raven 2 in solid watermellon Orange. While this canopy was once jumped by a former DZO it had not been used locally for some time. To add to the confusion, another hardcore senior had 3 lineover chops this spring and - wait for it - guess what his reserve looks like? "Is that Dave or did Brian have another mal?" Happy Hallow'een Dave Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #9 October 30, 2002 I prefer solid white reserves. If anything gets on them it is easy to see. I have also heard that white is the stongest color, not sure if that is true or not. Generally a solid white F-111 7 cell w/o a PC is pretty obviously a reserve. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #10 October 30, 2002 Quote Generally a solid white F-111 7 cell w/o a PC is pretty obviously a reserve. aka, Me coming in for landing.... -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #11 October 30, 2002 With the ever increasing popularity of all white canopies with colored ribs its hard to tell whats happening if they pull at 7k. I'm more in favor of Pink reserves... No one in their right mind would get a all pink main so its easy to tell its a reserve.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #12 October 30, 2002 QuoteWith the ever increasing popularity of all white canopies with colored ribs its hard to tell whats happening if they pull at 7k. I'm more in favor of Pink reserves... No one in their right mind would get a all pink main so its easy to tell its a reserve. You have to decide if ease of inspection or identification is more important. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
clrarch 0 #13 October 30, 2002 I'm a student jumper---getting closer to finishing up AFF (Level 7---if the winds would ever cooperate!) My question as a student: I'm not given a knife when I jump (I've noticed my JM's always have them). If I were in a situation with a premature reserve deployment that malfunctioned, I wouldn't be able to cut it away without a knife (I should probably note my equipment: Vector, SOS system w/RSL, Nav. 220). Should I be concerned or is the likelihood small enough that it's not really an issue? Should students always have a knife as a safety precaution? Also curious to know how long it takes to cut the lines with a knife.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #14 October 30, 2002 am not an instructor but on >>Should students always have a knife as a safety precaution? I think they shouldn't have a knife, its another new procedure to teach and can create mind block, better let them know only the red and silver. >>Also curious to know how long it takes to cut the lines with a knife If the line is in tension it will cut easily in no time (taking in consideration that the hook knife has a good blade). HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #15 October 30, 2002 >I prefer solid white reserves. If anything gets on them it is easy to > see. I haven't noticed much difference between my three reserves (white, yellow and pale blue) in terms of which is easier to see dirt on. They're all a bit dirty now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 October 30, 2002 Quotewhite, yellow and pale blue All light colors that let light through.. I hate orange reserves. When I hang them up the light doesn't go all the way through the canopy, making inspections harder and more time consuming. I think white lets the most light through for the easiest inspection. A black reserve would be a real pain. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #17 October 30, 2002 Quote>Q: Would it be better to cut it at the lines or at the risers? Risers. It may be hard to reach the lines (especially after you start cutting) and they will not be moving as much as the lines. If you are holding the knife in the right hand, cut the left risers first (right risers first if you are holding the knife in the left hand). -- Come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauril 0 #18 October 30, 2002 Quote >>Should students always have a knife as a safety precaution? I think they shouldn't have a knife, its another new procedure to teach and can create mind block, better let them know only the red and silver. In my dropzone, and in finland in general, students will have a hook knife from jump one, and they are taught that if they had a leg strapped in the lines, they have to cut the leg out of the lines before the emergency procedures, that could be a very dangerous situation if you deploy your reserve when still stuck in your main. A while ago a first time jumper just died because of that, and we had a similar situation in our dz, and the jumper just cut the lines above the link, chopped the main and deployed the reserve.(and brought both handles and the hook knife down with him, tough guy huh? with only four jumps.) Of course we have only s/l courses, you could more easily get stuck in the lines from a bad exit... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsoutar 0 #19 October 30, 2002 If you are concerned about it, buy a knife - best types are the small aluminium ones and the Jack knife. It is mandatory to carry a knife after level 8 (ie off student status) and I don't think that there is a rule to say that you can't carry one before that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
clrarch 0 #20 October 30, 2002 Quote If you are concerned about it, buy a knife - best types are the small aluminium ones and the Jack knife. I didn't really think about it until I read a few threads about premature reserve deployments, so I didn't even know I should be concerned It is mandatory to carry a knife after level 8 (ie off student status) and I don't think that there is a rule to say that you can't carry one before that. I'll be off student status in three jumps---I'll invest in a knife soon enough. How many student jumpers out there right now have a knife? Curious to know how different DZ's equip students.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #21 October 30, 2002 Okay, lots of good stuff here guys, IMHO, the best mitigation for this situation is of course avoidance.... Make sure your closing loops are in good order, make sure you check what you are grabbing in the door jam, and consider your choice of reserve handle design.... safe climbouts brothers and sisters...-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Craig 0 #22 October 30, 2002 QuoteI'd assume that the parachute would tear and you'd be free falling with threads of zp fabric above you. But as many people are trained, they would automatically do the usual emergency procedure, thus, cutting away the ONLY chance to survive. Again, that is if the parachute out is the reserve. Chivo Eww, that sent chills down the spine! Very good reason to have different/contrasting colored main and reserve canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
