jceman 1
Jessica 0
QuoteThanks for the words of encouragement -- i'm very surprised to see this happened once before and was posted here.. shows I need to read up on the incidents fourm because it wouldn't have happened to me if I had.
The one I'm thinking of was before we had an incidents forum. It happened to our very own Jumperpaula.
I'm afraid that misrouted bridles really aren't that uncommon.
Again, thanks for the photos. It's a hard malfunction to visualize.
Skydiving is for cool people only
Andie787 0
Like most of you, I think it was very good of Kevin to post what happened. He obviously believes in helping others learn and stay safe, and in the spirit of the skydiving community. A community that at once amazed me with its openness and drew me in with its sense of tightknit family. It also scared the shit out of me with its acceptance of danger and death; taken very seriously, yet at the same time treated so lightly in jest.
Kevin must have been expecting some criticism and was prepared to ignore it or address it as he felt the need. I can understand his defensiveness, but questioning someone's experience level politely but directly is not an invalid response. And I don't think it's fair to say only people that know you or have jumped with you have a right to question your ability/experience. If that's the case why not e-mail the incident to only your friends for discussion? It's an open forum and respectful (if somewhat direct) questionning can be responded to and misunderstandings can be corrected.
GEAR CHECKS: I only have 15 jumps and I know that I likely wouldn't have missed that misrouted bridle. Now, before you jump all over me, let me tell you why. I'm a newbie. It takes me forever to do a gear check because I have to think about everything I'm looking at. When I open the main flap I'm thinking: pin is correctly though loop (happy or sad), pin is tight and doesn't slip, bridle is properly routed and tucked in, pilot chute is secure but easy to pull, and when the flap is closed very little bridle is visible... and so on.
I used to watch my JM doing a pre-flight gear check and (like everything in this sport) I was thinking, I can't wait till I can do that so easily! I figured, with time and jumps I would be able to just glance at the three-ring assembly or the pins and *know* something was wrong. And maybe that would be true most of the time. But maybe one time I would just glance at it and see nothing wrong because the last 100 times I did it there *was* nothing wrong!
I think this type of mistake is more likely to happen to someone with medium experience than to someone with less experience (as long as they have thorough training).
Think back to when gear checks were not routine for you. When you had to actually think about what you were looking at, when each jump was bringing you to a new level of joy and fear, when it took you 30 minutes to pack because you had to make sure everything was perfect, when you were beyond the numbness of your first skydive but you hadn't yet become comfortable with this strange backpack that was going to save your life. Maybe take the time this weekend to show some newbie how to do a complete gear check and a pre-boarding buddy check. Maybe get them to show you what they know, so you can help them understand the rig better. But look at your gear through new eyes. Then use those new eyes on your own and your friends gear.
Thanks for sharing this story Kevin. As I once overheard at the DZ: "Skydiving has got to be the only sport where people love to tell stories about how they screwed up!" Why? Because when a skydiver screws up, he must subsequently SURVIVE. And that's pretty exciting.
Andie
Kevin must have been expecting some criticism and was prepared to ignore it or address it as he felt the need. I can understand his defensiveness, but questioning someone's experience level politely but directly is not an invalid response. And I don't think it's fair to say only people that know you or have jumped with you have a right to question your ability/experience. If that's the case why not e-mail the incident to only your friends for discussion? It's an open forum and respectful (if somewhat direct) questionning can be responded to and misunderstandings can be corrected.
GEAR CHECKS: I only have 15 jumps and I know that I likely wouldn't have missed that misrouted bridle. Now, before you jump all over me, let me tell you why. I'm a newbie. It takes me forever to do a gear check because I have to think about everything I'm looking at. When I open the main flap I'm thinking: pin is correctly though loop (happy or sad), pin is tight and doesn't slip, bridle is properly routed and tucked in, pilot chute is secure but easy to pull, and when the flap is closed very little bridle is visible... and so on.
I used to watch my JM doing a pre-flight gear check and (like everything in this sport) I was thinking, I can't wait till I can do that so easily! I figured, with time and jumps I would be able to just glance at the three-ring assembly or the pins and *know* something was wrong. And maybe that would be true most of the time. But maybe one time I would just glance at it and see nothing wrong because the last 100 times I did it there *was* nothing wrong!
I think this type of mistake is more likely to happen to someone with medium experience than to someone with less experience (as long as they have thorough training).
Think back to when gear checks were not routine for you. When you had to actually think about what you were looking at, when each jump was bringing you to a new level of joy and fear, when it took you 30 minutes to pack because you had to make sure everything was perfect, when you were beyond the numbness of your first skydive but you hadn't yet become comfortable with this strange backpack that was going to save your life. Maybe take the time this weekend to show some newbie how to do a complete gear check and a pre-boarding buddy check. Maybe get them to show you what they know, so you can help them understand the rig better. But look at your gear through new eyes. Then use those new eyes on your own and your friends gear.
Thanks for sharing this story Kevin. As I once overheard at the DZ: "Skydiving has got to be the only sport where people love to tell stories about how they screwed up!" Why? Because when a skydiver screws up, he must subsequently SURVIVE. And that's pretty exciting.
Andie
QuoteYou are not the first to do this...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=188845#188845
(Pictures there to...)
It shouldn't be hard to catch on a pin check. However, I missed it when I checked my rig, The person doing my pre-flight pin check missed it and the person in the plane who checked it before I got out missed it.
PEOPLE - LOOK AT THESE PICTURES AND LEARN. THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.
I got so angry when I came down, threw off my rigg and right away noticed what the fuck I had done.
Well I expect the beer is bought and drunk.
Good job saving your life!
Thanks for the clear picture Fudd, since I couldn't see anything on the other pics(black). I saw this exact same function on a Racer jumped by someone else who posts here and it was packed by a packer not familiar with the Racer! This has been done a lot more times than reported. I think Kevin should be commended for sharing this easy misrout with others to look out for!
Craig 0
QuoteQuote[replyI don't see how you can get a horseshoe when your PC is in tow. Perhaps i'm having a brainfart here, but I thougth a horseshoe is when your dbag is out and your PC is stowed.
AFAIK: a horseshoe is when any part of your chute is attached to you or your rig, someplace else than at your risers.
Ie you got your bridle around your arm/leg, some lines got caught by your camera helmet, your pilotchute is still in its pouch but the main is already out, ...
This may be a matter of semantics, but I don't think so -- what you are referring to is/was referred to by my instructors as an entanglement.
We use the term horsehsoe to refer specifically to an out of sequence deployment, that is, the bag leaves the container with the pilot chute still stowed, just as Kevin states.
As defined by the SIM:
HORSESHOE: n. A partial parachute malfunction where part of the deployed parachute is entangled with the jumper or his or her equipment.
I was taught that you have a horseshoe if any part of the main or reserve system is entangled on you other than where is is supposed to be attached. I am pretty sure the "Breakaway" video explains it with almost the same wording as Dragon used. In any case we all know that this is not a good situation to be in.
Very well said Andie. Keep that attitude. It will serve you well in this sport.
Bob
Bob
skybytch 259
QuoteThis is why I use a pull-out PC.
While a pull-out system does eliminate the possibility of a pilot chute in tow, it also introduces other "human error" factors into the equation. I know several people with pull-outs who've had to go silver after having an impossible pull. On further inspection on the ground it was discovered that in each case misrouting of the bridle inside the container created the problem.
At least with a throw out, a good gear check should catch a misrouted bridle. It's a bit more difficult to check for that when everything except the pud is buried under the closing flaps.
murrays 0
QuoteQuoteThis is why I use a pull-out PC.
While a pull-out system does eliminate the possibility of a pilot chute in tow, it also introduces other "human error" factors into the equation. I know several people with pull-outs who've had to go silver after having an impossible pull. On further inspection on the ground it was discovered that in each case misrouting of the bridle inside the container created the problem.
At least with a throw out, a good gear check should catch a misrouted bridle. It's a bit more difficult to check for that when everything except the pud is buried under the closing flaps.
But....if a misrouted bridle is the problem...on a pullout you aren't trailing a pc...the reserve launches into clean air...very big difference.
You know, I've jumped a pull-out for 22 years and I've never heard of anybody having a hard pull on one for years. I thought that problem was designed out in about 1980. Do you have pictures that would illustrate how this could be packed on a pull-out as I am having a very hard time understandling how it is possible.
--
Murray
"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey
Murray
"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey
skybytch 259
QuoteDo you have pictures that would illustrate how this could be packed on a pull-out as I am having a very hard time understandling how it is possible.
Unfortunately, no I don't have pictures and I don't remember all the details.
One of the jumpers was team training and a packer who was unfamiliar with the pullout packed it for her. The other I heard about but I didn't see the gear. Both jumpers continued to jump their pull-outs after that; they were just more careful about bridle routing and who they let pack for them.
btw, I'm not dissing pull-outs here. For someone who always packs for themselves I think pull-outs are great - super secure for freeflying, no worry about a horseshoe or p/c in tow.
My personal preference is the throw out, primarily because I use packers on a regular basis and so few of them are familiar with how to pack the pilot chute and bridle on a pull-out system and because my only experience jumping a pull-out nearly ended in my first reserve ride. I did my normal "throw" and ended up with a floating pud. Amazing how much more aggressive you need to be with the pull and throw on a pull-out compared to a throw out...
Murray,
I can name about 3 reserve rides in the past three years due to an impossible pull on a pull-out system. They do happen. From what I've seen it was from having the grommet that the lanyard from the pud to the pin runs through pushed so far up under the side flap that it created so much tension as to be impossible to pull while in freefall.
Chris
I can name about 3 reserve rides in the past three years due to an impossible pull on a pull-out system. They do happen. From what I've seen it was from having the grommet that the lanyard from the pud to the pin runs through pushed so far up under the side flap that it created so much tension as to be impossible to pull while in freefall.
Chris
murrays 0
QuoteMurray,
I can name about 3 reserve rides in the past three years due to an impossible pull on a pull-out system. They do happen. From what I've seen it was from having the grommet that the lanyard from the pud to the pin runs through pushed so far up under the side flap that it created so much tension as to be impossible to pull while in freefall.
Chris
Wow! To me that is a malfunction you really have to work at giving yourself. To my mind though, if it was your day to screw up and pack yourself a function that isn't a bad one to have...certainly better than a pc in tow as there are no entanglement possibilities. Reserve into clean air and your main container closed tight.
I have been considering changing to a throw-out on my next rig but I think I will stay with a pull-out. I don't plan on doing any Birdman suit jumps where a throw-out is definitely recommended.
Thanks for explaining how these functions were accomplished..and thanks for all your updates on the 300-way over the last while...definitely throughly enjoyed by yours truly...
--
Murray
"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey
Murray
"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey
Liemberg 0
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In Reply To
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Do you have pictures that would illustrate how this could be packed on a pull-out as I am having a very hard time understandling how it is possible.
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Unfortunately, no I don't have pictures and I don't remember all the details.
I am slightly biased towards pull-out, jumping one since 1984 but I remember (even from back then) that people had occasional hard pulls on them. In my country it went as far as a complete ban on pull outs for anyone below C license (which was 200 jumps at that time) I thought that to be stupid then (it was later corrected) since IMHO these were all 'rigging errors'. A modern pull-out has a piece of webbing at the base of the pilotchute. In that webbing is a grommet and a piece of webbing with a straight pin on one side and a pud on the other side goes through that grommet. Never seen such a setup give a hard pull. The old system with a piece of suspensionline in a complicated knot was/is 'hard-pull-prone'. I hardly see that one anymore.
If someone packs for me I usually tell them to leave it open with a pull-up cord in it and the pilot chute on top since they usualy don't know what they are doing at that point. I need 60 seconds to close it, which indeed is slightly more than the time needed to check what I am putting on my back. (This is almost the same as with our Strong-tandems where our packers always leave the mains top flap 'unstowed' since any tandemmaster worth his salt wants to check the drogue 3ring, its release handles and the bridle routing... combine the last part of the packjob with an equipment check and gain peace of mind...)
Back on topic with Kevins malfunction (and maybe another recent one with pictures where I saw a reservepin 'coming from the wrong direction'):
One wonders how these can be missed when you look at them, but actually the explanation is quite simple. Once the 'magic of the pin check ritual' has worn a bit you will notice that there is 'never' anything wrong with the equipment you are checking. Through my jumping career I must have checked several thousand rigs prior to boarding and I distinctly remember most if not all the anomalies that would have lead to a malfunction, like misrouted bridles, pull up cords and such. So on good grounds I EXPECT to see 'nothing wrong'. The human mind - being a funny thing - is verry capable of seeing what it expects to see instead of seeing what is actually there. Unfortunate but true. And a phenomenon to remember from now on when you check your own rig or your friends one...
Anyway, this soapbox may not be my rightful place for I myself have proven my ability to route a passengers drogue release through both the loops of the 3-ring on a tandem, thus giving the tandemmaster a 'drogue-release' with only a decorative function...Since I, "the chief", packed it myself and the plane was waiting he skipped the check he normally does...A learning moment for both of us...
EXPECTATIONS CAN KILL YOU (luckily this one didn't, but nevertheless...)
"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...
I have made over 200 wingsuit flights and never had PC hesitation and I use a fairly tight configuration, by that I have a Silhoutte 150 in an OJ container, I deploy with legs together straight and pointed which give me a clean deployment and less chance of turning during the intial deployment and snatch stages of the canopy being released. Why do i do this because I had a spinning mal at the herc boogie due to being turned during deployment with my leg wing still open.
Whatever works for you but legs togther actually makes more sense and fly through the entire deployment and start unzippign as soon as you get your hands around the front from pitching.
Cheers
Fraser
Whatever works for you but legs togther actually makes more sense and fly through the entire deployment and start unzippign as soon as you get your hands around the front from pitching.
Cheers
Fraser
Dont just talk about it, Do it!
quote]
A modern pull-out has a piece of webbing at the base of the pilotchute. In that webbing is a grommet and a piece of webbing with a straight pin on one side and a pud on the other side goes through that grommet. Never seen such a setup give a hard pull. The old system with a piece of suspensionline in a complicated knot was/is 'hard-pull-prone'. I hardly see that one anymore.
***
I have seen the short piece of bridle (between the pud and pc) get wrapped around the webbing in such a manner the tension caused a hard/impossible pull and a subsequent reserve ride. Pull-out closing lessons were promptly given to all packers after that one...
A modern pull-out has a piece of webbing at the base of the pilotchute. In that webbing is a grommet and a piece of webbing with a straight pin on one side and a pud on the other side goes through that grommet. Never seen such a setup give a hard pull. The old system with a piece of suspensionline in a complicated knot was/is 'hard-pull-prone'. I hardly see that one anymore.
***
I have seen the short piece of bridle (between the pud and pc) get wrapped around the webbing in such a manner the tension caused a hard/impossible pull and a subsequent reserve ride. Pull-out closing lessons were promptly given to all packers after that one...
Liemberg 0
QuoteI have seen the short piece of bridle (between the pud and pc) get wrapped around the webbing in such a manner the tension caused a hard/impossible pull and a subsequent reserve ride.
Well what can I say, except that you are not supposed to wrap it around anything.Then again, as I said, I do prefer to close it myself. (One of those "By the time I learned you youngsters the trick I've done it myself ten times...")
But we are off-topic now I guess and Billvon is coming after me with a bat
"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...
AFAIK: a horseshoe is when any part of your chute is attached to you or your rig, someplace else than at your risers.
Ie you got your bridle around your arm/leg, some lines got caught by your camera helmet, your pilotchute is still in its pouch but the main is already out, ...
This may be a matter of semantics, but I don't think so -- what you are referring to is/was referred to by my instructors as an entanglement.
We use the term horsehsoe to refer specifically to an out of sequence deployment, that is, the bag leaves the container with the pilot chute still stowed, just as Kevin states.
Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.
Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?