sducoach 0
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billvon 2,434
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>... any opinions on the advisability of downsizing from a 260 (AFF
>student canopy;9 jumps) to a PD220 (a couple of jumps) to a PD200
> (15 jumps) and thence to a 170 (say a Spectre)?
My usual advice -
There's nothing wrong with that as long as you learn to fly each canopy before you move on to the next one. To me, flying a canopy means you can:
-land crosswind and no wind
-turn at least 45 degrees in the flare
-flat turn at least 90 in both directions at 50 feet
-land with rear risers
-land on slight uphills and downhills
-land reliably in a 10 meter circle
-do a high performance approach (double fronts or turn to double fronts)
Once you can do all that you're probably ready to downsize. If you skip some of that you'll likely never learn it - if it worries you to land with rear risers on the PD200 (210 actually) you'll be terrified of doing it on a 170 and won't try it.
>student canopy;9 jumps) to a PD220 (a couple of jumps) to a PD200
> (15 jumps) and thence to a 170 (say a Spectre)?
My usual advice -
There's nothing wrong with that as long as you learn to fly each canopy before you move on to the next one. To me, flying a canopy means you can:
-land crosswind and no wind
-turn at least 45 degrees in the flare
-flat turn at least 90 in both directions at 50 feet
-land with rear risers
-land on slight uphills and downhills
-land reliably in a 10 meter circle
-do a high performance approach (double fronts or turn to double fronts)
Once you can do all that you're probably ready to downsize. If you skip some of that you'll likely never learn it - if it worries you to land with rear risers on the PD200 (210 actually) you'll be terrified of doing it on a 170 and won't try it.
hsaddler 0
Quote
To me, flying a canopy means you can:
-land crosswind and no wind
-turn at least 45 degrees in the flare
-flat turn at least 90 in both directions at 50 feet
-land with rear risers
-land on slight uphills and downhills
-land reliably in a 10 meter circle
-do a high performance approach (double fronts or turn to double fronts)
That's a nice little certification sequence... I've never seen all those written down before. And it would disqualify me from downsizing, since I've not even tried most of those maneuvers.
And I don't even know what a "double front" is (yikes, better go back to the 260...)
QuoteAnd I don't even know what a "double front" is
Pull down on both front risers to increase landing speed (before you flare)
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hsaddler 0
Quote
Pull down on both front risers to increase landing speed (before you flare)
Ah ha... never heard it called that.
Margusja 0
to 45 jumps 260 PD
45 - 78 sabre 170
78 - to now (103) z-po 130 wingload 1.73
blue sky
45 - 78 sabre 170
78 - to now (103) z-po 130 wingload 1.73
blue sky
1.73 with 85 jumps? 
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rainman 0
Quote(jump #) 78 - to now (103) z-po 130 wingload 1.73
I'm not trying to bash on you here or make any kind of judgement about your abilities, I would just like to point out that to fly any parachute at that wingloading in the Netherlands you would need to have at least 1000 (that's right, one thousand) jumps, of which at least 100 in the last 12 months.
Be safe,
Rainman
QuoteMy usual advice -
There's nothing wrong with that as long as you learn to fly each canopy before you move on to the next one. To me, flying a canopy means you can:
-land crosswind and no wind
-turn at least 45 degrees in the flare
-flat turn at least 90 in both directions at 50 feet
-land with rear risers
-land on slight uphills and downhills
-land reliably in a 10 meter circle
-do a high performance approach (double fronts or turn to double fronts)
Once you can do all that you're probably ready to downsize.
And there you have it. This is an excellent standard for the downsizing decision-making process.
brits17 0
take it easy there
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Margusja 0
thanks... I will.
Quote
Margusja 0
No I dont. And don't want to make any records. Just I had that canopy. I try to by wery carefully. Thanks for yours care :)
riddler 0
Quote78 - to now (103) z-po 130 wingload 1.73
Wow. I have 160 jumps and I feel very much at the edge of my ability under a 1.3 - still scares me to tell you the truth. Stay safe!
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD
Faber 0
as student i jumped a 240sqft,the next jump after student status i jumped a Sabre 170(sabre1),i had no problems what so ever. i think if you fly smart and safe you will be allrigth
Stay safe
Stefan Faber
Stay safe
Stefan Faber
"Fly smart and safe" is very good advice, but not always easy to follow if you haave no experience (aaan un-experinceced jumper using a fast canopy is not precisely "flying safe")
The Spectre is not a fast canopy for today's standards, but it is not slow. It can turn much faster than "student" or "accuracy" canopies, and un-experienced jumpers are prone to make mistakes (e.g. having hands un-even while flaring, reaching out with one of their feet at landing, turning too low into the wind for final, stalling the canopy high, etc.) Even the Spectre and other similar "mild" canopies won't forgive these mistakes as well as a larger canopy would.
Besides, the wingload proposed is in the advanced-expert range as recommended by the manufacturer.
I have a 170 and load it at about 1.05 and still have a fun flight performance.
The Spectre also takes its time for opening, and that could add some risk for an un-experienced jumper...
Jaime Chang
The Spectre is not a fast canopy for today's standards, but it is not slow. It can turn much faster than "student" or "accuracy" canopies, and un-experienced jumpers are prone to make mistakes (e.g. having hands un-even while flaring, reaching out with one of their feet at landing, turning too low into the wind for final, stalling the canopy high, etc.) Even the Spectre and other similar "mild" canopies won't forgive these mistakes as well as a larger canopy would.
Besides, the wingload proposed is in the advanced-expert range as recommended by the manufacturer.
I have a 170 and load it at about 1.05 and still have a fun flight performance.
The Spectre also takes its time for opening, and that could add some risk for an un-experienced jumper...
Jaime Chang
Faber 0
As i havnt flewn a spectra i would like to know which extra risk it will take that the canopi opens slower.QuoteThe Spectre also takes its time for opening, and that could add some risk for an un-experienced jumper...
I agree that a 170 sqft 7cell(simieliptical?)canopi will fly faster and be more dangerus than student gear or accurcy canopies,but each time you downsize you raise that risk.
i also would say that an unexperienced jumper could(normaly will)fly such a canopi safe as its new to them.I think an experienced jumper migth would fly the canopi more agressive and there for not as safe...
the same mistakes are made by experienced jumpers.Its normal that you try to defend your self by reaching an arm out not to hurt you,which cause a even sharper turn against the ground/object.I think most un-experienced jumpers are much more aware to get the canopi up against the wind in the rigth alti than more experienced jumpers,who knows what the canopi can(well some times not).Quoteun-experienced jumpers are prone to make mistakes (e.g. having hands un-even while flaring, reaching out with one of their feet at landing, turning too low into the wind for final, stalling the canopy high, etc.)
i guess i turned your post up side down,sorry for that.
By the way i agree in the way you think.better to be safe than sorry.
to the post-starter,you migth want to ask some of thouse who has seen you in the air,most of us in here gives oppinion based on personal experience which migth wont fit in to your level of fligth(not good not bad),and there for could cost you mony or your neck(a 170 can kill).what ever you do be safe
Stay safe
Stefan Faber
billvon 2,434
>i think if you fly smart and safe you will be allrigth
The problem there is if you downsize to the point that you're worried about the canopy (i.e. you're always being conservative and 'safe') you will never learn to fly it well. I often suggest to people that, once they start to get bored with their canopy, try the usual exercises (i.e. turn 45 degrees in the flare, turn 90 degrees at 50 feet.) If it's hard to do, then it's a good thing they tried it on a larger canopy where mistakes are less painful.
I cringe when I see someone on a heavily loaded canopy flying it straight in every time, terrified to turn at all because of all the dire warnings they've gotten about turning low. Not only are they collision hazards, but if anyone ever _does_ cut them off, they will be in a poor position to avoid them.
The problem there is if you downsize to the point that you're worried about the canopy (i.e. you're always being conservative and 'safe') you will never learn to fly it well. I often suggest to people that, once they start to get bored with their canopy, try the usual exercises (i.e. turn 45 degrees in the flare, turn 90 degrees at 50 feet.) If it's hard to do, then it's a good thing they tried it on a larger canopy where mistakes are less painful.
I cringe when I see someone on a heavily loaded canopy flying it straight in every time, terrified to turn at all because of all the dire warnings they've gotten about turning low. Not only are they collision hazards, but if anyone ever _does_ cut them off, they will be in a poor position to avoid them.
Faber 0
i think its a good teori and i think it work in pracsis aswell.
But most times you do feel abit worried when you downsize.You do it to get more speed,harder turns more G´s,but you dont want to hurt yourself.This point of veiv makes most canopi pilots more carefule to begin whith,ofcours this worry shouldnt become a fear, it should turn into knowleged and respect of the "toy" the person is playing whith.
a good canopi pilot should know what he/she can do whith the canopi,it will save them for minimun bruises one day
Stay safe
Stefan Faber
But most times you do feel abit worried when you downsize.You do it to get more speed,harder turns more G´s,but you dont want to hurt yourself.This point of veiv makes most canopi pilots more carefule to begin whith,ofcours this worry shouldnt become a fear, it should turn into knowleged and respect of the "toy" the person is playing whith.
a good canopi pilot should know what he/she can do whith the canopi,it will save them for minimun bruises one day
Stay safe
Stefan Faber
Give Scott Miller at Deland a e-mail ( [email protected] ) he's one of the best canopy pilots around and KNOWS downsizing.
Blues,
J.E.
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