what kind of stuff can you do on AFF solo jumps?

[JeffCa 0]

DHemer

+1 for canopy exersises
Turns more than 360 degrees are discouraged due to students general lack of altitude awearness and the chance of canopy collisions.

I guess I should qualify my situation a bit. My first time doing an A-licence, it was a small Cessna dropzone. There was only me and one other parachute in the sky. If I knew where that other chute was (and we generally stayed far from each other), we were good. The landing area was also huge. So I did spirals without getting scolded. It was probably my favourite memory of that entire course.

When I started again this year and did another A-licence, it was at a dropzone with a large landing area and a very separate student landing area far from the main one. Many times I was the only canopy around. I was in the holding area by 4,000 feet, the experienced jumpers were already stowing their brakes or in their pattern, so what else should I do? I had some fun with 3-5 spirals, always stopping above 2,000 feet. Canopy collisions could not have been an issue. Nobody said anything at all to me about it, and I always felt I was being encouraged to play around and learn about my chute up high.

Of course, you should always ask your instructor before you do something if you're not sure. I take that as a given and would never argue it. The comment before mine suggested that the jumper consult an instructor. So my first words in my original comment indicated that I was not an instructor, and I hope that my advice is taken with that in mind.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[DougH 270]

JeffCa

I guess I should qualify my situation a bit. My first time doing an A-licence, it was a small Cessna dropzone. There was only me and one other parachute in the sky. If I knew where that other chute was (and we generally stayed far from each other), we were good....blah blah blah blah

Maybe besides qualifying your situation you should limit the amount of e-coaching and advice your so expertly delivering! People are giving him the RIGHT advice, and your telling them that they are off base! Haa!

He should be talking at minimum to a coach, or better his instructors or a canopy coach, before he just goes up there and "pulls toggles and risers hard".

You really think it is a great idea for a student to be trying dynamic stalls based on some internet advice? He hasn't be properly coached on stall recovery. Sure he could get away with it just fine, or he could recover improperly, spin up, and have a cutaway.

You need a coach to remind a student about what happens if they aimlessly spiral under canopy.

The whole reason he is a student is because he needs the coaching and instruction.

It is for safety, but it is also for his learning. If you just go up there on hop and pops without objectives and drills, you learn a whole lot less.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[rohicks 2]

chemist

***
In between all of this I had line twists on jump #13 with a toggle fire that sent me into a spin. That was my first cutaway jump. ALWAYS practice your EPs!

You had a cutaway on your 13th jump?! That's messed up man I hope you're not superstitious
No i'm all good. Although i didn't jump the rest of the day mainly due to it killing my budget. I came back the next day and did a 5,500 hop n pop ;)

[rohicks 2]

nigel99

Quote

6. I did a couple full altitude jumps with my new VISO 2 digital altimeter with my analog altimeter in front of it so that I could slowly ween myself into my digital VISO altimeter. The very first time I jumped with my VISO and my analog together i looked at my digital the first time in free fall and I mis read it at 9,000ft. I thought it said 3,000 so I started to deploy. I checked my analog right before I pulled it all the way out and realized I was wrong and tucked the PC back in the BOC. After a few jumps of using both i felt comfortable reading my VISO and I started using my VISO solely. My point is always get used to one new piece of equipment first by doing a few jumps with it before adding something else new. During these jumps I practiced tracking on a heading towards the airport and off jump run.

I'd really like to hear from a couple of instructors on this? Something tells me, it was a bad idea but I can't really sensible alternatives.

Otherwise I think there is alot of good advice in your post. Especially get used to one piece of equipment at a time.

That was advice from my instructors on using both. They wanted me to slowly get weened into using a digital because that's what I had bought and wanted to use. Using my analog in free fall only glancing at my VISO sometimes, and using my VISO under canopy. Once I got used to it they wanted me to go and use my VISO only. I think it worked out great for me. I'm glad I did it that way.

[hillson 0]

He's talking about tucking your PC back into the BOC after you'd begun the deployment sequence, not the wearing of two altis.

[DHemer 0]

I think the point was more about you tucking your pilot chute back in not your alti training (bold text)

If it had come out while you were unstable later in the jump or underneath another jumper things could have gone badly

[rohicks 2]

excaza

***Please don't do that stuff without taking a canopy course first to have the proper instruction to stall your canopy and recover it. Especially don't attempt the spirals when your AAD is set on student, you are still learning how to set up proper landing patterns, and look out for traffic. I foresee bad things happening... Ask your instructors do what they say.

While caution is always to be encouraged, this is a bit much.

There is no problem with investigating your canopy's performance envelope provided you receive a proper briefing from someone qualified to do so. This doesn't require a canopy course (though they're awesome and everyone should take them all the time). There is also nothing wrong with spiraling nor stalling given sufficient altitude and airspace. Your AAD is not going to fire at 3000 feet. The problem with newer jumpers spiraling down, besides maybe not doing the most perfect job clearing their airspace, is that it puts them in the pattern with experienced jumpers at a higher wing loading and congests the pattern. It's advisable to do all of this kind of canopy work on hop & pops to avoid this.
I disagree; this is actually advice i'm regurgitating from my instructors. Even during the canopy course I took 2 weeks ago our S&TA told one of fellow students to not spiral while in the holding area because of exactly what I previously just said. And we were doing 8k hop n pops.

I agree there is no problem in investigating your canopy skills like: brake turns, flares, 90 - 180 - 360 turns, rear riser flares, front riser turns, but to spiral... no. I'd ask your instructor I can forsee what their advice would be on spiraling. Report back and let us know.

[rohicks 2]

DHemer

I think the point was more about you tucking your pilot chute back in not your alti training (bold text)

If it had come out while you were unstable later in the jump or underneath another jumper things could have gone badly

hillson

He's talking about tucking your PC back into the BOC after you'd begun the deployment sequence, not the wearing of two altis.

Fair enough. It wasn't all the way out. I think what you are picturing and what I said may have been over-dramatized, and I did discuss it with an instructor was no big deal.

It was pulled out an inch or two maybe not even that far. I do know i grabbed on it as if I was deploying, but was clearly wrong so tucked it back in whether or not anything came out.

[JeffCa 0]

DougH

Maybe besides qualifying your situation you should limit the amount of e-coaching and advice your so expertly delivering! People are giving him the RIGHT advice, and your telling them that they are off base! Haa!

He should be talking at minimum to a coach, or better his instructors or a canopy coach, before he just goes up there and "pulls toggles and risers hard".

You really think it is a great idea for a student to be trying dynamic stalls based on some internet advice? He hasn't be properly coached on stall recovery. Sure he could get away with it just fine, or he could recover improperly, spin up, and have a cutaway.

You need a coach to remind a student about what happens if they aimlessly spiral under canopy.

Calm down Doug. Yes, I wrote that it's off-base to tell somebody they need a canopy course to pull their rear risers or to try a turn from half brakes. These things are required for the A-licence in many places, which is typically done before the canopy course, and all students must do them. I was encouraged to do these things on my own after I was off radio. I really do not think going into half brakes and attempting a turn is going to kill him. Do you? Do you honestly think that pulling a toggle hard or exploring a little tug on your rears to feel the glide change is a technique that should not be attempted by students? Sure, talk to an instructor beforehand, as you do with many things, but it has to be done to get your A. If you object to my advice about a spiral, don't discredit my entire post, which had a main message of not being afraid of the canopy or thinking he might somehow break it, which was his original fear. The original comment was "I see people coming down in spirals, of course I'm not going to do this (well at least not till I have my own parachute), but can I do more drastic turns? And can a chute collapse under such maneuvers? Or can it take quite a lot?" Do you think it's overly-cautious to wait until one has their own parachute before attempting spirals or "drastic turns"?

Would you like to tell me "what happens" if a student checks their airspace, checks that they're up high, then spirals a few times under canopy? Is it death? Disaster? Armageddon? I did it many times in two countries under 2 different licencing systems, nobody ever said anything or indicated that it was inappropriate. Perhaps because a Navigator 280 really doesn't give high-performance results. YMMV, but my instructors seemed fine with it.

A good idea about the stall? I don't think he can stall it. I also don't recall telling him to stall, I suggested that it likely wasn't possible. Going back and reading my original comment, I see how it was unclear and can be misinterpreted, but a key word as I meant it was "try" to stall it (ie. pull down both toggles to maximum). My instructors told me the typical student canopies will not stall, and mine certainly didn't come close. No stall = no stall recovery training needed. Of course, as always, ask your instructor.

Is that your entire objection? That I didn't say to do these things but ask your instructors first? Asking your instructors first is implicit to any change or attempting a lot of things for the first time as a student.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[JeffCa 0]

rohicks

******Please don't do that stuff without taking a canopy course first to have the proper instruction to stall your canopy and recover it. Especially don't attempt the spirals when your AAD is set on student, you are still learning how to set up proper landing patterns, and look out for traffic. I foresee bad things happening... Ask your instructors do what they say.

While caution is always to be encouraged, this is a bit much.

There is no problem with investigating your canopy's performance envelope provided you receive a proper briefing from someone qualified to do so. This doesn't require a canopy course (though they're awesome and everyone should take them all the time). There is also nothing wrong with spiraling nor stalling given sufficient altitude and airspace. Your AAD is not going to fire at 3000 feet. The problem with newer jumpers spiraling down, besides maybe not doing the most perfect job clearing their airspace, is that it puts them in the pattern with experienced jumpers at a higher wing loading and congests the pattern. It's advisable to do all of this kind of canopy work on hop & pops to avoid this.
I disagree; this is actually advice i'm regurgitating from my instructors. Even during the canopy course I took 2 weeks ago our S&TA told one of fellow students to not spiral while in the holding area because of exactly what I previously just said. And we were doing 8k hop n pops.


Do I understand correctly that your S&TA told somebody to not spiral even from well above 5,000 feet and cited the AAD as a reason? Are you sure? If that's the case, I suppose the S&TA doesn't have any confidence in AADs then.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[rohicks 2]

JeffCa

Do I understand correctly that your S&TA told somebody to not spiral even from well above 5,000 feet and cited the AAD as a reason? Are you sure? If that's the case, I suppose the S&TA doesn't have any confidence in AADs then.

I don't think you should assume that, but yes she told him to not do that. As well as the other instructor teaching the course agreed with her. I'm sure there was more than one reason attached to it, but for me to speak to that for them other than what I heard is not appropriate. Considering that he was spiraling after we had completed all of our canopy skills required on that jump to kill altitude. I'm sure he was doing it lower than the S&TA would of liked.

I've always stayed away from spiraling because of the fear of firing off my AAD as a student. It was even taught in our ground course to not do it while citing the reason for a possible AAD fire when set to student status. Just doing what I'm told and recommend to do. That's why I said in my original reply for the OG poster to talk to their instructor about that before they take some random advice.

[devildog 0]

Stopping a pull on the PC and trying to get it back in when you've clearly tugged on it is a good way to get a horseshoe as it could come loose and wrap your arm. And how do you know it only came out 2"? I seriously doubt you measured it, or could, for that matter. Heck, you can't even see it :) If you're going to pull, pull.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[Di0 1]

As a student, I don't think trying maneuvers under canopy is wrong, as long as it's done using your head and not other anatomical parts of your body.

When I was under canopy during my first jump, I was doing very shy turns and the first thing the instructor of the radio said was: "Brother, when I tell you to turn, I need you to turn. Please don't be afraid to use those toggles".

I have been trying some spirals and some half brake turns starting with my jump #2, I used them a couple of times when I knew the guy above me was doing his first jump and wanted to give him vertical separation since nobody was below me at that point: look above, look below, look left, look right, and spiral down 500 ft, stop, check alti, look again, blow another 500 ft spiraling in the other direction. It worked great.

I always try to spiral only to the point where I feel tension in the lines, when I start to feel that lines are not in a good tension, I correct with the opposite handle and slowly go back into straight flight. Then try again. As a student I don't like the feeling of "dropping" when under canopy, I'm not ready to handle what could come out of that type of flight envelope. Plenty of time to try go out of that "comfortable" envelope later on.

No need to yank your handles on your first flights, that's my theory. Better if you get to know how this thing works progressively and smoothly, since I have no idea how it could react to a snap command. Pretty much same thing I did when I learned to drive. Nothing new here.

I think at jump #5 I asked not to get help with the flare, instructors agreed that I could handle it. Nailed a couple of perfect landings in a row. After landing, one of them asked me if my plan was to make all of them look bad or what, honestly I never felt so proud in my life. :)

As for stalls, I have been trying to stall that thing since day one as well, but haven't managed it yet. I have a feeling that with an exit weight of 155 lbs geared up, and a student 220, I would need to really pull those toggles all the way to my knees to stall it. Mentioned it to the instructor when he asked me if I tried to find the stall point, he gave me a big smile and told me that's about right and not to try it too hard if it doesn't happen in the normal range of the toggles with student canopies.

I think that as long as you try things that are not blatantly crazy, you discuss the right way to do them with your instructors, you're in open space and you stop "trying things" between 2500-2000 ft, it should be fine. But please, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[excaza 1]

rohicks

I disagree; this is actually advice i'm regurgitating from my instructors. Even during the canopy course I took 2 weeks ago our S&TA told one of fellow students to not spiral while in the holding area because of exactly what I previously just said. And we were doing 8k hop n pops.

Don't regurgitate, learn why they're saying it. You should understand how your equipment works at a deeper level than "don't do it because I said so." If he specifically stated "holding area" then you're generally below 2000 feet, an altitude where you should stop doing extreme maneuvers. There's another 5000 feet above that to play around in if you're doing a hop & pop from that high up. Again, understand what they're telling you.

Quote

I agree there is no problem in investigating your canopy skills like: brake turns, flares, 90 - 180 - 360 turns, rear riser flares, front riser turns, but to spiral... no. I'd ask your instructor I can forsee what their advice would be on spiraling. Report back and let us know.

I know what they would say, because it's what I said for the reasons that I gave.

[rohicks 2]

devildog

Stopping a pull on the PC and trying to get it back in when you've clearly tugged on it is a good way to get a horseshoe as it could come loose and wrap your arm. And how do you know it only came out 2"? I seriously doubt you measured it, or could, for that matter. Heck, you can't even see it :) If you're going to pull, pull.

Yes that's clearly what I said in my reply. I have no idea how far it was out, but I do know for a fact it wasn't much.

[rohicks 2]

excaza

***I disagree; this is actually advice i'm regurgitating from my instructors. Even during the canopy course I took 2 weeks ago our S&TA told one of fellow students to not spiral while in the holding area because of exactly what I previously just said. And we were doing 8k hop n pops.

Don't regurgitate, learn why they're saying it. You should understand how your equipment works at a deeper level than "don't do it because I said so." If he specifically stated "holding area" then you're generally below 2000 feet, an altitude where you should stop doing extreme maneuvers. There's another 5000 feet above that to play around in if you're doing a hop & pop from that high up. Again, understand what they're telling you.

You're making bad assumptions here. Just because I'm regurgitating advice from my instructors on a forum doesn't mean I don't understand my equipment.

[excaza 1]

rohicks

You're making bad assumptions here. Just because I'm regurgitating advice from my instructors on a forum doesn't mean I don't understand my equipment.

If the reason you have for not spiraling during an 8k H&P above the briefed cutoff altitude is because you think your AAD will fire, you don't understand your equipment.

[rohicks 2]

excaza

***You're making bad assumptions here. Just because I'm regurgitating advice from my instructors on a forum doesn't mean I don't understand my equipment.

If the reason you have for not spiraling during an 8k H&P above the briefed cutoff altitude is because you think your AAD will fire, you don't understand your equipment.

No. Its because I was doing a canopy course that required me to do certain skills to pass which did not include spiraling down. Please don't hijack the thread even more.

[excaza 1]

rohicks

No. Its because I was doing a canopy course that required me to do certain skills to pass which did not include spiraling down. Please don't hijack the thread even more.

Yeah, right.

rohicks

Especially don't attempt the spirals when your AAD is set on student

rohicks

I've always stayed away from spiraling because of the fear of firing off my AAD as a student. It was even taught in our ground course to not do it while citing the reason for a possible AAD fire when set to student status.

My response remains unchanged.

[rohicks 2]

excaza

***No. Its because I was doing a canopy course that required me to do certain skills to pass which did not include spiraling down. Please don't hijack the thread even more.

Yeah, right.

rohicks

Especially don't attempt the spirals when your AAD is set on student

rohicks

I've always stayed away from spiraling because of the fear of firing off my AAD as a student. It was even taught in our ground course to not do it while citing the reason for a possible AAD fire when set to student status.

My response remains unchanged.

You referred to my 8k hop and pop. Only time I've done a 8k hop and pop was during the canopy course so yes you're wrong. I don't see how you expect to know this without being at the drop one watching me...

On the other hand yes I don't do spirals because of what my instructors tell me and because I didn't want to activate my AAD when its set to student. Now that people have said that's not the case I'll discuss it with my instructor and see what their opinion on it is now that I have more jumps than when they first said it awhile back. End of story.

[excaza 1]

Ok, my bad.

If the reason you have for not spiraling during a skydive above the briefed cutoff altitude is because you think your AAD will fire, you don't understand your equipment.

[Di0 1]

rohicks

On the other hand yes I don't do spirals because of what my instructors tell me and because I didn't want to activate my AAD when its set to student. Now that people have said that's not the case I'll discuss it with my instructor and see what their opinion on it is now that I have more jumps than when they first said it awhile back. End of story.

Well, i'ts not "people", it's from the Vigil II User Manual (http://www.vigil.aero/wp-content/uploads/Vigil-II-users-manual-II.0.6.pdf)


“STUDENT Mode
The Vigil® cutter activates at 1040 ft. (317 meters) and below until 150 ft. (46 meters), if the freefall speed is equal or superior to 20 m/sec. (45 mph or 72 km/h)"

I assume Cypres has similar settings, but you should refer to Cypres manual if you use that device.

So if it opens anywhere above 1040ft because of spiraling (or even still freefalling, for what matters), I guess it must be regarded as an AAD failure; on the other hand if you're spiraling and dropping faster than 45mph at 1040ft and the AAD fires, it is the student's mistake. Account some error margin for those 1040 ft and you get the 2000-2500 ft altitude they generally point out to stop any intense maneuver under canopy, for this and other very good reasons.
That's how I see it, from the bottom of my little-to-none experience.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[rohicks 2]

Understood and makes sense; I'll discuss it and see what instructors say about doing spirals. Maybe with a little more experience they are more comfortable with me doing them than when they initially told me not to - not that i'm overly experienced to begin with. Just doing what I'm told that's all. Last thing I want to do is piss the people off at the dropzone that run it.

And the DZ's rigs are equipped with Vigil.

[Di0 1]

rohicks

Understood and makes sense; I'll discuss it and see what instructors say about doing spirals. Maybe with a little more experience they are more comfortable with me doing them than when they initially told me not to - not that i'm overly experienced to begin with. Just doing what I'm told that's all. Last thing I want to do is piss the people off at the dropzone that run it.

And the DZ's rigs are equipped with Vigil.

I got you, that's pretty much the very same philosophy I have. :D

I'm an aero engineer, so I get the part on how gear works pretty easily and I hope faster than average. But I suck at everything else, classic example of theory VS practice kind of person. So I'm also a big fan of the safe "discuss first" approach, the things that we might be skipping are countless.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[virgin-burner 1]

JeffCa

***once i almost punched a student in the face for doing just that.. he then got grounded by his instructor for the day.

For doing what exactly?

kept on spiralling like a fucking idiot in my vincinity.. mind you, i'm usually one of the first to land; and i dont spiral myself down. he freaked the shit out of me.. it's dangerous, it's stupid. i've never seen ANYBODY act such like an idiot under canopy.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda