Deuce 1 #1 August 5, 2003 I am your camera guy. I have flown dozens of tandems with you, and hundreds overall with the rest of the tandem crew, and you trust me. You get knocked out or incapacitated on exit. Your passenger may or may not know this. Should the camera flier deploy you? This just occurred to me reading Raydutch's post on being careful around tandems. I'm just curious. What would your expectations be? The reserve is less likely to malfunction than the main, right? So just let the Cypres get it, or dock and pull the handle? The TM's are my friends. I'd hate to watch one of them drop to a Cypres fire, but maybe that's the safest thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #2 August 5, 2003 QuoteI am your camera guy. I have flown dozens of tandems with you, and hundreds overall with the rest of the tandem crew, and you trust me. You get knocked out or incapacitated on exit. Your passenger may or may not know this. Should the camera flier deploy you? Yes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 August 5, 2003 QuoteShould the camera flier deploy you? According to the Tandem I/E that taught my course, they were taught how to do that during the I/E course. They would fly in, dock, pull the drogue release while backsliding away FAST. If they didn't back away very very fast, then the jumper would be pulled down into the trapdoor with the tandem pair, which could be VERY bad. As for me, I wouldn't expect it, but if my video guy did that for me, if I was knocked out, I think I would be very appreciative. There is no guarentee that the Cypress will work. There's no guarentee that the reserve won't get caught in the deployed drogue, but then there's no guarentee that the main would work properly either... With this said, I'm only a rookie TM with a bit over 50 tandems...I'm sure another TM with a LOT more experience will have something better to add then I have.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 August 5, 2003 QuoteAccording to the Tandem I/E that taught my course, they were taught how to do that during the I/E course. They would fly in, dock, pull the drogue release while backsliding away FAST. If they didn't back away very very fast, then the jumper would be pulled down into the trapdoor with the tandem pair, which could be VERY bad. Remember that if the TM gets KO'ed on exit they probably won't have the drouge out meaning they'll be doing about 170. The would mean the cameraflyer has to do several things, dock at 170 mph, deploy the drouge, hang on for a few seconds, then release the main. Or you could go strait to the reserve, it's *suposed* to be able to handle that.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 August 5, 2003 Quoteit's *suposed* to be able to handle that. Since the reserve (atleast on RWS) is the same thing (basically) as the OLD tandem mains, designed before drogues were used on tandems, then I'd say, yup, they'll handle it. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #6 August 5, 2003 QuoteShould the camera flier deploy you? Definitely, yes. If the drogue is out, deploy the main, if not deploy the reserve. Good luck getting to a drogue-less tandem with an unconscious TI though. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 August 5, 2003 Wouldn't you think that the pair could most likely end up on their back, from the arms/legs of the TM "flapping" and the passenger not knowing any better?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TEB6363 0 #8 August 5, 2003 Most of the time I hate to sit around and play the "what if" game. However, I'm just in the mood.. OK, through my Tandem training, there was the "scary" video and the 11"X17" page of tandem malfunctions that we had to watch, learn, and know. Most of all the 'stuff' they taught us boiled down to pull the handles in the correct order - all of them if you need to. With, of course, the few exceptions. Such as an entanglement with the drogue. Also, the Rig is set up with emergency devices that will activate at a set altitude (in theory). So, with my best and nicest voiceIf you are very very aware and there are no other complications, I think it would all go well and a video person could make the 'save'. However, if there were any complications - such as an entangled drogue, low in altitude and the AAD activating the reserve, and maybe a couple of others... I think that the main deployment at the wrong time may complicate the emergency. Besides, a reserve is packed by a rigger and is intended to open correctly. The main is the 'toy' we use for skydiving and may have some malfunction that it would take a conscious TM to deal with. I don't want to seem like I'm saying to just watch your friend go in... I'm just going back to the basics of the Tandem malfunction training and flow chart. I think that you would have to decide what was best, or even ask the TM you are filming What a question. However, I would only expect the TM to follow his training and not "plan" on changing the emergency procedures.. Just my thoughts.. Hey JP, how are the twins doing this summer... "C" is in his last two weeks of swim lessons and is now a 'deep water' swimmer and has been jumping off the high dive!!! Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #9 August 5, 2003 QuoteWouldn't you think that the pair could most likely end up on their back, from the arms/legs of the TM "flapping" and the passenger not knowing any better? I think it would really depend on the passenger's body position, just guessing though. I do know that a drogue-less backflip with a passenger that is arching is not easy to do. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #10 August 5, 2003 OH...yeah and be VERY careful. There was a fatality where the camera guy came in to help out and ended up getting tangled with the Tandem pair...He bounced right with them. But I would pull them out. And I would hope my video guy would pull me out. I would do it for a solo guy that is knocked out...Although I would just pull his reserve...With a drouge out I would pull the release...with out the reserve."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 August 5, 2003 QuoteThere was a fatality where the camera guy came in to help out and ended up getting tangled with the Tandem pair...He bounced right with them. I was thinking about that one, didn't find it on RWS's site... But, I thought that he hadn't gotten tangled, he was trying to get the drogue to release...didn't he eventually deploy his canopy right before impact, trying to slow the group down enough that someone might live?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #12 August 6, 2003 Thanks all you folks. It just kinda came to me reading about the lurker who almost whacked Raydutch's TM. In that situation the drogue would be out, and the TM unconscious. Drogue out, I'm sure in most circumstances I could deploy the main. I just think the reserve would be the better choice, cause I've seen a few spun up Tandem mains, but the reserves have always worked. I'll talk about it at the DZ. Tom the girls are doing great. THey are in their second swim camp and are both little fish! Nice fish, though. Not Sebazz-like at all. JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 August 6, 2003 QuoteSince the reserve (atleast on RWS) is the same thing (basically) as the OLD tandem mains, designed before drogues were used on tandems, then I'd say, yup, they'll handle it. Sure but do ya want to test it? I'll keep wearing my helmet so those over eager students don't KO me on the top of the door!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #14 August 6, 2003 QuoteThanks all you folks. It just kinda came to me reading about the lurker who almost whacked Raydutch's TM. In that situation the drogue would be out, and the TM unconscious. Drogue out, I'm sure in most circumstances I could deploy the main. I just think the reserve would be the better choice, cause I've seen a few spun up Tandem mains, but the reserves have always worked. If I were the KO'ed TM in your senario, I'd rather you deploy the main. Putting a Reserve out past a drouge is a bigger chance IMO.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #15 August 6, 2003 I believe ( and could be wrong ) but on that one he was trying to free a baglock? horshoe? I cannot remember the particulars.....but it appeared that he intended to hang on during his own deployment.... its been a couple of years since I read that one, and my mind isnt what it used to be...... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #16 August 6, 2003 It's only listed as "broken closing loop" on Worldwide Tandem Parachuting Fatalities (#10), but on page 104 of the Tandem Vector Manual are the full details (see attached)Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #17 August 6, 2003 That's it! Talk about a noble attempt by the video guy, but at some point, you've got to save your own life...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #18 August 6, 2003 I have been told by some that he went into help and got entangled with the lines....That he could not get away if he wanted to, and that he deployed because there was not anything left to do. But either way, be careful if you assist.... And if the drouge is out, pull the main. I don't like the chances of the reserve having to get past the drouge."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #19 August 6, 2003 --Interesting question. Since all the tandems I've done have been on Sigmas, I would say go for the crystal ball in either of these situations. If I saw a KO'd TM as a videographer, I'd do everything humanly possible short of killing myself to get to that crystal ball. As a TM, I would be enraged to the point of committing a crime if I had to watch a video of me streaming down unconscious and the videographer just waited for the cypress with his fingers crossed. In regards to feeling comfortable with the reserve clearing the drouge, I'm good with that. The crystal ball would also be the safest option for the videographer - no trap door. On other gear, best of luck. I would deploy the reserve and get away as quickly as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #20 August 6, 2003 The next question is, do you know how to fire the resever with the secondary/RSL deployment? Its not a single movement, and there's a locking pin in place to keep it from being deployed if not pulled the right way.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #21 August 6, 2003 QuoteThe next question is, do you know how to fire the resever with the secondary/RSL deployment? Its not a single movement, and there's a locking pin in place to keep it from being deployed if not pulled the right way. Thats an excellent point. Also one of the reasons that any videographer doing tandems should be familiar with the operation of the tandem gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #22 August 7, 2003 The answer to the question in my mind is YES! If the videographer can help an unconscious TM than by all means do it. The question though is, is the drogue out or not. If the drogue were out, I would want the videographer to deploy the main, instead of risking an entanglement with the drogue. ( I am thinking of Strong gear where trap door effect is not an issue. ) If the drogue is not out, I seriously doubt that the videographer could stay with the tandem pair, unless the videographer were a talented freeflyer. Especially if the tandem pair were tumbling @ tandem terminal. But if the videographer were able to get there I think that dumping the reserve would be the thing to do. The cypres SHOULD fire, but as someone said earlier, I would rather have someone try to help, as opposed to relying on a backup device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #23 August 7, 2003 With over 2200 tandems, I will tell you this...always, always, check your gear, be careful when you climb out of the plane and if you have a videographer, hopefully he will care enough to do something besides sit there and watch. The problem with the incident that Dave was talking about was a little more complicated than the short two paragraphs. It has been a few years, but If I remember it happened in Canada. The big problem that I remember was that the drogue release wasn't pulled which create the horseshoe that the tandem master dumped the reserve into. No matter what the problem, I have always believed that I would make sure the drogue was out and all the handles but the reserve were pulled and gone, before I pulled the reserve handle. Getting back to videographers, the one in this situation risked his life trying to save the tandem pair. I have heard too many accounts of him flying over grabbing as much canopy as he could and deploying trying to at least slow the thing down, to believe it was not true. So getting back to the thread, I would hope that if I were ever unconsicous, my videographer would be willing to do the same. With all that said, drogue release if the drogue is out, reserve if nothing is out.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #24 August 7, 2003 I think the horseshoe was caused by the fact that the bag fell out on the step of the Cessna as they were going, and lines from the main subsequently wrapped up on the legs of the tandem passenger... I used to have a picture showing the pair on exit with the lines flailing about, but I can't find it now...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #25 August 7, 2003 Quote( I am thinking of Strong gear where trap door effect is not an issue. ) Sigmas do not have a "trapdoor" effect.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
