bch7773 0 #1 March 9, 2003 One of my friends owns a Cessna, and he is always asking me if I can jump out of it. What licenses and ratings does a pilot to drop skydivers out of their plane LEGALLY in the US? I want to do it, but I want to make sure that we don't get in trouble. I don't care about if we are breaking uspa laws, since they aren't technically laws... MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 March 9, 2003 The 182 is certified to fly with out a door so as long as you file for a NOTAM that says when and where you are jumping there should'nt be any real issues. DZ's usually file just one NOTAM for the year to cover operations at their location, you'll need a special use NOTAM, I'd talk to a demo jumper in your area to discuss who to talk to, when to file it and what you need to consider in a landing area.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #3 March 9, 2003 Do you also need to install a wind deflector to fly with the door removed, or is it just helpful/optional?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #4 March 9, 2003 bch7773 didn't say what flavor of Cessna, but most all are o.k. In the back of the SIM there's a list of airplanes that can be operated with door removed, but you need to get a piece of paper from the feds. It usually contains operating limitations. A deflector is needed only for the C206, AFAIK. HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #5 March 9, 2003 thanks for the help. So as long as I file a NOTAM, does the pilot just need his basic pilot's license? And all he needs to do is just announce when the people are jumping, etc. over the radio? And I think he has a Cessna 172... is that an ok jumplane? Do we just remove the door? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #6 March 9, 2003 It has to be types for that and he will need to get it approved and recieve the restrictions to fly with no door. Usually it involves a new max speed, new min speeds and stuff like that. And you need to file paperwork with the FAA stating when and where you are going to jump. This is for all purposes a demo jump unless you are jumping into the DZ. I'd advise he recieves a briefing on what to expect with an open/removed door and seats, how to handle the loss of weight, how to fly for an exit and stuff like that. Looking at your profile it seems like you have about 50 jumps. You realy should just jump into an extablished DZ, otherwise you need to show a D licence to jump into a Class 1 demo area or a Pro rating to do any other jump. The FAA will expect to see competence if you are jumping into a non DZ.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 March 9, 2003 The pilot needs a comercial license. They have ruled on this before. Any time a pilot recieves compensation (you can split the costs and be OK) he/she must have a commercial ticket. The FAA considers flight time compensation. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #8 March 9, 2003 Could probably be done pretty easily with the door on. With a little slip the door will open enough to get out pretty easily. Not that I would do it (as either the pilot or jumper), but it could be done. I'll stick with jumping out of twin otters into DZs. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyMissy 0 #9 March 9, 2003 QuoteThe FAA considers flight time compensation. When did they rule THAT?? So there is no such thing as a private, because you receive flight time even wen you fly by yourself, let alone taking grandma for a spin. I just don't think so. No pay, or splitting the fuel, no commercial as far as I know. That flight time thing just doesn't make sense to me. No offense, Hook!________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #10 March 9, 2003 Quote When did they rule THAT?? About two weeks ago when I called the local FSDO and talked to the FAA and previously before that in a case where a private piloted had his license supsended for flying jumpers, even though he was not paid. I can look up tha case # for you. Quote So there is no such thing as a private, because you receive flight time even wen you fly by yourself, let alone taking grandma for a spin. You can split the costs of flying, but you can't drop jumpers. Quote I just don't think so. It doesn't matter what you or I think, all that matters is what the FAA thinks. Quote No pay, or splitting the fuel, no commercial as far as I know. That flight time thing just doesn't make sense to me. No offense, Hook! None taken. The FAA doesn't have to make sense (TFR's). I had to get a Chest mount rating to qualify for Master PArachute Rigger. That is gonna be real handy and makes a lot of sense. Call your local FSDO and ask. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyMissy 0 #11 March 9, 2003 Otay, otay. So you're saying the issue is jumpers and not compensation then. I can totally see the FAA trying to pull that off, but I still don't think that flying jumpers for free is any different than flying Granny free. However, you are correct, the FAA hasn't called to ask for my opinion....yet. ________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #12 March 9, 2003 QuoteAbout two weeks ago when I called the local FSDO and talked to the FAA and previously before that in a case where a private piloted had his license supsended for flying jumpers, even though he was not paid. I can look up tha case # for you. You need to understand why the FAA ruled this way in the case above. The FAA stated that since the DZ recieved compensation for the skydivers to fly in the palne and jump it was a comerical flight. It dosen't matter if the pilot was paid or not. If a private pilot takes someone up and there is no compensation to anyone like what happens at air shows when a skydiver flies in the flag, then it is OK. The last airshow I was at, I was the ground crew for the jump and was present when the FSDO rep. authorized the private piolot of the T-6 to fly the demo jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #13 March 9, 2003 QuoteCould probably be done pretty easily with the door on. With a little slip the door will open enough to get out pretty easily. My experience is that even with a vigorous slip, it's hard to get the door open more than a few inches. Getting it open far enough to exit safely is difficult, and I would be very concerned about scraping ripcords and pins across the door frame and latch. If you still insist on trying, at least take the front passenger seat out, so you'll be able to push on the aft-most part of the door, where you'll have the most leverage and most clearance for exit. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #14 March 9, 2003 I've jumped 152s and 172s with no door mods at all. It's not hard. And there are absolutely no regulations in the FARs about private pilots being forbidden from flying jumpers. There ARE regs about accepting pay to fly, and about flying for commercial purposes. But even those are complex and open to surprising interpretations. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyMissy 0 #15 March 9, 2003 QuoteThe FAA stated that since the DZ recieved compensation for the skydivers to fly in the palne and jump it was a comerical flight. Now THAT makes sense. The DZ was compensated, and compensated the pilot by letting him use THE DZ's plane for free flight time.________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #16 March 9, 2003 Yes, that makes sense. A private pilot is required to contribute his "fair share" of the expenses of the flight. Free flying is considered compensation. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #17 March 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteThe FAA considers flight time compensation. When did they rule THAT?? So there is no such thing as a private, because you receive flight time even wen you fly by yourself, let alone taking grandma for a spin. I just don't think so. No pay, or splitting the fuel, no commercial as far as I know. That flight time thing just doesn't make sense to me. No offense, Hook! For a long time pilots wanting hours towards their commercial license, used to work at Dz's for free. This is where the time=compensation rule came from. On another note we do a ton of beach jumps in Flagler from a private pilot's plane, and the only question he has been asked, and oh yeah they have asked, is "Your not getting paid for this are you" He just replied "Nope Im a skydiver and these are good friend's" And from what I believe the reason we can do the Beach jumps at the drop of a hat, is because there used to be a DZ at Flagler and they had a permit to drop on the beach, that is still open. Police showed up 2 times and when we asked they just said they thought it was cool and wanted to watch, and Oh yeah dont park your car in the grass or we will ticket you. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #18 March 10, 2003 QuoteOne of my friends owns a Cessna, and he is always asking me if I can jump out of it. What licenses and ratings does a pilot to drop skydivers out of their plane LEGALLY in the US? I want to do it, but I want to make sure that we don't get in trouble. I don't care about if we are breaking uspa laws, since they aren't technically laws... Ok, there seems to be some apples and oranges conversations in this thread. For the purpose of answering this persons questions here is what I say: Yes, it can be done legally with a private pilot license. He does not run a commercial operation for dropping jumpers. You are not paying him for it. You COULD pay for half the gas to fly the load. You pay anything more and you are compensating him. So that would require a Commercial Pilot certificate. The aircraft must be approved for flight with the door off. You have to have paperwork to fly with the door off. The operating limitations will be changed. You get this from your local FSDO. So get involved with them and they can guide you mostly. NOtice To AirMan (NOTAM)....you have to file one for every jump you do. If you are going to drop once per day then you need one notice per day. If you plan to do a series of jumps in a day you can get a block time for doing it. But they don't want you filing NOTAMs if you are not really using the airspace. This doesn't really keep everyone from flying through there. But it can give most people a heads up about your operation. Has you pilot ever drop jumpers? It can be easy with one jumper and then again there are things that can get both of you killed. Have you talked with an experienced jump pilot to get advice? Well do it. That's my advice. There's more to doing this than opening a door and jumping. There are real safety concerns that need to be addressed for your safety and the safety of the people below you. You can read my site to find some of the regulation and advisory circulars. Read the REGULATIONS section of www.DiverDriver.com.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #19 March 10, 2003 QuoteOn another note we do a ton of beach jumps in Flagler from a private pilot's plane, and the only question he has been asked, and oh yeah they have asked, is "Your not getting paid for this are you" He just replied "Nope Im a skydiver and these are good friend's" And from what I believe the reason we can do the Beach jumps at the drop of a hat, is because there used to be a DZ at Flagler and they had a permit to drop on the beach, that is still open. Police showed up 2 times and when we asked they just said they thought it was cool and wanted to watch, and Oh yeah dont park your car in the grass or we will ticket you. Ummmm, if the operation that filed the NOTAM is gone then the NOTAM is gone. You might still have a parachute symbol on the sectional map but technically it would be invalid for your jumping. So, I would recommend just filing a new notam each time you are going to jump on the beach. It's not that hard and just takes a days advance notice I believe. That's the way it was the last time I filed a NOTAM well before 9/11. Just check your local Flight Service Station about that with the NOTAM coordinator. There is a threshold that must be met for having a permanent NOTAM on a jump site. You must do about 2,000 skydives PER YEAR to get it. That according to the local FAA guy here in Chicago. He spoke at our Winter Expo last weekend.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #20 March 10, 2003 Chris - on Cessnas operated with the door off, is the pilot required to have a parachute?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #21 March 10, 2003 QuoteChris - on Cessnas operated with the door off, is the pilot required to have a parachute? It is only required if the paperwork says it is required. Some Cessna operations have paperwork that does not require it, though this is the exception rather than the rule. As far as a recommendation.....DON'T FLY A CESSNA WITH JUMPERS WITHOUT AN EMERGENCY BAILOUT RIG.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kansasskydiver 0 #22 March 10, 2003 Brian I'm going to speak as a fellow jumper and also as an instructor, you don't need to be jumping from your friends plane. Yeah it sounds cool but there are many other factors you need to keep in mind before attempting such a thing. Getting out of the plane is a serious deal when the door is on, your handles are a factor, where you place your feet (if the plane has retractable gear it's even harder), also, some planes are shorter and creates harzards for the tail etc. Your friend needs to have a comercial license to drop you and if you're jumping into a field somewhere etc you will have to hold a D license to make an open field demo jump which you don't have your A yet. He would not be able to drop you over our DZ for a couple reasons, you don't have a license, we don't know his capability, and you don't own your own gear. Club gear is to only be used at USPA member dropzones and out of certified aircraft. But regardless Brian, you don't want to start thinking about doing crazy things yet. I was the same way with 50 jumps, thought it would be cool to be a jumper in tow and all other kinds of stuff, once you start understanding the complications of jumping as your jump numbers increase you'll understand and start to slow down on the ideas. Get your A and then B, start jumping with Justin or I or a coach and we'll start teaching you fun things to do. You're a great flier, just slow it down, we dont' want to see anyone get hurt. blue skies chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #23 March 10, 2003 The Driver has spoken and I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing that up. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #24 March 10, 2003 Way good advice Chris Derek, not corrected. Just clearified.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #25 March 10, 2003 As a licensed pilot and skydiver, I've thought about doing some sort of private jump. But the more I think about it, the less sense it makes all of the time. Now it would be kind of neat if a skydiver was to do some sort of jump into a private event (a wedding, graduation party, etc, etc). But unless I'm mistaken, the skydiver still needs to have a demo endorsement to be legal. That eliminates myself at this current stage of my short skydiving career and I'm sure it would also eliminate many others (yourself included). But from a financial feasibility point of view, jumping from a friend's airplane or letting a friend jump from my plane makes no sense. Not even factoring in the need to make sure the airplane is airworthy for this sort of operation, getting the necessary permission from the governing aviation body (the FAA as an example), paying for the flight and recovering the jumper from whatever location they land in seems like way more of a hassle then paying the $20 (or whatever it costs for us to jump) to go to my favorite dropzone(s) and jump out of one of their airplanes. It costs me at least $100/hour wet to rent an airplane powerful enough to get one or two skydivers to full jump altitude and the jumpers would be lucky to get one jump in for that hour. In the meantime I could do five jumps at a commercial dropzone for the same $100. Just my two cents ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
