Pin checks in the plane

[sunshine 2]

Do you still ask for a pin check? I ask this because yesterday a relatively newbie jumper (around 50ish jumps) asked me to do a pin check for him. When i opened his main flap i saw his pin barely in the closing loop. I have no doubt he would've had a premature deployment if he didn't get a pin check. I must admit that in all the times i've done pin checks for people, i've never found anything that serious. After pushing his pin through his closing loop, i told him getting the pin check just saved him from what could've been a very bad situation.

I must admit that i don't often ask for a pin check myself, but now i've changed my mind. Just cause your pin was in place on the ground, doesn't mean it didn't shift around in the plane. Be safe out there and get a pin check prior to exiting the plane!!

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[skymama 35]

I always see the teams doing pin checks, but not as many fun jumpers doing it.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[petetheladd 0]

Do you know if he did a pin check before putting the rig on ?

Well, anyone who does'nt should start doing so

No, Not without incident

[Hooknswoop 19]

Pins checks are a double-edged sword. If someone isn't familiar with your rig, they may make things worse. Teams can get pin checks with confidence, knowing that their teammate knows your rig and what you want under your flaps.

A newbie may have heard something wrong, and apply that incorrect information to your rig during a pin check. Experienced jumpers may not be familiar with your rig and how it should be set up. If they are familiar with your rig, then a pin check can do more harm than good.

I rely on not brushing my rig agaist anything and can reach back far enough to check my own pins. I have sat the entire ride to altitude with my hand over my main pin because the person behind won't stop moving and brushing against it.

Some rigs stay closed better with the main flap tucked between the side flaps instead of under them. I have seen people use this to keep their rig more secure, only to have someone put the main flap under both side flaps after checking their pin.

Don't give someone a pin check unless they ask you too and ask them exactly what they want checked and how they like their gear. If you find something, tell the jumper what you have found before fixing it.

Derek

[davelepka 4]

Everytime I see a newer jumper not getting a pin check, I will ask them if they had one. "Uh, no" is the usual response.

If you haven't seen your pin since you put your rig on, who knows what's going on back there, after the ride to altitude, getting up and moving around in the plane etc. By not checking this (or having someone check it for you, you are putting others at risk for no reason.

This brings up another point. Cecking someone's pin without asking them first is a big no-no. My rig is very small, and I can check my pin myself (and I do, usually between 4 and 6 times). I have no window for checking my kill line, so that is not a factor. People do need to understand that touching another jumpers rig without asking is BAD. Some people do not feel comfortable with an unknown person touching their gear, and they will ask a trusted friend or instructor to do the check.

Along the same lines are the jumpers who will sit on the floor of the Otter, and not get up when they see all the other jumpers around them getting up for gear checks. Aside from being irresponsible of them (not cheching your gear proir to exit endangers you and the jumpers around you), this is inconsiderate to those to those trying do the right thing as a sitting jumper takes up more room than those on thier knees.

[darkwing 4]

While I am sensitive to the issue of having a newbie/unknown check pins, I think it borders on insane to not get one from somebody. I realize that some people can check their own main pins, but can they check their own reserve pins??

Just this summer I gave a check, on jump run, to a guy who had NOT asked for one. His reserve pin was only 1/8 inch past the loop, and had already cleared one side of the grommet. He was front floater too.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[billvon 2,427]

>If you haven't seen your pin since you put your rig on, who knows
> what's going on back there, after the ride to altitude, getting up and
> moving around in the plane etc.

Hmm. You never know for sure, but you can get a good idea. My reserve pin is not checkable, but it's next to impossible to mess with it. Before exit I always check that my main pin cover is closed and that there's a pin in the loop (I can do that by feel.) If I feel that, the odds that something bizarre happened to the pin while the pin cover was closed is pretty slim. Often, when I'm organizing a group of 50-jump people, I feel more confident checking my own gear than asking one of them for a check. Other jumpers, while checking my gear, have pushed and pulled on my pin and bridle to get it to the position they feel is best, and I hate that. OTOH if I'm doing a wingsuit jump with Scott Smith I'll have no problem asking him for a pin check.

[jlmiracle 7]

I am amazed how many people have eyes in the back of their head to give themselves a pin check. We are talking pin checks right, not flap checks, not bridle checks, pin checks.

How many pre-matures or malfunctions have there been because someone DID receive a pin check? How many have probably been prevented by getting a pin check.

I like to get a pin check, especially if there is a student on board to set a good example. Many students mimic what they see. If they see their instructors not wearing helmets during taxi and take off, they figure why should they once they are off student status. They don't think they are a tard and going to hit their head. If their instructors don't wear a seatbelt, why should they. I jumped with students that have over 300 jumps now and still wear their helmet getting on the plane, during taxi and take off.

It would help if all the "experts" out there would help set good examples to students and maybe we could improve on overall safety.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 2,427]

>How many pre-matures or malfunctions have there been because
>someone DID receive a pin check?

At least two that I know of. In one a jumper "wiggled" the other jumper's pin because he thought it was too far in. The pin came out and the container opened near the (half open) door. Fortunately it did not deploy.

In the second one a jumper pushed the other jumper's pin in so far that it was past the "bump" on the loop, thus causing a PC in tow. The checker swears she didn't do that, but that's what the jumper found when he looked at the pin. The loop was very loose to begin with.

Gear checks should be just that - checks. All too often, though, people treat them as opportunities to adjust another jumper's gear.

>I like to get a pin check, especially if there is a student on board to
>set a good example.

Me too. Unfortunately there are not always people I consider qualified in the plane next to me to do so; if it's a choice between me, my level 7 student and four freeflyers I don't know it's going to be me.

[andy2 0]

ive started asking for main pin checks only, because 9 times out of 10 that someone checks my reserve pin they will give it a good whack which I think is the stupidest habit that one can have, especially during a *safety check*.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[PhreeZone 15]

I can and do reach around, open the flaps and can feel the loop and the pin. I've pointed my pin up more then once this way. Its not that hard as long as your flexible enough to reach back.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jlmiracle 7]

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At least two that I know of. In one a jumper "wiggled" the other jumper's pin because he thought it was too far in. The pin came out and the container opened near the (half open) door. Fortunately it did not deploy.

In the second one a jumper pushed the other jumper's pin in so far that it was past the "bump" on the loop, thus causing a PC in tow. The checker swears she didn't do that, but that's what the jumper found when he looked at the pin. The loop was very loose to begin with.

Gear checks should be just that - checks. All too often, though, people treat them as opportunities to adjust another jumper's gear.

reply]

Holy crap! Okay we have something else to work on. How to give a proper gear and pin check. When I check, I LOOK at the pin and in window on the pilot chute bridle. I don't touch the pin or bridle unless I can't see it or if something looks wrong, at that point, I always ask for a second opinion.

I have personally never heard of gear/pin checks being a problem, but I am for damn sure going to be very thorough when explaining to new jumpers how to give a proper gear check. These are good examples for me to use on what not to do. Thank you Bill.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

• Quote

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I am amazed how many people have eyes in the back of their head to give themselves a pin check.

I don't need 'eyes in the back of my head' to check my pins. I can feel where the pins are in relation to the loop w/o having to look at it. I can do this, for the main and reserve, w/o opening the flap. I pack for myself and I'm not worried about forgetting tio cock my PC. I can check for exposed bridle by feel.

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How many pre-matures or malfunctions have there been because someone DID receive a pin check?

I have seen main and reserve flaps closed incorrectly by someone giving a pin check. I have seen people slide the main pin so that is isn't fully seated in the closing loop. I have seen people break reserve seals by not being careful during a pin check.

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If they see their instructors not wearing helmets during taxi and take off, they figure why should they once they are off student status.

I always wear my helmet for take off and remind others to do the same if they haven't put them on by the time the pilot runs up the engine(s) for takeoff.

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It would help if all the "experts" out there would help set good examples to students and maybe we could improve on overall safety.

I am extremely careful with my rig and am always aware of what my rig is resting against in the airplan and if anyone disturbs it/brushes against it. i have never had a problem a pin check could have fixed or caught.

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their instructors don't wear a seatbelt, why should they.

I always wear my seat belt, usually longer than most in the aircraft. I laugh when people take off their seat belts at 500 ft AGL. I remind others to connect their seatbelt prior to take off and have them fix their seat belt if it is possible they could slide out from under it in the event of a crash.

90% of the problems pin checks catch where there when the jumper put the rig on on the ground and should have been cought before they put on their rig. Another 9% of the problems a pin check could fix, could have been prevented if the jumper put their gear on correctly or checked their gear after putting it on. Maybe 1% of the problems a pin check would fix come from riding in the aircraft, and probably 99% of that 1% could have been prevented by being careful with your rig and with other's rigs.

Derek

[davelepka 4]

If you read on in my post you'll see that I address the issues you had concern with. I too do my own pin checks, and do not like others touching my gear.

It's the group of 50 jump wonders you are with which gives me concern. Do they know the importance of a pin check? Have they been aware and careful not to drag their large bulky rig all over the plane? Was their rig closed properly in the first place? Do they know how to give a proper pin check (which includes knowing to pass on checking a rig they have not been trained to check)?

Even more expereinced jumpers can become complacent with the pin check situation. Those who have not had a premature opening, or horseshoe, or pilot chute in tow, may let the pin check slide from time to time, but they should keep in mind that if their stuff comes out in the door, it can rip the tail off the plane, and kill them and most or all of the people still in the plane. Scary stuff.

People who know how to check pins need to do so. They also need to watch for people who haven't gotten a check, or people who are doing the checks wrong. Extra work? Yes. Pain in the ass? Yes. Worth the trouble? Yes.

[Fast 0]

I ussualy ask one of the people sitting near me to take a look. Most of the people on the plane are more experienced than me (at 40 jumps) and I am jumping a vec3 that belongs to the DZ. Being that they are pretty damn simple to look at most people will. I myself would only feel comfortable looking at another vector because thats all that I have jumped, and the only gear that I am quite familiar with.

What I have been asked is if all the flaps are closed, and if they are the people take that as an indicator that thier gear is in good shap. Being the case that they looked at it before getting on the plane, and if the flaps haven't came open there isn't much that could have happend to the pin.

Does that mean I am going to stop getting a pin check and follow that mentality, I don't know.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[sunshine 2]

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It's the group of 50 jump wonders you are with which gives me concern. Do they know the importance of a pin check?

Definately agree with that. I guess i'm concerned that the newer jumpers will notice the up-jumpers not doing pin checks and they'll get too embarrased to ask for one on themselves.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[nightjumps 1]

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I rely on not brushing my rig agaist anything and can reach back far enough to check my own pins. I have sat the entire ride to altitude with my hand over my main pin because the person behind won't stop moving and brushing against it.

Man, if you only knew how much it chaps me when I'm on a plane and people start getting fidgety and dancing around the plane without being cognizant of what they're doing. I've had them brush my pin, my hackey, my cutaway & reserve handles, etc. On more than one occassion, I've had to turn to the person and say, "Bro, could you have some respect for another's rig while going up?"

It's like some mathematical formula of; for each 1000 feet of altitude, the adrenaline goes up at a factor of 2:1 and the fidgety disrespect for other's rigs about 4:1.

On one occasion this guy was bouncing around and sweating so profusely, I asked him how high he was going and he of course said, "13.5." I told him, "Well, if you don't settle down, the altitude your gonna get is what's on your altimeter right now."

Glad its not just me. Respect each other's rigs folks.

[jlmiracle 7]

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It's the group of 50 jump wonders you are with which gives me concern. Do they know the importance of a pin check?

Definately agree with that. I guess i'm concerned that the newer jumpers will notice the up-jumpers not doing pin checks and they'll get too embarrased to ask for one on themselves.

Exactly Sunshine. Newer jumpers will do what the "experienced" jumpers are doing or are not doing. Let's try to change that. Seriously.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[The111 1]

Well I'm a self-proclaimed 50 jump wonder, but I don't get pin checks, not because of what I've watched other jumpers do, but because of what I've thought through in my own head, and I am glad to find out that experienced people like Hook and Bill think the same way.

I check my pins before putting the rig on. I am very careful about my position and movements in the plane. I've spent time on the ground convincing myself that I can feel for flap closure, pin location, and bridle/PC exposure with my own hand. I don't really like the idea of having to rely on someone else to dick around back there, but if I do bump a wall too hard or get kicked or kneed in the plane, I will ask someone who I trust to take a look. Like Hook said (kind of), if you have a tight loop, a flap which stays closed, and you don't make any stupid body movements on the plane, your pin is not going to jump around on its own accord. That's my opinion, and I know I'm not a very experienced jumper but I am an experienced thinker, and I feel better following that train of thought than asking the stranger behind me for a check.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[jlmiracle 7]

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Like Hook said (kind of), if you have a tight loop, a flap which stays closed, and you don't make any stupid body movements on the plane, your pin is not going to jump around on its own accord. That's my opinion, and I know I'm not a very experienced jumper but I am an experienced thinker, and I feel better following that train of thought than asking the stranger behind me for a check.

Please define stupid body movement. I don't know what kind of planes you jump from but ours are crowded. I cannot sit on the airplane without touching someone else or the side or the floor. I've seen carpet grab hackeys and bridle.
I would never ask somone I don't know to give me a pin check or gear check. But since you know better, i guess you will be just fine.

I'm sorry, but what you just posted scares the crap out of me that people actually think that way. That they can "feel" where everything is and everything "feels" perfect. I would like to test that theory (on the gound, of course) at sometime with any willing takers.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[davelepka 4]

There are enough world class skydivers on satff in Deland to fill the Otter and the Skyvan at the same time. Additionally, there are countless numbers of teams training there at any one time, whose members have 10 times, or 100 times the experience you do. Grow up and get a pin check.

When you have thousands of jumps, and years in the sport, go ahead and do things your own way. For now , realize that you are engaged in an activity which can kill you (and others). Respect it, and your position in it, and get a freakin' pin check. (I'm glad I don't find myself in DeLand much anymore).

[sunshine 2]

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I would never ask somone I don't know to give me a pin check or gear check.

Me neither. When i do get a pin check, i ask someone i know and trust. I've tried the method of reaching around to feel my own pin and i just can't do it. Plus the fact that i always wear gloves will make it even harder for me to feel my own pin.

After what i saw yesterday, i finally know the value of getting a pin check. With the exit we were planning and it being a 182...a premature on the step would've been a very bad thing. I'm just thankful the guy asked for the pin check. I realize pin checks are not for everyone, but in this particular case it prevented what could've been a bad incident. Just wanted to make others aware of it. I love the sport and i love my "sky family" just wanna keep everyone safe.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[The111 1]

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Please define stupid body movement. I don't know what kind of planes you jump from but ours are crowded. I cannot sit on the airplane without touching someone else or the side or the floor. I've seen carpet grab hackeys and bridle.
I would never ask somone I don't know to give me a pin check or gear check. But since you know better, i guess you will be just fine.

When moving, I keep my rig from touching anything. When I sit down and it comes into contact with the floor, I keep my hand around the BOC and main flap to make sure nothing is catching anywhere. If the person behind me fidgets a lot, I keep my hand back there the whole time, as someone else mentioned in this thread. Carpet doesn't have fingers and can't "grab." Friction will pull on anything, but I the first sentence of this post describes how I combat that. If you're sliding around with your hackey sandwiched between you and carpet, you probably do need a pin check. I never claimed to know better than you or anyone, I just expressed my opinion. No idea why people on this forum always get sarcastic and attacking.

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I'm sorry, but what you just posted scares the crap out of me that people actually think that way. That they can "feel" where everything is and everything "feels" perfect. I would like to test that theory (on the gound, of course) at sometime with any willing takers.

As I said, I HAVE tested this out. In front of a mirror. I've put my rig on, bumped up against shit, felt it all with my hand, then took it off to see what it looks like. I've used double mirrors to watch myself feel stuff and see what my hand is actually feeling with my eyes. I've allowed bridle/PC/pins to be in less than optimal positions and FIXED it blindly, then taken the rig off to check. NOTE: If I had ANY reason to believe on the plane that shit wasn't in order, I wouldn't try to fix it blindly. But the fact that I CAN (as a test, on the ground) makes me a little more comfortable with my ability to at least feel that shit IS in order. And I know what kind of pressures and movements it takes to push shit out of order, and I avoid that on the plane. I have access to all of my senses to be aware if something weird is happening to my rig. Take your own rig, and see how difficult it is to dislodge (or even move a little) the main pin (with rig on your back), with the flap closed. It is pretty easy to ensure your flap stays closed and your bridle and PC stay in their proper locations, on the plane. Just my opinion.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[davelepka 4]

I did state in an earlier post that I do my own pin checks, but I have almost 2000 jumps on the same rig, and am VERY familiar with it.. When I borrow a rig, weather I can reach the pin or not, I always ask someone for a pin check. Always.

[Chrisky 0]

Well, i usually ask for a pin check when i am not 100% sure if it's still in place.
Like maybe when i did a "fat" pack job and the flap is sticking up a bit, or something that way. But i only ask people of whom i know they know what a pin check has to be done like, there's no use in asking someone incapable of it to do it, he will, at worst, only make it worse.

There are a few things that play a side role on this.

One thing is the loop. You should always have a proper pressure on it, so the pin won't come loose by itself nor that it can be pushed through the loop (as seen on safety and training recently).

The other thing is, and that is something you don't see a lot, that you take care of your flaps, handles etc while moving in the plane. Personally, i always put my hand over the BOC/Hackey when turning around, so that it's protected against snagging somewhere as well as i can feel it if i touch something. The other hand covers the cutaway and release handles if not otherwise needed.

Only recently i saw someone ride down with the plane bcause his Reserve pin slipped out. He said he had sat down right on an edge and the edge had pushed the pin up. From knowing that person i didn't believe him, i believe he didn't even check his rig before he jumped.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...