Freefalling and midair collisons with an aircraft questions...

[BravestDog 0]

When skydivers are in freefall with each other...do they look for airplanes, ultralights... that just might be lost and flying through the dropzone airspace...?

Or do skydivers just jump and enjoy the view and pay attention to the people around them?

thanks

[aneblett 0]

where do you jump?

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[JohnnyD 0]

Always be on the lookout - especially for birds. They are the worst.

[Zenister 0]

its always entertaining watching the F16s from Luke AFB blaze thru what was just your airspace as your wrapping up your lines...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[bclark 0]

I have seen BIG airplanes pretty close in freefall, although never close enough to be scary. Early this spring I was taking a tandem out of our Twin Bonanza, and looked out the door to see a 757 about 1/4 mile to the west and maybe 500 feet below us, flying the same direction. It was a very cool visual. I can only hope that ATC was advising the pilot of the 757 of our position in time that he could tell his passengers, because they would have easily been able to see us exiting the aircraft and falling by.

[Tilion 0]

My, you sure have a lot of questions (looking at some of the other topics now). But they are all very interesting questions. I don't think a skydiver has actually ever collided with an airplane, or am I wrong? I do remember seeing a movieclip of a skydiver being swept by a bomber. That must have been pretty scary. I don't think there's a whole lot you can do about an airplane coming at you, then again the odds are so minute. I'd say enjoy the ride and take into consideration your fellow skydivers. But that's more like kicking in an open door.

[JumpCrazy 0]

Quote

I don't think a skydiver has actually ever collided with an airplane, or am I wrong? I do remember seeing a movieclip of a skydiver being swept by a bomber. That must have been pretty scary.

pretty scary is right: Bomber

Flying Hellfish #470

[Kris 0]

Quote

I don't think a skydiver has actually ever collided with an airplane, or am I wrong?

There was a skydiver / glider collision in England. I think it was last year?

As for other traffic, this is where good spotting comes in. You shouldn't just look to see if you'll make it back to the DZ. You should also be looking for other traffic in your airspace before getting out of the airplane.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Zenister 0]

there was one 6 way FF dive last year where we started to climb out and the front float looked down, freaked and crawled back in...looking down we could see why, there was another plane under us..

unfortunately the 8 way belly in front had already left..

the pilot called as soon as we relayed the message to him and the other plane changed course, but the 8 way's video was a bit frightning, even though they werent really close.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

When skydivers are in freefall with each other...do they look for airplanes, ultralights... that just might be lost and flying through the dropzone airspace...?

Or do skydivers just jump and enjoy the view and pay attention to the people around them?

thanks

You better look out for other aircraft. NTSB report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X13693&key=1

NTSB Identification: BFO94FA015 . The docket is stored in the (offline) NTSB Imaging System.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, November 21, 1993 in NORTHAMPTON, MA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 1/11/95
Aircraft: PIPER PA-28-161, registration: N3011F
Injuries: 4 Fatal.

A PIPER PA-28, N3011F, WAS IN VFR CRUISE FLIGHT HEADING EASTBOUND AT ABOUT 5700' MSL, AS A CESSNA 210 (PARACHUTE JUMP PLANE) HAD JUST COMPLETED A CLEARING TURN TO A WESTBOUND HEADING, INTO THE SUN, AT 7300' MSL. A PARACHUTIST JUMPED FROM THE JUMP PLANE & STRUCK THE VERTICAL STABILIZER OF THE PA-28 AFTER A FEW SECONDS OF FREE FALL. CONTROL OF THE PA-28 WAS LOST, & IT CRASHED IN AN UNCONTROLLED DESCENT. THE JUMP PLANE WAS IN RADAR & RADIO COMMUNICATION WITH AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC) IN ORDER TO RECEIVE TRAFFIC ADVISORIES PER THE FAA ATC CONTROLLER'S HANDBOOK. THE PA-28 WAS RECORDED ON RADAR. NO ADVISORIES WERE ISSUED TO THE JUMP PLANE AFTER THE PILOT CALLED '1 MINUTE PRIOR TO JUMP.' TESTS SHOWED THAT ONE TRANSCEIVER IN THE PA-28 WAS TUNED TO 120.30 MHZ; A WARNING FOR PARACHUTE JUMPING WAS GIVEN OVER THIS FREQUENCY. A 1/8' PARACHUTE SYMBOL (COLORED BLUE) WAS DEPICTED ON THE SECTIONAL CHART AND WAS SUPERIMPOSED OVER A RIVER (ALSO COLORED BLUE). THE CONTROLLER WAS RECEIVING ON-THE-JOB TRAINING FROM A FULL PERFORMANCE CONTROLLER.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

FAILURE OF THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC) FACILITY TO IDENTIFY AND PROVIDE THE REQUIRED TRAFFIC INFORMATION TO THE JUMP AIRCRAFT BEFORE RELEASE OF THE JUMPER(S). A FACTOR RELATED TO THE ACCIDENT WAS: INADEQUATE VISUAL LOOKOUT BY THE PILOT OF THE JUMP AIRCRAFT.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[mikkey 0]

Some examples mentioned in posts above. My own personal experience was in the late 70's at a small DZ in Europe not far from a military airport. I did a "style" jump from around 8-9 K and a "Phantom" passed right under me while I was in free fall. Me around 5-6 K - Phantom around 3 K. I could feel the turbulence. Scary shit - I nearly needed new underwear... a few phone calls were made straight after (DZ was restricted air space).

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikeat10500 10]

Quote

I don't think a skydiver has actually ever collided with an airplane, or am I wrong?

Oh yea...big time. I remember an a few years back when a C182 passed through a DZ in the states(I think) with the pilot unaware of the NOTAM. The C182
was carrying a doctor,his son,a friend, and the sons girl friend when a solo skydiver struck the horizontal
stabilizer breaking his leg. He managed to pull and watch the A/C spin in.
...mike

I have done some reading after posting this and
believe this is the same accident that Chris more accurately reported. Wow that was ten years ago!

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[skylord 1]

Quote

I have seen BIG airplanes pretty close in freefall, although never close enough to be scary. Early this spring I was taking a tandem out of our Twin Bonanza, and looked out the door to see a 757 about 1/4 mile to the west and maybe 500 feet below us, flying the same direction. It was a very cool visual. I can only hope that ATC was advising the pilot of the 757 of our position in time that he could tell his passengers, because they would have easily been able to see us exiting the aircraft and falling by.

This situation is a big no no for us controllers. That 757 never should have been there. We don't run aircraft into hot dropzones. Chris posted the link for the 1993 accident with the Cherokee Warrior. There is another source, too. It's the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System Database. Here is the link to the Aircraft/Parachutist Conflict section:

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report_sets/parachute.pdf

Knowledge is power.

Bob

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[pilotdave 0]

I did my initial flight training at Northampton Airport in MA where the skydiver hit the plane. Years later, after I started skydiving, I found myself flying straight toward that airport on a sunny sunday afternoon listening to a different frequency. It didn't take me long to realize that was a bad idea. But If I hadn't heard about that accident and wasn't a skydiver, I probably would have flown right over without thinking twice.

In theory ATC should have informed the skydiving plane of the traffic. But that plane could have been miles away when the jumpship was on the jump run. That skydiver sued the air traffic control and won. I don't agree with that ruling, but whatever. He broke his leg and everyone on the plane was killed. I think it was an amazing fluke that they shared the same airspace at the same time, so to speak. I pretty much think it's impossible for skydivers to focus on a jump and look for traffic, and I think it's futile for pilots to try to spot freefallers.

It's all about looking for traffic before jumping, and hoping pilots are smart enough to not fly over dropzones above 3000 feet when there might be jumping going on (parachutes are easy to spot and avoid).

Dave

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

We don't run aircraft into hot dropzones.

Bob

Oh they don't huh? Wanna tell that to some of the controllers at Chicago Center? Most are great but there are a few I have to really watch out for. We don't skydive at O'Hare so why does O'Hare traffic have to be vectored (yes vectored because the standard arrival is plenty far enough away) into our airspace during busy jumping operations? It's rhetorical really. We all have to see and avoid. There are ways to tell ahead of time if they are coming our way. If we hear an airliner check on and get a vector for ORD I know they are most likely coming my way. So I time it and watch for them to go by before I drop.

Here's the NASA ASRS link made clicky: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report_sets/parachute.pdf

Excellent reading for all and can also be found on my site DiverDriver.com

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[EricaH 0]

I jump @ a dz that shares an airport w/ a glider operation. We ALWAYS have to look out the door before exiting, from the first group to the last person. There have been many near misses, which just shows that you do have to be aware below & to the side of you since people in FF are basically impossible to spot by a pilot.

Many of the glider pilots have shared stories of suddenly being face to face w/ a canopy that appeared out of no where when the skydiver opened.

We're also right in the middle of a landing set up line for O'Hara & Midway... seen many jets flying overhead when we're on the ground. But they're all pretty far away when we're on jumprun... guess ATC is doing their job well. I can't imagine what a slip up would cause though.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[riggerrob 561]

Good jump pilots announce their intentions on the radio and good skydivers look out the door before they jump.
Watching for other aircraft while in freefall is difficult and there is not much you can do to prevent a collision, beyond opening high.
It is easy for skydivers and professional pilots to share airspace and incredibly dangerous to share airspace with amateur pilots.
As for skydivers and gliders sharing airspace ... I have shared airspace with the best glider pilots and the worst glider pilots. I have jumped at several European DZs where everyone was professional enough to fly their assigned patterns and we never even got close.
On the other hand, I have shared airspace with some Southern California glider pilots who proudly exercised their God-given right to fly with their heads up their anuses!
Despite repeated meetings and agreements on who had which airspace, the tow pilot insisted on towing gliders 1/64 of an inch outside the edge of the skydivers' student landing area! I also flew my canopy over more gliders than I care to remember.

I want to emphasis that it is usually bungling amateur weekend pilots that cause near misses. At Snohomish, Washington, I found the quickest way to clear the air was to announce on the local unicom frequency that "some idiot in a blue and white Citabria is flying through an active dropzone."
Here at Pitt Meadows, we have an excellent working relationship with air traffic controllers. The Pitt Meadows VOR is part of the STARS approach to Vancouver International Airport, and dozens of airliners fly over every day. Since two of the controllers are retired skydivers and the third just ordered a new Odyssey, they often re-route airliners a bit North or a bit South of our DZ.
If you listen long enough on the radio and keep your eyes outside the plane, you start to recognize a pattern. Usually the controllers wait until the airliner is past the Pitt River bidge before they clear us onto jump run. That puts us in freefall a good 10 miles behind the airliner, etc.
In conclusion, the key to avoiding freefall collisions is operating your DZ in a professional manner. Hound the air authorities until they publish your location on the charts, meet with local ATC, glider, EAA, etc. groups to reach agreements on who uses which airspace, fly your assigned patterns and fly/jump with your eyes open.

[tbrown 26]

I don't think a skydiver has actually ever collided with an airplane, or am I wrong?

[cloud9 0]

There was a jumer killed in San Marcus I think a year or two ago that hit the trailing plane in a large formation skydive. Very sad!