Tandam Progression or AFF

[feuergnom 22]

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How does tandem progression teach you better canopy control?

like i tried to explain in my post (sorry if i got sucked to deep off topic to make myself understood clearly): The point is that you are strapped to a trained pilot who is able to give direct input whilst in freefall without the student having to focus on a left or right hand teacher. and after opening you have direct communication and feedback. imo this is the best way to learn landing patterns. cause in theory it's always easier than in the real (had to find out this by myself)
in danger of repeating myself: i'm nearing my 200th jump and i think i can handle my canopy fairly well but i havent even explored all the depths and possibilities it has. but some students just finishing their tandem progession and getting their licenses have the flying skills i had with say a hundred jumps.

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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[Tonto 1]

OK... but then why all the paranoia about small canopies, Ron?

A wise man (Well, I thought he was wise. Still do actually) once said...

"Take the fuc*king rule book and throw it away. Let people teach themselves, and jump what the fuc* they want, and do what the fuc* they want. Anyone left alive after 5 years is a skydiver."

Mind you, he and Dan BC have a story to tell about the world meet in 1991...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[diverdriver 5]

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This was also told to me by my martial arts teacher...so I don't think it is a "Roger Original".

Umm....that's who I heard it from. Was giving credit that I didn't come up with it. Obviously. Oh, and Roger was into martial arts too. Hmmmmm....connection?

[diverdriver 5]

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OK... but then why all the paranoia about small canopies, Ron?


t

You know, you got a point there Tonto.

[Ron 7]

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OK... but then why all the paranoia about small canopies, Ron?

What is this in relation to?

I am not paraniod about small canopies...I had an 88 before the FX was released, and did several jumps on the 69, when there were only 3 or so that small.

I have 2,000 jumps on a ST107.

I just think people should not be allowed to do whatever they please, until they can prove it.

And in this case, I think the Tandem progression brings people into the sport that would not any other way...And I don't really think that is a good thing.

So in what way am I canopy paraniod?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rendezvous 0]

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I personally think that if you have to have someone hold your hand to jump....That its not for you.

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So what would be your views on an AFF student who overcome with anxiety screws up his first one or two levels and heads out to the tunnel, comes back with excellent skills and a lot of confidence to perform near perfect Skydives on his remaining AFF Vs someone who actually works to overcome this anxiety and fear in actual skydives but passes the AFF in some 15 to 20 jumps with moderate flying skills.

Which of these two do you think the sport is really ment for ?

[Tonto 1]

"So in what way am I canopy paraniod? "

You don't want people to do tandem cos it makes them dependant - but you don't want people to be independant in their choice of main canopy, thus making them dependant on other people's choices.

Just giving you a rev... I agree on the canopy thing - just want to see how you justify the diametrically opposed points of view.
t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 7]

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You don't want people to do tandem cos it makes them dependant - but you don't want people to be
independant in their choice of main canopy, thus making them dependant on other people's choices

You got me all wrong....

I don't want dependent skydivers.

However, you can jump whatever canopy you want....AFTER you have shown the skill to handle it. If a guy with 100 jumps has shown that he has the knowledge,skill and maturity to handle a 1.9 loaded X braced pocket rocket...Cool.

My issue is they should have to prove they can handle it...not just be able to afford it.

Not opposite view points. Different points totally.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

The same...

One guy used the tunnel...One did it the hard way.

But both did it without someone holding their hands.

They had help, but THEY did it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

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The same...

One guy used the tunnel...One did it the hard way.

But both did it without someone holding their hands.

They had help, but THEY did it.

You know Ron, I think we sometimes forget what it's like to be a first time jumper. I think most first time jumpers don't think of a tandem as "having someone hold their hand". I think they see Tandem as a skydive like any other and don't know much about the sport unless they get into it or are told by someone in the sport that their hand is being held. I don't believe they are having their hand held but I won't convince you of that. They made the decision to come make a jump. They filled out the waiver saying they understand they could get hurt or killed on that jump. I'm sure they realise how real it is.

Also, having worked at both types of DZs (with tandem progression and without) I'd say there are more qualified skydivers coming out of the AFP program than came out of the S/L AFF prgram where I have been before. I completely disagree that tandem jumping itself is harming our sport. It may be the way some choose to utilize tandem. But it is not the tandem jump itself. I can't see 2 tandem jumps as being all that earth shattering in the grand skeem of things. If someone goes on to their AFP levels and shows signs of not being able to handle the gravity of the sport (no pun intended) then they can still be asked to leave.

We have a jumper who did something like 50 S/L jumps. (that may be a bit exagerated but it was really a lot of s/l jumps.) He does freefall now but only very limited RW. He stuck with it though and I consider him to be less of a hazard to himself and others than some people who pass 7 levels of AFF and think they have a clue about this sport.

Your arguements about Tandem teaching dependency are the same arguements I heard years ago why people should go AFF instead of S/L since "the rope" teaches dependancy too. If someone is dependant by being attached to a person in freefall then a S/L jumper is dependant because he is attached to the plane. Period.

Course, I don't believe S/L students are dependant but that's how I see your arguement. You still have to have stones to climb out on the step and let go. I just don't like seeing Tandem being given a bad wrap. It's a tool. Nothing more.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Ron 7]

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You know Ron, I think we sometimes forget what it's like to be a first time jumper.

No I do remember...And the one time I forgot...I did a BASE jump.

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I think most first time
jumpers don't think of a tandem as "having someone hold their hand". I think they see Tandem as a skydive
like any other and don't know much about the sport unless they get into it or are told by someone in the
sport that their hand is being held.

No, I think Tandem is a GREAT thing for this sport. I just don't think Tandem progression is that good of a method. But I have seen several versions of it...from, I guess you guys do two? To 4 Tandems.

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I completely disagree that tandem jumping itself is harming our sport.

And I NEVER said that...Hell, I have a tandem rating. I think it is a good thing for the sport. I personally think everyone should do one tandem, then go AFF, or SL.

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It may be the way some
choose to utilize tandem. But it is not the tandem jump itself.

And I agree...Its not the tandem jump, but sometimes the reason that people go Tandem.

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If someone goes on to their AFP levels and shows signs of
not being able to handle the gravity of the sport (no pun intended)

You should have intended it...It was damn funny.

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We have a jumper who did something like 50 S/L jumps. (that may be a bit exagerated but it was really a
lot of s/l jumps.) He does freefall now but only very limited RW. He stuck with it though and I consider him
to be less of a hazard to himself and others than some people who pass 7 levels of AFF and think they
have a clue about this sport.

Oh I agree...Students are passed WAY to fast today. But If my program was 20 jumps...and yours was only 7...I bet some people would go to you thinking its "better"

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Your arguements about Tandem teaching dependency are the same arguements I heard years ago why
people should go AFF instead of S/L since "the rope" teaches dependancy too. If someone is dependant by
being attached to a person in freefall then a S/L jumper is dependant because he is attached to the plane.
Period.

Or the AFF guy is dependant on two guys saving his life?

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I just don't like seeing Tandem being given a bad wrap.
It's a tool. Nothing more.

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Again, I am NOT giving Tandem a bad rap...I am however saying I don't like the fact that it can be used as an instructional aid to help people that don't have the confidence to learn without the aid.

Tandems are good for a first jump....I don't see much use for them after that. And this is the differance between us. Not really a big differance...But I just don't see the need for more than one tandem jump.

I guess thats why the make grape AND strawberry jam huh? Not everything is for everyone.

Agin...I LIKE Tandem...I don't have a problem with Tandems...I just don't see them as a very good way of instruction.

But then again...I like SL...And since its not cost effective for the DZ they are not done much anymore...

So I could be way off.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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[diverdriver 5]

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Tandems are good for a first jump....I don't see much use for them after that. And this is the differance between us. Not really a big differance

True dat.

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I guess thats why the make grape AND strawberry jam huh? Not everything is for everyone.

Agin...I LIKE Tandem...I don't have a problem with Tandems...I just don't see them as a very good way of instruction.

But then again...I like SL...And since its not cost effective for the DZ they are not done much anymore...

So I could be way off.

I know what you are saying. Endless tandems may not teach the student much. We do 2 tandems at SDC at the beginning of the AFP program. We used to do 3 because that was what the USPA approved for allowing Tandems to lead to one JM jumps. Roger knew that 3 was just too much and there was the issue with the original student harnesses being uncomfortable. 2 TMs seemed more appropriate so that's what we do now. I guess you could say that Roger agreed with you that Tandem was a tool but only to a certain point. So can you really call it Tandem progression if we only do 2 now? That might have been a better question for me to ask rather than going down this long road.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Ron 7]

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We do 2 tandems at SDC
at the beginning of the AFP program. We used to do 3 because that was what the USPA approved for
allowing Tandems to lead to one JM jumps. Roger knew that 3 was just too much and there was the issue
with the original student harnesses being uncomfortable. 2 TMs seemed more appropriate so that's what
we do now. I guess you could say that Roger agreed with you that Tandem was a tool but only to a
certain point.

I could see two if the student screwed up (Like forgot to pull the stingy thingy, or just could not get the grasp of canopy flight).

But 2 is not that bad. I have seen programs that have 3 and 4 Tandems...It just seems like a waste.

Again, I like the way Roger did things. I am sure he had his reasons for two.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Tonto 1]

"If someone is dependant by being attached to a person in freefall then a S/L jumper is dependant because he is attached to the plane."

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And the AFF student is dependant on the attachment to the AFF I, or their ability to re-attach themselves when things get sticky.

We're all dependant. This is a gear gependant sport, we're dependant on weather, aircraft pilots etc. Learning to skydive is cool. I did it SL on round mil surplus gear and I sucked! I got better though.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[kai2k1 0]

OK, heres input from a soon to be AFF student. I have made 2 tandem jumps and im going for a third on sunday. Its part of my program.

Tandem 1: just a fun introduction to skydiving, learned about the aircraft, exit, and where the ripcord was.

Tandem 2: Little more serious, Learned about altitude awareness, COA, perfect exit, and hand signals. (also learned how not to land, OUCH)

Tandem 3: let you all know next week

In my opinion this is the right program for ppl who are not quite sure if they want to get into the sport. ON my first jump, it was sensory overload, and i really didnt get a chance to enjoy the jump, on the 2nd i was alot more relaxed, and more inclined to learn because i had made my mind up that it was something that i wanted to do. Now i work 6 days a week, save change, and do everything that i can do to make sure that i can get up every other week. Thanks for all the info in the forums. I hope to be a member of this "community" for many years to come...

KAI

There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan

[crutch 0]

Since I don't read theses things but maybe once or twice a week, I am not sure where to jump in, but here goes....

Tandems are great for the first jump!

Now that being said there are plenty of exceptions going both ways. First, I will grant you there are exceptional people out there who can go through the first jump course and finish the program (S/L or AFF) in the minimum number of jumps whoever their JM's are. But for 99% of the people who come out to make a first jump, a full day of class and then a AFF jump (I will keep my comments to AFF and not S/L) is more than one can handle. From a DZO's (small drop zone, not all of us jump at the likes of Chicago) point of view, tying up an instructor or two all day for one or two people who may never jump again this makes no sense. Having that instructor freed up to do 4 or more tandems is a much better way of running a business. So if I own a drop zone, everyone does a Tandem first to see if they enjoy skydiving at all. After that, the new student and instructors can evaluate what is the next course of action (another tandem or the AFF course). I have also found that doing one tandem makes much better students. The success rate of AFF students who did at least one tandem is infinitely higher than those who did none.

Now that being said which is better, well you have both left out the most deciding factor in all of this and that is the instructor. We have all seen and know of instructors that don't belong in the sport, every drop zone has them. So, if someone is doing these "extra" tandems with a so-so instructor, did they learn as much as doing AFF right away with a very good instructor? I think that a lot of drop zones have this problem also thrown into the mix of questions that you are asking. Some like Roger have gone one way and been successful, other have gone in other directions and been very successful also. I also tell potential students when asked whether S/L or AFF is better (I know a different discussion, but this is an example) that it is what works for you. I always say "each has it's own merits and weaknesses, you need to evaluate how you learn best and pick the course that you think you would feel most comfortable in."

One more thing before I go, Ron is absolutely right in saying that we have way too many people in the sport who have no business jumping out of airplanes. We deal with them all the time. Scared to death of a hop-n-pop, scared to pull below 3500', wouldn't ever jump without an altimeter, etc. Some of the programs are at fault, but I think in our greed to make money by expanding the sport to people who should never do more than a tandem skydive every once in a while is the main culprit.

Okay, I got my two cents in, thanks, blue skies!

blue skies,

art

[jumperconway 0]

OK my $.02,
I went to the DZ the first time because a videographer talked me into it. I parked away from the main area so that I could watch first without being seen by my friend. I saw 1 load come down and land and signed up for a "fun tandem". After that it was AFF course the next weekend. Still scared shitless of heights, I did my level 1 the next day(some caught a tree in the landing area and pounded in hard the day before-life flighted). Struggled thru 4 jumps in 3 months and gave up. Came back about 2 yrs. later at another DZ, did the refresher course. I got in the plane just to check it out(different plane) since we were weathered in. Just about got nausiated and started shaking all over again. Told them i would come back the next day and try again after sleeping on it. Awsome, 4 jumps later, I'm off of AFF! Shortly after that I switched to a big dz that was following Rogers method doing 3 tandems(all training jumps with hands on practice). Their students were so far ahead in skill than I was after 15 or 16 jumps, it was amazing. I truly believe that most people would be much better off doing AFP with 2 tandems then 1 jm until they get their "A" license with all the AFP jumps on video come out of the program much more airworthy and capable skydivers than the AFF program.

[Ron 7]

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Came back about 2 yrs. later

Ya think the TWO years might have had a factor here?

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I truly believe that most
people would be much better off doing AFP with 2 tandems then 1 jm until they get their "A" license with all
the AFP jumps on video come out of the program much more airworthy and capable skydivers than the AFF
program.

How about if they had video on all the AFF jumps, and coaching jumps?

You are telling me that ONE more tandem made that big of a difference...That I don't buy.

The quality of the instructors (and Roger has good instructors)...Has TONS to do with it.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumperconway 0]

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Came back about 2 yrs. later

Ya think the TWO years might have had a factor here?
Factor on what? I was a better student when I returned.

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I truly believe that most
people would be much better off doing AFP with 2 tandems then 1 jm until they get their "A" license with all
the AFP jumps on video come out of the program much more airworthy and capable skydivers than the AFF
program.

How about if they had video on all the AFF jumps, and coaching jumps?
Basicaly, I only had the required 8 levels and no other coached jumps and left to the wolves. No video on any AFF jumps.

You are telling me that ONE more tandem made that big of a difference...That I don't buy.

I just think that the second tandem really gives them the opportunity to take in and learn without the adrenaline overload and be able to relax before throwing themselves into solos full tilt.

The quality of the instructors (and Roger has good instructors)...Has TONS to do with it.

Spaceland also has high quality instructors, and yes I think that DOES make one hell of a difference. I felt like a number when I went through the first 4 aff jumps. I also felt that they failed me once,my 4th jump when they should have passed me (a lot of the reason that I gave up).

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