USPA GM Program

[Hooknswoop 19]

How USPA can fix the Group Member Program.

Change GM membership requirements from a pledge to follow the BSR's and a check to USPA to include a mandatory drop zone inspection. There was a voluntary DZ Inspection program, but only 1 DZ was inspected, and it failed. Successfully passing the initial DZ inspection would be a requirement to GM status. The DZ would also be subject to random DZ inspections. Failure of a random DZ inspection would result in their GM status being revoked, without any refund, until they pass an inspection.

Who pays for these inspections? Drop zones. Why would they pay? The same reason they pay now, marketing. If a first time jumper calls up DZ "A" and DZ "B", and DZ "A" tell the prospective jumper that DZ "B" is not a USPA member and therefore doesn't have to follow the Basic Safety Regulations that 'we' do, where is that jumper going to go? Even if DZ "B" is safer that DZ "A", the new jumper has no way of knowing that and assumes that being a member of the 'parent' organization makes it the safer choice. This happens all the time. In reality, being a GM DZ does not ensure that it is a safer DZ than a non-GM DZ DZ. The non-GM DZ may actually follow the BSR's closer than the GM DZ.

The inspectors would have to be unbiased and not from the region that they inspect DZ's in. Their travel and fees would be paid by USPA from the GM funds.

Written complaints of BSR violations, that were non-anonymous, would have to be investigated by DZ inspectors, being paid out of the GM fund.

Unfortunately this will never happen. Why would DZ's pay for an inspection program to make the GM status actually mean something when it already has the appearance that it means something? If USPA did make DZ inspections mandatory, DZ's would simply drop their GM membership, stop requiring USPA membership of it's jumpers and form their own organization. This new organization could be nothing more than a web page that prospective jumpers could visit to find a DZ and check and see if it is a member of the parent organization. From the first jumper perspective, everything would look the same as it does now and USPA would cease to exist. USPA isn't going to cut their own throats, so no mandatory DZ inspections required for GM membership.

USPA is a paper tiger with no teeth.

Derek

[jlmiracle 7]

I agree with you on this, but first thing that has to happen is the GM has to pay for itself. The GM programs fees don't cover the costs of the dz listings in Parachutist, the paperwork, or any marketing materials that the USPA sends to the GM dzs.

I am a firm believer that if the USPA needs to have mandatory dz inspections before they can be a GM dz.

You know and I know, this will never happen, especially since the BOD is made up of so many DZO's.

Hooknswoop - hope you can make it happen.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I agree with you on this, but first thing that has to happen is the GM has to pay for itself. The GM programs fees don't cover the costs of the dz listings in Parachutist, the paperwork, or any marketing materials that the USPA sends to the GM dzs.

I completely agree, the budgets should be seperate, with one not paying for the other. That would raise the cost of being a GM DZ, which won't be tolerated by DZ's.

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You know and I know, this will never happen, especially since the BOD is made up of so many DZO's.

Exactly, DZO's run USPA.

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Hooknswoop - hope you can make it happen.

Nothing I can do, execpt whine a bit here, and that isn't ging to change anything.

Derek

[Ron 7]

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All that Derek wrote

I agree with it all.

The USPA is ALMOST worthless. They have some benefit in that they lobby for airspace. Other than that they are worthless. Still I don't mind paying a few bucks to have a lobbist.

But most of the USPA programs are old and outdated...The new ones are poorly thought out, and not enforced. Hell they spent all this time on the ISP only to back down as soon as people said they didn't want to do it. And the coach rating. The BIC was a giant waste..and now its gone.

If you have Rules and regulations, but don't have any power to enforce them...What good are they?

USPA should stick to lobbying in DC, and for gods sake don't build a museum,,,Everything else they have touched has been bad. What makes them think that they can run a museum? And worse a museum about something that most people could not care one bit about.

They could take the money they plan on wasting on it, and spend it on a Demo team, or a traveling display at airshows state fairs ect...Or hell both.

What kind of a group suports a group member that will not let regular jumpers jump at his DZ? (I think hes out now, but it was several years that SLV was a member DZ that would not let USPA members jump there.)

If it was not for the lobbist being needed, and the fact that there are DZ's that I have to be a member to jump at....I would never send the USPA another check.

USPA is a giant waste.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Luv2Fall 0]

Are you saying the ISP is or will not be mandatory?

[Ron 7]

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Are you saying the ISP is or will not be mandatory?

It is NOT manditory

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Luv2Fall 0]

Holy shit.................thanks for the info.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]The GM programs fees don't cover the costs of the dz listings in Parachutist[/QUOTE]

Why can't membership fees help pay for this? When I was first starting to look for a DZ I really appreciated finding these random lists of USPA related DZs in parachutist, online, etc. As a member now I would be happy if a couple bucks of my membership fee went toward helping advertise USPA rated DZs. Why shouldnt my dollars help a beginner find a safe, rated DZ?

As I used to say to my brothers when we were younger, "I agree with everything except the way you smell".

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[jlmiracle 7]

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[QUOTE]The GM programs fees don't cover the costs of the dz listings in Parachutist[/QUOTE]

Why can't membership fees help pay for this? When I was first starting to look for a DZ I really appreciated finding these random lists of USPA related DZs in parachutist, online, etc. As a member now I would be happy if a couple bucks of my membership fee went toward helping advertise USPA rated DZs. Why shouldnt my dollars help a beginner find a safe, rated DZ?

As I used to say to my brothers when we were younger, "I agree with everything except the way you smell".

Membership dues do pay for this. Why do you think your fees keep going up and up and up and the GM's stay the same or are cut a deal to join or keep their membership.

Not all GM DZ are safe and follow BSR's, and the "rules" of the USPA, but get the members to pay their way. That's not fair. If ALL the GM DZ's had mandatory inspections, then we could tell if they are safe or not. Just because they are a USPA GM dz, does not mean they are safe. In fact some are really scary.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Why shouldnt my dollars help a beginner find a safe, rated DZ?

Because you dollars aren't necessarily going to help a beginner find a safe, rated DZ, they could be going towards helping a beginner find an unsafe, USPA GM DZ that uses non-rated Instructors. A GM that doesn't follow the BSR's gets the same representation from USPA as a GM DZ that does follow the BSR's.

If you want to donate to the GM program, you can. I don't think jumpers should pay for a DZ's marketing with their membership dues, especially if GM DZ's aren't held to a standard.

Derek

[Ron 7]

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I would be happy if a couple bucks of my membership fee went toward helping advertise USPA rated
DZs. Why shouldnt my dollars help a beginner find a safe, rated DZ?

what the hell is a "Rated" DZ?

The only thing you have to do to be a group member and have a cool listing it to send a check and pledge to follow the BSR's.

And there is no check to see if you do follow them...but they do check to make sure that your payment gets processed.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jdhill 0]

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USPA should stick to lobbying in DC, and for gods sake don't build a museum,,,Everything else they have touched has been bad. What makes them think that they can run a museum? And worse a museum about something that most people could not care one bit about.

They could take the money they plan on wasting on it, and spend it on a Demo team, or a traveling display at airshows state fairs ect...Or hell both.

I like that idea... they should get the Smithsonian to do an exhibit at the Air and Space Museum rather than building their own.

Josh

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Ron 7]

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I like that idea... they should get the Smithsonian to do an exhibit at the Air and Space Museum rather than
building their own.

Another damn fine idea.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]what the hell is a "Rated" DZ?[/QUOTE]

Well, ron, if you had monthly, quarterly, random whatever inspections I guess DZs would be rated. Maybe it would be a pass/fail, but it would still be a rating. I was working off of Derek's initial proposal of random inspections, which I think is a very very good one.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Ron 7]

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I was working off of Derek's initial proposal of random
inspections, which I think is a very very good one.

Oh I thought you were working in the present.

Sorry.

I think that the idea is very good...Therefore it has no chance of happening.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nitrodan 0]

A lot of small dzs are barely able to operate as it is. I agree that inspections are a great Idea but puting the cost on the dz would just be another nail in the coffin of alot of small dzs. Not having a dz for a couple hundred miles wouldn't do anyone any good.

DAN SMITH
www.skydivewichita.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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A lot of small dzs are barely able to operate as it is.

The costs would be passed onto consumers, the way GM dues are now, just like any other business. If the DZ went out of business because they could not pass the inspections or had to pay for multiple inspections in order to pass, then the community is better offf anyway.

The current system, with no inspections or enforcement allows DZ's to do as they wish. It is the ignorant students that pay the price. They don't know what to look for in a DZ and are taken by the "We are an USPA GM DZ" line.

Derek

[nitrodan 0]

Higher prices would keep more people out of the sport. we've raised our prices over the last year for tandem and student jumps and alot of people didn't mind but you still lose some of the money minded customers who already thought it was expensive, even though our prices are much lower than prices at dzs in other areas.

DAN SMITH
www.skydivewichita.com

[quade 3]

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A lot of small dzs are barely able to operate as it is. I agree that inspections are a great Idea but puting the cost on the dz would just be another nail in the coffin of alot of small dzs. Not having a dz for a couple hundred miles wouldn't do anyone any good.
DAN SMITH
SKYDIVEWICHITA.COM

The solution is simple then, follow the rules and run a dz that is beyond reproach.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Hooknswoop 19]

And lowering the safety standards will make it cheaper, allowing more people to jump. Not doing the maintenance on the aircraft, re-packing the reserves, replacing line sets on student canopies, replacing student gear, using old AAD's and not doing the maintenance on them will all keep costs down and allow more people to jump. Is that a viable solution? I don't think it is.

This wouldn't be an issue if GM DZ's followed the BSR's they 'pledged' to follow, did the maintenance required by the FAA and adhered to the FAR's. I have seen jump ticket prices as high as $21.00 for a 'normal' DZ. People pay it.

The nice thing about required inspections to be an USPA GM DZ, is that the competition cannot skimp on safety in order to charge lass than surrounding DZ's. It levels the playing field. Currently the DZ that spends he most on safety gets hurt the worst. They have to pay for the extra overhead it costs to follow the rules and there fore have to charge more to have the same margins as the competition. The competition can charge less and make the same amount of profit and the uneducated student can't tell the difference between the two DZ's, except that one is cheaper.

Seems to me a DZ that endures the added costs that come with following the FAR's and BSR's would be in favor of inspections for GM membership. As it would cause any competition that doesn't follow the BSR's and/or FAR's to either not be eligible for GM membership, which will hurt them, or ante up for safety and have to charge more, again leveling the field. It would cost a DZ that would pass such an inspection little in inspection costs over current GM dues. Small price to pay to level the field and force the competition to pay up or lose their GM membership. Especially if a DZ was found to not be in compliance with the FAR's and was reported to the FAA and shut down.

If someone cannot afford to pay the costs associated with a safe DZ, then, I'm sorry, reducing safety and the related costs isn't a good solution.

Derek

[robskydiv 0]

"And for God's sakes, don't build a museum."

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Agreed. And I agree with the USPA Demo team idea. I say let's bring skydiving to the people. I've forwarded these sentiments to my Regional Director and he agrees.

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[nitrodan 0]

I never said I lowered safety standards to be able to charge less. I'm all for inspections and I run my dz to very high safety standards. If you've never had the opportunity to run or own a dz I don't expect you to realize the expence involved in doing so. I just don't think charging the dz more money is the answer when, as someone said before they have the money to build a museum... (where would this money be better spent)

DAN SMITH
www.skydivewichita.com

[D22369 0]

Each dz can set its own ISP or modify the uspa issued one any way they see fit....

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I never said I lowered safety standards to be able to charge less.

Didn't say you did and didn't mean to imply you did. I figured based on your comment,

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I agree that inspections are a great Idea

and

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we've raised our prices over the last year for tandem and student jumps

, that you do run a safe DZ.

I would definitely like to see DZ inspections not cause an increase in fees, for either members or Group Members. USPA could use the museum money for improving the GM program with inspections and do the skydiving community a world of good. It would be a much better use of the funds.

How many students go to a "less safe" GM DZ because it is cheaper? If a "safer" DZ didn't lose those students to the "less safe" DZ because that DZ either couldn't pass an inspection or had to raise it's prices in order to raise it's safety standards, how much more money would it make? Could it them afford a small increase in GM dues in order to pay for the inspection program?

If an inspection program could be funded without a dues increase, would you support it? How many other DZO's would support it? How many wouldn't?

What if the first inspection was done at no further expense to the DZ, but a DZ would have to pay for any re-inspections if they failed?

The real benefit would be reaped by the DZ's that could pass the inspection the first time. They could retain the GM membership and any of their competitors that failed wouldn't. Safe DZ's would be rewarded and unsafe DZ's penalized. Isn't this how it should be?

From USPA's web site : "No organization rates the relative safety of skydiving schools. USPA Group Member skydiving centers have pledged to follow USPA Basic Safety Requirements, including providing training by only USPA-rated instructors, and using USPA-required equipment."

How many USPA GM DZ have broken their pledge to follow the BSR's? How many have used non-rated instructors, against that pledge? How many fail to use USPA-required equipment? How many of these DZ's that have broken their pledge have been penalized for it? What, exactly, does the 'pledge' mean?

Students have nothing to ensure an USPA GM DZ is following the BSR's. Are we not letting these students down?

Let's can the museum, and level the playing field for DZ's, making sure that all USPA GM DZ"s are held to a standard of safety.

Derek

[JakGramley 2]

Interesting discussion. I was PM'd yesterday asking for some input. I am sure by now that everyone realizes that I am out of the DZ business, and any opinions that I state are purely my own.

I guess the one thing that I would ask is what the motivation would be for a DZ to participate in any changes in the GM program? By far, the majority of the new students come to a DZ by either word of mouth or from DZ advertising. The number of new students that come to a DZ by recommendation of the USPA DZ listing is very small. If an inspection program was instituted for GM DZ's, there would be a risk of not passing, and that could drive some jumpers away. Since the current GM program is really just a rubber stamp of what the larger DZ's want, it would be difficult to put any teeth into a program that would not be beneficial to the DZ's in the first place. Why do the DZ's participate now? Mostly because the USPA keeps the FAA off their backs. We are a self regulating industry. Better to have a friendly regulating organization (the USPA) than to have the FAA try to regulate our daily skydiving operations directly. Sure, we have certain requirements that the FAA mandates. Our aircraft and pilots have to be properly certified, along with our TSO'd gear. Our flight operations have to follow FAA guidelines. But it pretty much stops there. The USPA is a handy organization that keeps the FAA off the backs of the DZ's, allowing them to operate pretty much as they want. If the GM program changes, and DZ's fail inspections, it could force the FAA to look closer at skydiving in general, and that would be a bad thing for all concerned. Also, if the FAA were suddenly called upon to really get involved in skydiving accidents, we could expect some MAJOR changes to the way we skydive. Do you think that the FAA would allow 20+ fatalities and hundreds of serious accidents from low turns each year? Not a chance. And trust me, you would NOT like the way the FAA would try to solve THAT problem!

The plain fact is that there isn’t enough of a motivation for changes in the GM program. Trust me, if the larger DZ’s don’t want something to change, it won’t change. It isn’t because they are directly controlling the USPA, but they are a HUGE lobbying group. The bigger DZ’s have a very large and loyal following. If a large DZ puts out the idea that a new change to the GM program would affect their skydivers, their skydivers will write letters, sign petitions and call their USPA representatives until the change is squashed. I have seen it in action, and it is amazing to watch.

For there to be any significant changes to the GM program, the DZ’s, large and small, have to see a direct benefit to them, or they will resist it. If they resist it, it will not happen. Right now we have VERY successful DZ’s that are not members of the USPA, and they have no problem finding new students and experienced jumpers to fill their planes. Increase the GM’s dues, slap a bunch of inspection requirements on member DZ’s and they will simply say goodbye and drop their USPA membership. Think they would lose jumpers because of this? Probably not. Oh sure, some skydivers would make noises about leaving to go to a “safer” USPA DZ, but after a few $10 per jump boogies and a $150 all you can jump weekend, all is forgotten. Let’s face it, jumpers go to a DZ not because it is a USPA dropzone or the safest one around. They go there because their friends are there, because they like the way they are treated and because it is convenient. So, the USPA continues to try to please all of the jumpers and try to keep dropzones involved in their GM program. And in doing so they end up with programs with no real teeth in them. Do I like all of this? No, but it is reality. And I am not so sure that the way things are is all bad. Skydivers as a whole are generally independent thinkers and risk takers. We don’t WANT regulations that limit what we can and can’t do. DZ owners are the same way. So, we want regulations that help us, but don’t limit us. The USPA has provided us with regulations that allow us to pretty much do what we want, and to decide what is safe and what isn’t, provided we don’t go TOO far in ignoring safety issues. It provides us with enough of a regulating industry so that the government stays out of our lives. It provides a basic set of standards that is tight enough to protect those that don’t have enough experience to know what is and isn’t safe, and loose enough so that our independent spirit is not squashed once we DO have the knowledge and experience to make safety decisions for ourselves.

Jack Gramley