Mentoring system

[jsaxton 0]

We are discussing creating a mentoring corps/system at my dropzone. The idea is to:

1) Improve overall safety
2) Improve retention of new jumpers

Currently we have some rated coaches but they don't get used a lot because the DZ charges $85 for a coach jump (including gear rental).

We also have a pool of great flyers that don't have a rating (for whatever reason) that are willing to participate.

Here are some of the ideas that I have come up with.

1) Reduce cost of coach jumps to slot+PackJob
(Got the DZM's approval)

2) Graduating jumpers should be introduced to the coaching/mentoring system at graduation

3) Rated Coaches and AFF instructors can jump with unlicensed skydivers

4) Unrated coaches will get an exemption from S&TA while they persue their coach ratings so
that they may jump with unlicensed skydivers while they persue their ratings. Unless this can happen unrated coaches will restrict themselves to jumping with licensed jumpers.

5) Mentors should contribute 1 unpaid coach or low time orginized jump each day they are present

6) Jumpers should not freefly until they get a license and have freefly safe gear

All this is very preliminary, really just some stuff that we discussed (over many beers) last night. I'm looking for suggestions and experiances from people that are involved in a mentoring system (what worked/what didn't).

Thanks in advance.

[AggieDave 6]

You know, once a jumper has a license, I'll take him/her up and do as many 2-ways as they'd like, working on whatever skills they'd like to (although my RW skills aren't that great, thus I'm usually asked for FF stuff).

What are they charged?

Nothing, I pay my slot and take care of my packjob. Why? Because that's the way I was brought up in this sport.

If its a non-license jumper, then they've got to go through the on DZ school, since I have a coaches rating, I can go with them and work with them out of the SIM for their correct catagory. I can't remember what they pay for the jump + gear rental, but I'm trying to say its something like $70. I get something like $5 or $10 doing a "coached jump", but I could really care less if I get paid or not. Well, if I get paid for a jump, then I'm using a packer, since they should make some off that jump too.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hazarrd 1]

check this site out. they send out information to all their members about training events and what not. pretty cool i think. hope this helps.

http://www.skydivementors.com/

.-.

[rigging65 0]

It used to be, that when you had the experience, you just passed it along to others without the need for a formal "mentoring" system. That's what chatting-over-beers-after-sunset was for. After learning a bit on the ground, the newbie would lurk loads and eventually get invited on with their "mentors".

Since it seems that few people want to hang around and wait for the beer light anymore, and even fewer newbies will be bothered with lurking loads, maybe an installed system is what it's come down to.

My best advise is to start small...only a few people...and let it build from there. Maybe set up one or two days a month for that group to get together and work on specific skills...followed by dinner/beer/bullshit sessions to go over the days events.

Skills are often passed on as an after effect of forming friendships. Develop the personal side and the skills will follow.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[jsaxton 0]

This is what I am mostly concerned with. Making the new jumpers feel welcomw enough that they actually DO stick around for the beer light.

[Shark 0]

Quote

This is what I am mostly concerned with. Making the new jumpers feel welcomw enough that they actually DO stick around for the beer light.

I concur. We also have a free 2 Way skills camp which I recommend to newly licensed skydivers.

Check this post out. It may shed some light on the subject.

[FrogNog 1]

> Skills are often passed on as an after effect of forming friendships.

All this talk of beer lights and I misread that line as "Skills are often passed on as an after effect of foaming friendships."

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[ripcords 0]

The slot plus the coaches pack job is what our dz charges for coached jumps.

As far as having non-rated jumpers skydiving with "students", that may raise liability issues.

Jumping with students is a blast and the coach rating is the initial rating and should not be too difficult for your experienced jumpers. It is a great goal and doing coached jumps is a great way to get the experienced jumpers at the dz to know the new jumpers.

Best wishes setting up your program. The sport needs people like you who are willing to help those just getting into it.

[voodew1 0]

Our Dz uses a totally different method- we the coaches take a student up on a coaching jump to get them to do something for the first time so they will buy us beer --we pay for our slot and pack our own gear but we get to have lots of fun every night. The newer jumpers than hang out and drink some of the beer they bought us"" well not true we make them buy good beer and then they have to drink that Coors light crap""---We are one small disfunctional family

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[lummy 4]

Quote

This is what I am mostly concerned with. Making the new jumpers feel welcomw enough that they actually DO stick around for the beer light.

having beer on hand would help that problem immensely ;)


Rule#1... don't follow Jeff ;)

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[Brian425 0]

As someone who s almost off student status and in need of more jumps for my A, I think it's a great idea. At my DZ, it seems I have a few unofficial mentors. I am starting to learn packing and the deal is that once I get good enough, I will pack for the people for free for a while.
I have some offers to do some two ways when I am off student status. My coach has told me that i can only jump with certain people until my A. Then she said go jump with as many different people as possible and try to learn one new thing on each jump. (She's already introduced me to some good belly fliers to work with after my A)
It's comforting to see people willing to teach us new guys. I personally like the idea of learning from others. I think it helps the students get to know the regulars and I think in the end it makes the students feel more attached to the DZ. It also helps if a student is looking to buy a rig. I found my cypress, container and reserve all from people at my DZ. I have people looking out for a main for me and I've had 2 offers to use a main for free unitl I can find a main of my own. This would never have happened if I did not get to know some of the regulars.
I say set up the mentoring program. I think it's would be best to make it official for people with their A. Before that you may have liability issues for experienced (non rated) jumpers jumping with students. Students can still learn just spending time with the experienced people.
I am a big fan of mentorship. Hopefully I can I can pass what I learned when I get more experienced. For now, I just great all the new tandems with a smile and I try to help out the students on lower levels than me in any way I can.

B

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[Nullified 0]

Brian,

Just in case you weren't aware, The Ranch does have a mentoring program. It really just began this year so word hasn't gotten out to everyone yet (probably), but we do have one.

When you graduate, ask about it at Manifest.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[Chrisky 0]

You speak from my heart!
Got taught most of my skills by fellow jumpers at no charge.

Give what you get.

Don't have a coach rating myself (german system is a bit different), but i would be sure to check back with any instructors before i'd jump with an unlicensed jumper.
Doesn't apply to me though, because i'm more approached for freefly jumps, too.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[rigging65 0]

Quote

having beer on hand would help that problem immensely ;)

Feel free to bring some! We never turn beer away...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[rtroup 1]

Brian,
The Ranch is currently organizing a mentor program. It should go into full affect at the start of next season. Manifest is putting together pamphlets that explain the system and a list of all the mentors. I don't think the pamphlets will be available until the start of next season. If you graduate before then talk to Kay-Way about the program and she will introduce you to one of us.
I don't know who is teaching you how to pack but they shouldn't be expecting you to pack for free for them in return. At the most you should maybe just pay a small fee for packing lessons that last more than ten minutes. Find me I will teach you how to pack for free. -Grouper

(insert philosophical quote here)

[lug 4]

I like what you have to far and what others have said there are some good points made on this thread. Although there are a few areas, so I will toss in my two cents.

Weather its called coaching or mentoring it means the same, so there shouldn’t be confusion in that I am talking about the same program.

Quote

1) Reduce cost of coach jumps to slot+PackJob
(Got the DZM's approval)

I couldn’t agree more with the cost you suggest for coaching. Although you forgot gear rental and the coaches services. The minimum should be at least both slots, gear rental, pack job for the rental unless the student is packing for them selves. Right now, I feel the coach should be paid for their service. Remember instructors are getting paid for teaching students how to skydive and the USPA Coach is doing the same but the coaches rating are now the introductory level for instructing, gone is the Jumpmaster rating. If the coach gives the money back to the student that is vary cool, and yes that is what it was like before the ISP.

As you can tell there is a side of me that feel coaches should be paid. My argument is that the coaches have to pay a coach’s course fee similar to an instructor course fee, hopefully not as much, in order to get the rating. The candidate has taken their own money, paid an evaluator for the course to be evaluated. During the course, just like an instructors course, they are evaluated on weather or not the candidate can effectively instruct and accurately evaluate a student’s in air skills.

How much coaches should be paid, its not up to me but all coaches or instructors making coaching jumps should be paid the same. At my DZ coach’s pay is the same as an AFF reserve side instructor, $15.

Ok, I might be an ass to those in control but I’ll say it, Drop Zones shouldn’t view the student in the coaching program as a added profit vehicle. DZ’s already have a profit built into the gear rental and jump slots. Think about it students have paid a lot just to get off student status, they don’t need to be gouged.

Quote

2) Graduating jumpers should be introduced to the coaching/mentoring system at graduation

This needs to be done during debriefing after the successful skydive clearing the student from student status if not earlier in their training.If it is not being done than someone is dropping the ball.

Quote

4) Unrated coaches will get an exemption from S&TA while they persue their coach ratings so that they may jump with unlicensed skydivers while they persue their ratings. Unless this can happen unrated coaches will restrict themselves to jumping with licensed jumpers.

This can be done but the S&TA needs to file a waver to the BSR first (Section 2-1: [E] 6) annually with the USPA. Care should be taken on who can jump with the coaching student. There are a lot of skydivers with good intentions but they just don’t have the skills to teach. Sorry for crushing some of your egos reading this thread but its true.

Memento Mori

[johnny1488 1]

You know how to pack? Dont you mean Zoli?

j/k

Seriously

Ask manifest who has placed them selves on the list and have them point us out to you so we can start corrupting you! j/k again

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[ifics 0]

I am a new jumper and I would love such a program!

[Fast 0]

Quote

You know, once a jumper has a license, I'll take him/her up and do as many 2-ways as they'd like, working on whatever skills they'd like to (although my RW skills aren't that great, thus I'm usually asked for FF stuff).

What are they charged?

Nothing, I pay my slot and take care of my packjob. Why? Because that's the way I was brought up in this sport.

If its a non-license jumper, then they've got to go through the on DZ school, since I have a coaches rating, I can go with them and work with them out of the SIM for their correct catagory. I can't remember what they pay for the jump + gear rental, but I'm trying to say its something like $70. I get something like $5 or $10 doing a "coached jump", but I could really care less if I get paid or not. Well, if I get paid for a jump, then I'm using a packer, since they should make some off that jump too.

I think one of the major concerns is that despite DZs having paid coach jumps available I would have to imagine that they are highly under used. I know that after all the money I shelled out going through AFF and getting my 5 required coach warp jumps done, I was sure glad to not have to pay coach rates again.

I don't think that a lot of students have the money to pay $80 or whatever it is for a coach jump after they are just done with AFF, or after they just get thier A. I know that I sure didn't. That makes coach programs inherently have flaws.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[jumpinjackflash 0]

I just read the info at the site, very cool actually and completely in line with whats being discussed here.

I sent a note requesting to join.


Looks nice, looking forward to more info.


Thanks


Jack

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[rigging65 0]

Quote

I think one of the major concerns is that despite DZs having paid coach jumps available I would have to imagine that they are highly under used. I know that after all the money I shelled out going through AFF and getting my 5 required coach warp jumps done, I was sure glad to not have to pay coach rates again.

I don't think that a lot of students have the money to pay $80 or whatever it is for a coach jump after they are just done with AFF, or after they just get thier A. I know that I sure didn't. That makes coach programs inherently have flaws.

I think what has to be remembered here is that the money you are spending on the jumps shouldn't just be money spent to get your A lic. If the DZ is doing its job, that extra money you're spending is actually saving you money in the long run by decreasing the number of jumps needed to gain a level of proficiency.

I wasn't a huge proponent of the Coach program when it first came around (specifically because of the front loaded costs), but what I watched was the overall skill level of our students shooting through the roof compared to what it used to be on the old AFF system...all other variables remained the same, the only change was adding coaches.

What we were seeing was people with 20 or 30 jumps flying with groups and showing skills that their contemporaries from only 2 or 3 years prior took 80 or 100 jumps to gain.

As I think is common on many DZs, students get off "student status" then make a glut of solos...then get around to getting involved with other jumpers, organizers, etc.... Something that I think actually slows their progression as they are regressing rather than moving forward while doing solos or 2 ways with a 100 jump wonder.

So, if you can cut the jump numbers needed to reach a given skill level by a factor of four, then even if the cost per jump is tripled it's still advantageous to the young jumper. Most coach systems (that I'm aware of) aren't making the DZ any real amount of money...besides filling slots. At our DZ, a coach jump costs enough to cover the two slots, the students rental gear and about $10 for the coach.

In reality, the coach system is just a measured mentoring system put in place, for a large part, because students weren't getting the mentoring they needed...and because mentors weren't necessarily at the DZ when the students were. Coaches, being a part of staff, are pretty much available whenever the DZ is open. Its a fast food world, and people want it all, and they want it now! The coach system caters to that want.

Of course this whole theory revolves around the DZ doing its job and providing coaches and dive flows that actually progress the student along a path. We actually have people earn their A lic and keep paying for coach jumps...because they know they're getting better as a result.

While it's a bit more expensive, IMO a good coach program dramatically increases the learned skill level of a young jumper over the older "thrown-to-the-sharks" method. This is an expensive sport, everyone knows that...and it's heavily front loaded to be sure...but the money is well spent if it gains you skill, confidence and safety!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[ZoneRat 0]

A couple things. Typically when a young jumper is first jumping with more experienced jumpers, the jump centers around tasks, not specific skills. Make the slot, don't go low, first we make this formation, then we do the meeker, then the bundy etc. Maybe there's a little creepr work first, a walk through of the dive, then, after the jump, a bit of advice and encouragement is given as everyone watches the video. Then it's onto the next jump.

This is different from a good coached jump.

A good coached jump usually centers on skill sets. HOW to dock. HOW to match target fall rate. HOW to decrese and increase fallrate. HOW to center point turn. A good coach will employ proven teaching methods using a variety of kinnesthetic and isometric ground work exercises to prepare the student for the jump, moving the student through a progression from a cognitive understanding of what's entailed to an autonomic understanding. Then there are ways to debrief that are better than others. Plus you help the student get a handle on relaxation techniques and other useful stuff as well.

A coached jump is just a different animal than a mentored jump. (Both have their uses I think).

Also, mentors can sometimes unknowingly provide false information. A rated coach can too, I suppose, but owing their additional training, I think it's less likely.

Do I support a mentor program? Hell yeah. Everything that can possibly aid a new jumper is a good thing. But will a mentored 2-way provide as much value to a student as a coached jump? Nope. No way. Not even close.

Just my .02

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[scotts 0]

Oh....he knows how to pack alright. Just look at his cutaway numbers.

[Brian425 0]

Grouper,
I'm learning from Dan, he was in an all red jumpsuit. I think I explained it wrong. The idea is that I will pack with and for him until I feel comfortable to do it by myself. I feel that he has my best interest at heart. It's not a case of I teach you and you owe me. More I'll be there with you to guiide you until you are comfortable packing.

I will definitely look into the mentoring program. I'll be up there Saturday and Sunday. I may stay over so I'll have time to hang out and have a few beers wsince I won't have the drive home.

Brian

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[Brian425 0]

I bought my cypress from Zoli. Corrupting me on the ground will be EASY. I've been know to have a beer or two.

If I stay up there this weekend, I will try to make rounds and introduce my self a little.

I must say I'm glad i picked the ranch. It's been a very good experience so far. Even when I bring the wind and rain.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.