Fast 0 #76 October 10, 2003 QuoteA hypothetical question: I jump a VX-60. I am also an AFF I/E. I think it is possible for me to convince a recently graduated student that my canopy is the canopy for them. "Hey, I'll coach you. You'll be fine, you are a natural." Then sell it to them. If (and when) they are seriously injured or killed under that canopy, should I shoulder any blame? They weren't a student anymore. They signed the waiver, they are an adult, right? Would the, hypothetical, accident have happened under a more suitable beginner canopy? What does flying a too high of performance canopy do to the odds of a new jumper being injured or killed? Finally, who's responsibility is it too keep a newer jumper from buying and flying a canopy that unacceptably increases their chances of being injured or killed under it? Derek In my not-so-expert opinion I think its the responsibility of more than just the jumper who is jumping the canopy. There has to be some degree of responsiblity put into the field of the others around the jumper. Someone underskilled jumping a canopy way to small or responsive for them is not only a danger to themselves, but also to all the people in the air around them, and the sport itself. If the experienced people let the newbies go out and kill themselves every weekend then there won't be many new jumpers around and the FAA/USPA/Media/General Population is going to take notice. The 30 a year average doesn't raise too many eyebrows but if it was 50? 100? More? I think people would start to think something is wrong. Bartenders have a responsibility in many areas to make a choice for a person (that they don't need more drinks) when that person is unable to make that choice for themselves. However much anyone says that you can explain to a new jumper (like me) what a Xaos/vengence/stilleto is like, or a whatever, all that you can do is that. I read that the HP canopys are more responsive etc. but I sure don't know what that equates to in reality. I jump a saber2, all I can tell you from what I read about stuff is its more responsive than that. Does that make me think there is a need for blacklisting. No I don't think so, there are to many intangibles in a system like that. I honestly can't think of a good way to deal with people who are making stupid sales. (One thing to consider is that if you knowingly and purpusfully were to put a person with limited experience up on like a VX-60 or some other pocket rocket canopy, waiver or not, it starts to brush into the realm of criminal negligence if the person kills themself, at least in my opinon, by my understanding.)~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #77 October 10, 2003 QuoteA hypothetical question: I jump a VX-60. I am also an AFF I/E. I think it is possible for me to convince a recently graduated student that my canopy is the canopy for them. "Hey, I'll coach you. You'll be fine, you are a natural." Then sell it to them. If (and when) they are seriously injured or killed under that canopy, should I shoulder any blame? They weren't a student anymore. They signed the waiver, they are an adult, right? Would the, hypothetical, accident have happened under a more suitable beginner canopy? What does flying a too high of performance canopy do to the odds of a new jumper being injured or killed? Finally, who's responsibility is it too keep a newer jumper from buying and flying a canopy that unacceptably increases their chances of being injured or killed under it? Derek the seller should, in theory, shoulder a hefty amount of personal guilt. However, no one forced the jumper in question to purchase the canopy, no one forced him or her to not seek second opinions from others who are more familiar with the skills of said jumper, and no one forced the jumper to strap the rig to his or her back and jump out of an airplane with it. Responsibility for your personal safety ultimately lies with you, and you alone, because you are the one who has to deal with the consequences of your actions. -N- **DISCLAIMER** I am speaking in GENERAL terms and not referring to any specific jumpers, real or imaginary. clear? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #78 October 10, 2003 QuoteThen sell it to them. Come on Derek, fess up. You're just trying to sell that little pocket rocket of yours. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #79 October 10, 2003 I thought the "Black List" idea was ridiculous... They must have really been short on material for this issue. I can see where this philosophy would take us if followed through... First go after those 'evil' gear sales people, then we round up all those demon automobile dealers that sell fast cars to people that drink... then we're off the gun shops... And to finish off the weekend what do you say we burn us some books!!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainbo 0 #80 October 10, 2003 Just when I thought this thread was going the right way... You will never, I repeat never, keep the idiots from killing themselves. You will realize that after watching them do its for too many years. And you will realize that they alone are responsible (for the most part). I obviously am not talking about them taking someone else out. Even when trained as suggested above they may still take themselves out. And who, if not the instructor corps, would not know who or at what point to suggest moving on to a more high performance canopy. Take a look at who some of these people taking themselves out are, not necessarily newbies. But they still do it. Training is the key, not blacklisting, period. Again, that is just my opinion... Rainbo i pay for my own actionsRainbo TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything "Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #81 October 10, 2003 QuoteHowever, no one forced the jumper in question to purchase the canopy, no one forced him or her to not seek second opinions from others who are more familiar with the skills of said jumper, and no one forced the jumper to strap the rig to his or her back and jump out of an airplane with it. Responsibility for your personal safety ultimately lies with you, and you alone, because you are the one who has to deal with the consequences of your actions Wanna buy a VX-60? Just kidding. An "A" license does not arm a jumper with enough knowledge to make good canopy choices, especially if someone they trust is giving them bad advise. I can buy a Lear jet (if I had the money), but I can't legally fly it until I have proven that I am capable and meet certain minimum requirements. Jumpers are buying and flying canopies before they are capable and injuries and fatalities are the result. Wing loading BSR, Blacklisting are two possible solutions to the problem. Allowing your friend to drive drunk because "He is an adult and can make his own choices." Is unacceptable. "I told him not to drive.", is a cop-out. Why can a bar be held accountable if someone gets drunk, drives and kills someone in an accident? USPA has a wind limit of 14 mph for students with a square reserve. I haven't seen anyone post that that is unfair to apply an arbitrary number to the max wind limit, as all students aren't the same. Why? Because it works and make sense, even if it is too high for some students and too low for others. It is a good guideline. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #82 October 10, 2003 QuoteAs far as I am aware they are only subject to FAA regulations at this point. Only in the case of reserve canopies. Mains are a free-for-all....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #83 October 10, 2003 QuoteTraining is the key Absolutely. So how do we assure that EVERY jumper out there has access to - or better yet HAS to receive - state of the art canopy control training? I've asked this question in these forums before. Everyone says training is the answer, but no one seems to be able to tell us how to go about making it happen for every jumper... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #84 October 10, 2003 QuoteTraining is the key Yes, it is, so what are you suggesting? The current system doesn't seem to be working. Training is the key, but the people that need it, don't seem to be getting it. Maybe it is better said, "Mandatory training is the key." Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #85 October 10, 2003 Formal training is good when it's available. But this is not always the case. I know what I'm about to say definitely applies to myself as well as every one else learning new canopy skills. I think what would help is if we encouraged people to spend more time playing up high with their canopies. There's a huge movement to become good with our freefall skills, and less emphasis on enhancing our canopy control skills. Instead of pulling a 3k (or whatever it is people normally pull at). Why not try and get people to pull a little higher and work on some canopy skills (flat turns, flared turns, front and rear risers, etc, etc, etc). Recently I've been working a lot on my flared turns up high and then a couple of weeks ago I was presented the option of doing a flared turn to avoid a crater while half way through my swoop or risk landing in the crater. Well my immediate thought process while in the middle of my swoop was "I don't want to go there" (where the crater was) and I instinctively executed a flared turn to avoid the obstacle. I may have been able to do this without the practice up high, but because of the practice, I didn't even have to think about how to avoid the crater, I just did it. So now I find myself wanting to become a better swooper and that means dialing in my 90s, 180s and 270s as well as sometime down the road I want to use my rear risers to help increase my swoop distance. How am I going to go about doing this? Easy ... I'm going to play up high with my 270s and at some point start adding in my front to rear riser transitions. And I won't try these down low until I know I'm performing the appropriate actions instinctively without thinking about what I need to do when I really need to be paying attention to Mother Earth and any additional air traffic. Of course actions speak louder than words and if I mess up this weekend (or any other weekend). I only have myself to blame. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rjf98 0 #86 October 10, 2003 I usually am the last person to ask for more regulation. I have in the past put my nod into not having a BSR for canopy size regulations. After following the post though, I find my position somewhat hypocritcal. How can we say you have an A license you need to pull by 3,500 and you have a D-license you pull by 2,000 and not license the type of canopy we fly? I think the question is really... how do we enforce this without increasing our costs dramatically? So we through a BSR out there. How many times has someone had a cypress fire and not been given a suspension by the DZ for pulling low? I used to think this argument about wingloading was nothing more than rehashing arguments that you can read about in the 1980ish issues of Parachutist. Now I'm not so sure. The question is this: Will USPA become a true governing body, or is it merely a way to through out suggestions? I think the majority of skydivers (in this country anyway) would prefer it throws out some suggestions and basically leaves them alone. Yes it means more death, and some bad pub for the sport. It also means we have more personal responsibility, something I think most of us truly believe in or we wouldn't be risking our lives by jumping out of planes every weekend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianthomas1966 0 #87 October 10, 2003 Dave, are you real tall? you don't look like you weigh 255 lbs. i'm guessing 255 + 30 for gear = 285 lbs. to make your wingload 1.67:1 on a 170 sq. ft. canopy. Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #88 October 10, 2003 QuoteYes it means more death, and some bad pub for the sport. I'm okay with bad publicity for the sport - it keeps the couch potatoes on their couches and out of our aircraft. I'm not okay with more death, but I can deal with that if I'm pretty sure the people dying knew WTF they were getting into with their canopy choice. How many mad mothers do you think it will take to get some legislator somewhere to propose - and then possibly get passed into law - regulation of "that dangerous sport, skydiving"? When I started jumping in 1990 it was extremely rare for anyone to die landing a perfectly good canopy. The training we got back then was adequate for the (slow, boring) canopies we were flying. It's not 1990 anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #89 October 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteTraining is the key Absolutely. Nope, it's all about the hotties. The young men crash-n-burn showing-off trying to get some pink. Now if the ladies would just ignore the x-brace guys and just give it away to the 1.0-WL crowd things would change, and everyone would be happy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,648 #90 October 10, 2003 QuoteA hypothetical question: I jump a VX-60. I am also an AFF I/E. I think it is possible for me to convince a recently graduated student that my canopy is the canopy for them. "Hey, I'll coach you. You'll be fine, you are a natural." Then sell it to them. If (and when) they are seriously injured or killed under that canopy, should I shoulder any blame? They weren't a student anymore. They signed the waiver, they are an adult, right? Would the, hypothetical, accident have happened under a more suitable beginner canopy? What does flying a too high of performance canopy do to the odds of a new jumper being injured or killed? Finally, who's responsibility is it too keep a newer jumper from buying and flying a canopy that unacceptably increases their chances of being injured or killed under it? Derek I think that would be a clear conflict of interest on your part. Unfortunately I cannot say it would be unethical, because I do not think a code of ethics for AFF/Is exists. Maybe it should, and right up at the top of the list of princlples should be that the instructor's first duty is to the well being of the student. I also don't think it unethical for a business to sell inappropriate gear to a beginner. It is immoral, IMO, but to be unethical it requires that some code of behavior has been established and agreed upon by the industry - and there isn't one. So, it's CAVEAT EMPTOR. Most professions that have an impact on the well-being of the public have a written code of ethics that the profession itself enforces (medicine, law, engineering...)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #91 October 10, 2003 You will never, I repeat never, keep the idiots from killing themselves. You will realize that after watching them do its for too many years. And you will realize that they alone are responsible (for the most part). obviously am not talking about them taking someone else out. ------------------------------------------------------------ I have been in this sport for close to 10 years now in one way or another (15 if you count my military experience). I have seen a lot of crazy shit and lost a lot of friends. I do understand that we all make our own decision. I just believe that not everyone (mainly newbies) is capable of making the right decision. If some guy with 10,000 jumps kills himself under a HP canopy, so be it. He knew what he was getting into. The newer jumpers don't appreciate what the "cool" guys went through to get to that level of experience that allows them to do what they do. TRAINING IS THE KEY! But, with the way things are now, why should they take the training? They can go buy the canopy they want without it. I am suggesting more training and once they have shown that they are proficent(sp) on a certain type and size then they can progress. We don't let students jump for the first time without intruction and instructors that go with them and help them survive. Why let them have any canopy they want? Why not make them get more training and increase their chances of surviving? I am not stupid enough to think that by having certain requirments for HP canopies that people will instantly stop killing themselves. I know that there is always going to be accidents and bad decisions made by every experience level. Hell this is a very dangerous sport. I am suggesting we try our best to take Darwin out of the picture and just let Murphy take over, so to speak. You and I aren't to different. We both want people to get the training they need, it just seems that you trust people to do the right thing more then I do. I do not believe with the way things are now that it will get any better. It is to easy for the Darwin candidate to get his hands on his death. Training is the key! The only way I can think to make sure they got the training is to prove it by having some sort of rating, that proves to me or any other dealer that this person is as able as we can be sure of to jump this canopy. No one is complianing about having to get a license to skydive. It makes sense. Why doesn't it make sense to get rated before you jump a certain canopy?Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedformula 0 #92 October 10, 2003 pink ?? hahaha amen !! Keeping it real 22x7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #93 October 10, 2003 The young men crash-n-burn showing-off trying to get some pink. Now if the ladies would just ignore the x-brace guys and just give it away to the 1.0-WL crowd things would change, and everyone would be happy! ------------------------------------------------------------ Sadly enough, you are right to a certain extent!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdgregory 0 #94 October 11, 2003 Well I do agree with Rainbo, but as I read some fo the arguments there are certain parts I also agree with. If the people giving the advice are looking out for your safety and they tell you that you shouldn't fly a certain agressive chute and you do, and die or get hurt, well, shame on you. Sometimes we can learn from more experienced people. That said, if you are an experienced person and you diliberately mislead us newbies and we get hurt, well we trusted you and you got us killed and shame on you. That said, commonsense tells you that this is a dangerous sport and well you should know that you do not have the skills to fly a "pocket rocket" and if you are that easily misled shame on you too. In that case both of you shoulder the blame, but if you go against sound judgement and common sense and sound experienced advice, well you're to blame. In either case the blame falls on the jumper. And ONLY in the case of deliberate or gross neglect is the seller responsible AS WELL (as in co-blame), but you better be able to prove there was gross neglect. However, as I do my next jumps this weekend I am going to use an aggressive chute and break my leg. Then I will sue the DZ, the manufacturer, the person whose chute I borrowed, the pilot for flying me up there, each of you for not stopping me, and MCDonald's for letting me burn my leg with their coffee bacuse we all know coffee should be served cold. And if it had not been hot and not spilled on my leg while I was riding my motorcycle to the DZ maybe I would not have hurt my leg skydiving. JUST KIDDING!!!! (for those who couldn't tell) ;) Sean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #95 October 11, 2003 Does anyone else find this kind of hypcritical? If this dzo/author was so concerned with these folks safety, why did he let them jump those canopies at his dz? For those who don't have the issue handy -- The letter writer is a dzo at a dz that sits at 4500 feet MSL. They've called in a life flight helicopter three times this year - not much for a big dz like Perris but too often for his "medium sized" dz. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the injured were jumping parachutes much too small for them. All were jumping parachutes I would never have sold them (and didn't). However they each felt way too cool to jump a parachute size that I would have encouraged them to buy. So they each went elsewhere to purchase their equipment. I've got another jumper who falls into this same category. He weighs 165 to 170 pounds and was sold a 150 square foot parachute when he had 28 jumps._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflash 0 #96 October 11, 2003 QuoteDoes anyone else find this kind of hypcritical? If this dzo/author was so concerned with these folks safety, why did he let them jump those canopies at his dz? For those who don't have the issue handy -- The letter writer is a dzo at a dz that sits at 4500 feet MSL. They've called in a life flight helicopter three times this year - not much for a big dz like Perris but too often for his "medium sized" dz. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the injured were jumping parachutes much too small for them. All were jumping parachutes I would never have sold them (and didn't). However they each felt way too cool to jump a parachute size that I would have encouraged them to buy. So they each went elsewhere to purchase their equipment. I've got another jumper who falls into this same category. He weighs 165 to 170 pounds and was sold a 150 square foot parachute when he had 28 jumps. That decides it, I must just be a complete wuss. I feel just like a little girlie man :-) I've got 17 and there is absolutely no way I want to go for that kind of wing loading. I weigh 195 and will keep jumping that 235 for quite some time I guess. Guess swooping is out of the question? Brought to you by DUH! jjf i was found, i was washed up and left for days...It's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #97 October 11, 2003 I have just read the letter in Parachutist regarding blacklisting. As a dealer, my knee-jerk reaction is to hate that idea. But I do agree that someone needs to guide lesser-experienced jumpers into responsible canopy choices. Clearly, relying on a third-party stranger (gear salesperson) to do so will not always work. I would argue that more responsibility should lie with those on the DZ who KNOW that a jumper is jumping a canopy outside their envelope of skills, and is likely to cause injury. If we are to self-police (and we repeatedly ask for that right), then let's DO it! On several occasions this year at my DZ, jumpers have been grounded from jumping a particular canopy size until they have shown they have the skills to pull it off. We'd rather piss a couple jumpers off than bite our nails waiting for another ambulance to pull up. And they do get angry -- one actually left our DZ to jump elsewhere, and has not returned. Earlier in this thread, my DZ was referred to as "progressive," in that advanced canopy skills are taugh as a part of the student progression. Maybe we are, and maybe it's time for other DZs to catch up, instead of asking complete strangers in other states to act as their S&TA's. My point is this -- if there is someone on the short road to injury (or worse), do you want to cry about how someone sold them an innappropriate canopy, or do you want to stop them from jumping it? If you're a fun jumper, point it out to the DZO, the instructors, the S&TA, the manifestors. Refuse to jump with that person unless they jump something reasonable. Take action. If you're a DZO, don't sell that person a jump ticket or let them on the plane in that rig. Can you really accuse a gear-seller of not doing enough to prevent injury if you sell a jump ticket to a person who is a known hazard? The responsibility lies with all of us, to keep each other safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bendywendy 0 #98 October 11, 2003 Quote Take action. If you're a DZO, don't sell that person a jump ticket or let them on the plane in that rig. Can you really accuse a gear-seller of not doing enough to prevent injury if you sell a jump ticket to a person who is a known hazard? The responsibility lies with all of us, to keep each other safe. The key wording there would be a known hazard. If you know the person is endangering themselves you need to let the people who can keep them from getting on the plane know about it. As I said earlier in this thread - I've put someone on a plane that was airlifted out after they were told they couldn't jump it at their dz - unfortunately, no one let us know that. Lots of people were quick to point the fact out afterwards. Courtesy call the other dz's in your area. I've done it when we've turned away people jumping unsafe gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #99 October 11, 2003 This is a dangerous subject.I got blasted at my job(building parachutes)for telling a person that an elliptical probably was not the all purpose canopy he was looking for.As a rule,I don,t sell(convince)anybody they should own this parachute over that parachute.I,m partial to the specific kind that I own and have test jumped.That does mean I don't want somebody to jump it who will most likely hurt themselves or others.Not sure it's anybody's fault?Think it's the culture we live and play in as skydivers.Any other thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #100 October 12, 2003 Read this. Then come back and tell me the same thing can't happen to skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
