Blacklisting

[skybytch 259]

Got the October issue of Parachutist handy? Grab it and turn to page 10. Read the letter titled "Benefits of Blacklisting" from Jack Guthrie.

As someone who sells gear - and makes an effort to do so ethically - I'm not sure if I like this idea or not. It might be a deterrent to those folks who'll sell anything to anyone just to make a buck, but it might also unfairly punish those ethical gear salespeople who asked all the right questions but were lied to by the person buying the canopy.

Even better than - or perhaps in addition to - listing the name of the person who sold the injured or dead jumper the canopy, how about listing the names of those who told the injured or dead person that they'd be "just fine" under that type or size canopy - i.e. the instructors, riggers and fun jumpers who are advising newbies about gear selection.

imho, a wingloading BSR would make such a "blacklist" unneccessary, but we all know that's not gonna happen...

Discuss.

[lazyfrog 0]

don't have the issue in hand, but I guess I understand the general meaning...
Why blacklist ??? people have to take their responsabilities. Unless the salesperson tells the client that this Spinetto 120 will be much better for him than the Silhouetto 190 he wanted to buy which would be a criminal attitude... The less experimented buyer MUST take several advices befor getting a canopy, and unless having the level to try and break swoop records etc...

stay safe, you usually just have 1 life

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Fumer tue, péter pue
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ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[Remster 24]

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The less experimented buyer MUST take several advices

But thats the issue....

Some jumpers will ask and ask and ask until they hear what they want to hear. And as soon as someone says that a 120 will be OK, he runs with it, and finds a dealer who doenst ask too many questions.

I'm not keen on blasklisting (or maybe redlisting would be a better descriptive). Heck, if I'm mr Skygod with 100 jump and no one wants to sell me that 120 loaded 1.7, I may want to use that list as a shopping guide....

Remster

[skybytch 259]

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Why blacklist ???

For those who don't have the issue handy -- The letter writer is a dzo at a dz that sits at 4500 feet MSL. They've called in a life flight helicopter three times this year - not much for a big dz like Perris but too often for his "medium sized" dz.

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All the injured were jumping parachutes much too small for them. All were jumping parachutes I would never have sold them (and didn't). However they each felt way too cool to jump a parachute size that I would have encouraged them to buy. So they each went elsewhere to purchase their equipment.

I've got another jumper who falls into this same category. He weighs 165 to 170 pounds and was sold a 150 square foot parachute when he had 28 jumps.

[Rainbo 0]

I read that article as well as the capital commentary that asked all of us to respond on the insurance issue. I did and the bottom line of that response applies here. As individuals we have to take responsibility for our own actions. Lower experience jumpers ask lots of questions, and get lots of answers, from lots of people. Sometimes they take the advice of the more conservative folks, usually instructors than understand the dynamics of inexperince better than others. Sometimes they listen to experienced jumpers whom they are somewhat in awe of???
In the end though they make their own decision and then they have to live with it. Sometimes things go wrong, sometimes they do not and a lot of fun is had. That is our life, you realize that after awhile. It is usually senseless to try and place blame on others shoulders unless it is an obvious case of blatant and gross misconduct.
Should novices work their way down the performance envelop, I personally think so. Will I be able to convince every person who makes a bad decision not to make that decision, gear related or otherwise, unfortunately no. If I could Iwould have a lot more healthy living friends after lots of years in the sport. Bottom line then is still the same, "do not give up" whether trying to convey good advice or saving your own life.
In the end this may sound cold but is simple business logic. If a vendor makes enough sales that hurt their reputation they will soon run out of customers. Kind of a law of the jungle thing, those of us who know about them will not use them, those that do not will not need them anymore after the incident.

BSBD,
Rainbo

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[lazyfrog 0]

so why not label the jumpers who ask too frequently for a smaller size with a "suicidal tendancies" label ???
maybe the BSR loading is a good thing... They are wanting to introduce such a thing in Empuria I know, and I have nothing against it... But even people who are highly experienced in number and frequency of jumps are not very safe with small or fast canopies, but it's so cool to have a spinetto 120...
once you have your driving license, you can get yourself a ferrari, no problem... but ferraris are not for everyone... same with the canopy...
Actually it seems most of us think/feel the same. Nobody likes to have to call the helicopter/ambulance coroner... specially for this kind of stuff which can easily be avoided

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Fumer tue, péter pue
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ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579

[skybytch 259]

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In the end though they make their own decision and then they have to live with it.

They aren't the only ones who have to live with it. Seeing someone hook in is a sickening experience.

DZO's also have to deal with the media - look at how SDC has been vilified by the media for a few accidents that they couldn't have done a whole lot to stop from happening.

We don't fly our canopies in a vacuum. What we choose to fly and how we fly it can and does affect other people.

[Rainbo 0]

Lisa, I do jump at SDC. And lots of other places over the years. I know all to well the issues that we have had to live with over the years and am familiar with all those incidents. I guess that perhaps I have become cynical over the years, for the better or worse. I know very well the trauma that occurrs to others when something bad happens. I have had to say far to many final farewells and make far to many hospital visits to console those with broken bodies.
I just point out what I have learned over time, especially when it comes to the make up of the personalities in our sport. I always tell people to start big (sic) and work down, but not everyone will take that advice. I point out that I have never broken a bone over many years and have had more than my share of stupid acts in that time.
To say that we are not a breed that takes well to regulation by others is a general understatement. To say that in the end we must be responsible for our actions, not others, is not.

Be Safe,
Rainbo

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[andy2 0]

I think as with anything use your best judgement. It can't hurt to let it be known that someone sold a stiletto 107 to a student with 45 jumps, or similar situation. Let the buying public use their common sense. If you're careful with your customers (as any dealer should be) then you've got nothing to worry about.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Remster 24]

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stiletto 107 to a student with 45 jumps,

Maybe not at 45 jumps, but at 100 or 200 jump I sure could have been able to BS my way talking to a dealer into a canopy that would not have been appropriate at that time. say a 120 loaded at 1.7

Its not taht hard to do now. You have sites like this one where a relative newbie can realy have lots of information, and know what things to say to BS a dealer who may be trying to make sure they dont sell a swoop monster to a newbie.

Then what? That guy femurs in and that dealer's name is listed in red ink? They'll claim they were told he had 800 jumps... will you beleive them?

Remster

[AggieDave 6]

When I called PD for a Stilletto 190 demo back over a year ago. They wouldn't give it to me until they talked to my S&TA. I had around 200 jumps at the time and my wingloading was about 1.35:1. My S&TA told them that he had to me to look at it, him knowing how I flew my canopy and that I was a conservative canopy pilot, etc. Reluctantly they sent me the 190. It was fine. Later, with his blessing, I borrowed a 170 from someone at the DZ loading at just under 1.7:1. It was great and fine. Finally, I had the money to buy a canopy, so I ended up buying a Heatwave 170. Once again, the dealer I bought it from wanted to talk to my S&TA or the head instructor or DZO, so I put them in contact with each other. After they talked, he sold me the canopy.

Over 500 jumps later, I still think about that process and although those canopies were fine for me, it made me proud of the people I was dealing with, that they wouldn't just send me a demo or sell me a canopy outright.

Well, except for one company I got a demo from. They asked my jump numbers (and I was honest with them), asked my exit weight (I was honest here as well) and they sent me a 170 (loading at just a hair under 1.7:1), without even a care.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dgskydive 0]

If you're careful with your customers (as any dealer should be) then you've got nothing to worry about.
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Not true. Even if the dealer asks ever question they can and does the best job of qualifying that customer they can. The customer can still lie to them and say all the right things. Think about it. If you where some 50 jump wonder and wanted a HP canopy. If you told the truth to a few dealers and they turned you down all you have to do is keep giving different answers to different dealers until you give the right answers and get what you want. That is the problem with the a Black List. If you called me and gave all the right answers I would sell you whatever you want because you sounded like you knew what you where talking about. I did my job and you lied. Know I am going to be put on a list and have everyone think that I don't care and stop buying from me!? That is wrong and unfair. A wingloading BSR may help this. I don't believe in to much regulation but at the same time I to am tired of seeing people kill themselves flying canopies that they are not ready for. Maybe a licsence to fly certain types of canopies is needed. I mean, if you are a pilot you don't get to go right out and fly an F-16 do you? No, you must work your way up to it and no one is going to let you fly it until you are ready. Maybe it is time for the same thing with canopies?

Dom

[jumpinjackflash 0]

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Quote

Why blacklist ???

For those who don't have the issue handy -- The letter writer is a dzo at a dz that sits at 4500 feet MSL. They've called in a life flight helicopter three times this year - not much for a big dz like Perris but too often for his "medium sized" dz.

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All the injured were jumping parachutes much too small for them. All were jumping parachutes I would never have sold them (and didn't). However they each felt way too cool to jump a parachute size that I would have encouraged them to buy. So they each went elsewhere to purchase their equipment.

I've got another jumper who falls into this same category. He weighs 165 to 170 pounds and was sold a 150 square foot parachute when he had 28 jumps.

Damn, I'm just too young to understand I suppose (ha, skydiving young!).

I enjoy watching the big boys swoop, and even thought the other day. "When I grow up, I may want to give that a shot"....

Now, understanding basic physics, how a hook turn acelerates a canopy, trajectory and setup.... I can wait a few years, minimum.

It's all kind of obvious isn't it? The conversation I had with one of our best jumpers went like this.

Me
You ever get injured?
JM
Oh Yeah, if your going to do this, mark my words, you'll get injured one way or another.

Me
Definitly cool, I'll give it a shot after I get a thousand or so jumps in. I gotta believe it's pretty scary, cuz you must know when you set it up, and hook it, come out of it, on the way in, you must know if it's botched, and have at least a couple seconds to watch yourself as you plow into the ground.

JM
Yes, definitly ugly.


Ok, so, doesn't everyone with basic sense understand that you really have to be good to do this? That you really have to be an advanced canopy pilot with incredible understanding of air currents and flight characteristics of your canopy?

Even then, as I'm told on this site frequently. Even when you get it right, there are no guarantees!


Angers me. Why would you have to waste breath on anyone explaining it?

All you have to do is watch someone swoop, and it's obvious that you have no business doing it, OR FLYING A HIGH PERFORMANCE CANOPY, unless you are highly experienced.


This stuff seems pretty simple to me. I love flying, so, to fly more, I have to live.


jjf

i was found, i was washed up and left for days...

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[jumpinjackflash 0]

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Maybe a licsence to fly certain types of canopies is needed. I mean, if you are a pilot you don't get to go right out and fly an F-16 do you? No, you must work your way up to it and no one is going to let you fly it until you are ready. Maybe it is time for the same thing with canopies?

As a newbie, I'd vote for the above. Why not have to be "Rated" to engage in what is incredibly "High Risk" diving behavior?

If the dz's abided, wouldn't that reduce the rate of fatalities?


just a thought,


Jack

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[dgskydive 0]

Angers me. Why would you have to waste breath on anyone explaining it?
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It angers most smart people. It's because there are idiots out there that think they are bullet proof and are goong to be the exception to the rule.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

Because none of us wants more regulation then we already have. It just seems that we may have to one day. I think it would help a lot, but would probably add to the cost of our sport in someway. I would vote for it none the less.

Dom

[Rainbo 0]

Sorry, but I do not think you guys have got it yet.

Look, how do you monitor all the used canopies that are out there?

Do drop zones that have hundreds of people on a particular day have canopy police that check everyones gear?

How about that buddy that gets his hands on something and lets you try it out?

Do we implement a common sense BSR?

I know I may be starting to sound repetitive now, but whose lap does the final decision lie in?!?

Rainbo

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[skybytch 259]

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If you're careful with your customers (as any dealer should be) then you've got nothing to worry about.

Actually there's quite a bit to worry about, even if a gear dealer is "careful." The company I used to work for was named in a lawsuit a few years back - they sold a rig to someone who sold it to another person who screwed up and was seriously injured.

Yes, you read that correctly - the company wasn't involved in the sale to the injured party in any way and still they were named as defendants in the suit. Know how much it costs just to get out of a lawsuit? There went any profit made on the original sale...

And then there's the moral angle. Even if I'm 99% sure that someone is experienced enough to handle whatever it is I sell them, they can still screw up and die. How do I feel when that happens? Like shit. Even if other people tell me it wasn't "my fault", I'm still going to question whether I made the right decision in selling that canopy to that person.

Selling gear ethically isn't as easy as some people seem to think it is.

[skybytch 259]

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I know I may be starting to sound repetitive now, but whose lap does the final decision lie in?!?

imho, until a novice skydiver has been around long enough to know exactly what they are getting themselves into by jumping a higher wingloading it's the responsibility of every instructor, rigger, dzo, gear salesperson, skygod, experienced jumper, "buddy", etc to keep those canopies out of the novice's hands.

When does a novice know exactly what they are getting themselves into? When they've witnessed a canopy accident, visited a friend in the hospital and/or attended a funeral. Until then it's like a teenager having unprotected sex - "that won't happen to me, I'm special."

[Rainbo 0]

Not arguing that point all. In fact I am quite supportive of that position, and practice it in good faith constantly. But I saying that enforcement is not the same as advice.
I know there have been times where "I" did things that technically were beyond my experience, especially in the early and mid 80's. I know also that it still continues today with newer jumpers. "We" always find a way to push the envelop at some time or another. I'll bet that if most in this forum searched their souls they would have to admit they have done the same, maybe not to a dangerous extent, but none the less gone beyond their "licensed" limits.
No. I will always push for everyone to perform in as safe as manner possible. Hopefully my advice in those instances will be followed, but, having said that...

Rainbo

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[dgskydive 0]

Do drop zones that have hundreds of people on a particular day have canopy police that check everyones gear
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No, but they could. Some sort of system could be set up I am sure. There are dz's out there that already won't let people jump over a certain wing loading. I don't agree with them that every jumper should be limited. But something can be set up.

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How about that buddy that gets his hands on something and lets you try it out?
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Get new buddies! If that happens it would be real easy to find out who gave them the canopy and hold them responsible for there friends injury or death. If you knew you could get sued for letting your friend jump something they are not legal to jump would you do it? What if you would be banned from that DZ for life or have your name put on a list that everyone gets and you are banned from all DZ's for a year or life! I wouldn't take that chance. Of course I wouldn't let a friend jump something they are not ready for. Or do my best to let them know why I think they shouldn't.

Dom

[sunshine 2]

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No, but they could. Some sort of system could be set up I am sure. There are dz's out there that already won't let people jump over a certain wing loading. I don't agree with them that every jumper should be limited. But something can be set up.

Unless you pack every single main and put the harness on the jumper, you have no way of knowing what they're jumping. They could easily swap out canopies that they've borrowed from a freind.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[dgskydive 0]

I'll bet that if most in this forum searched their souls they would have to admit they have done the same, maybe not to a dangerous extent, but none the less gone beyond their "licensed" limits.
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ABSOLUTELY! I have done many things I shouldn't have done when I first started jumping. SHooting tandem videos with 70 jumps, Doing a night Demo into a football stadium with 150 jumps, on only my second night jump, with a flag! If I knew then what I know now, it wouldn't happen again. Now they have the PRO RATING. That stuff shouldn't happen anymore. I was LUCKY I didn't hurt myself or anyone else! One day something is going to have to happen in regerds to canopies I just hope many more people don't have to die before it happens and that innocent moral dealers don't have their reputations hurt in the process.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

Your are right sunny. That's why I said get new buddies. With friends like that who needs enemies. But once again if you knew that you would get in legal trouble if you lent a friend a canopy that they where not legally allowed to jump would you do it?

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

OH OH, Brain storm! What if everything was color coded. Like when you go to a boogie, you get a colored band on your reserve handle and one that matches on your risers. If you have a green band on the reserve handle you can only get on the plane if the risers have a green band on them as well. Rate all canopies by color and make the loaders check before you get on the plane. You only get a new color for your reserve handle after passing a test on canopy skills of some sort.

Dom