AAD Required in Australia?

[stuntedflyer 0]

WOW!!!

Glad to hear passionate debate!
I find it kinda funny how someone with an A-Licence can have a Cypres fire whilst in a headdown position on a Freefly dive with another Skydiver of similar experience - then when debriefed by the DZSO, Mr. 50 jump skygod says "Oh well, I guess that's what a Cypres is for then".

Doesn't anyone else get the feeling that for a large proportion of newcomer/lowtimers in the sport that the ground just isnt scary enough anymore???

Does nobody see the trade-off in making a sport idiot-proof??? E.g. when you make something idiot proof you generally attract more idiots.

Guess I might have to make a fortune by designing a mini flight-computer which corrects monumental canopy fuckups by taking control - maybe it can also flare for you too. Hmm, that means when I buy a DZ and become Director of the APF, maybe I can legislate for the age limits to be dropped to say - 6 years old.... I mean come on, do you need to be able to pack your own rig anymore? Do you need to pull any handles to have a canopy above your head? Do you need a brain any longer to skydive?? Fuck it, lets make this as idiot proof as possible and more DZ owners can become even more filthily rich off of poor over-technologied and stupid skydivers.

I'm off to meditate.

[billvon 2,467]

>Guess I might have to make a fortune by designing a mini flight-
>computer which corrects monumental canopy fuckups by taking control . . .

I probably shouldn't tell you this, but the cypres was originally going to have 3 cutters - one for the reserve and two to cut away the main. That way if you have a baglock, you don't even need to cut away. Fortunately they did not incorporate that feature in the final model.

[wmw999 2,167]

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more DZ owners can become even more filthily rich

I realize it's off the topic of this post, but this sentence is pretty funny. There aren't a lot of DZ owners getting rich off of skydivers.

In the US, you own the DZ, you get to make the rules. You are a customer, you get to choose. It's pretty easy.

In Australia, the rules are simply set at the national level. You go to Australia, those are the rules. Kind of like a girl going to a conservative college and griping about the curfew. The curfew was already there. You weren't.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[stuntedflyer 0]

Bill,
I thought about that a couple of years ago (as I am sure many other people did) but I didnt realise they had planned on incorporating it into their original cypres.... Why didn't they??? Any ideas??

[Kris 0]

An AAD misfire is bad enough, but it'll usually just leave you with two out in most cases.

Now, imagine you had a unit that also cut away your main, how does a misfire below 300' sound to you now?

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[stuntedflyer 0]

Wendy,

I LIVE in Australia.... and as I can't justify leaving the country every time I want to go to the DZ (ya know... we're surrounded by huge oceans), I either need to be totally subservient and accepting.... or as I live in a democratic society which largely encourages free speech... I can choose to voice an opinion, maybe with the hope that others too may join in.

To link this to your query about rich DZ owners, and to the debate in question, try this one on for size...

In Australia (smaller population base than the US), two of the busiest DZ's are owned by two of the richest Australian Skydiver's. To my knowledge, most of their money was made from the sport (and is still their primary source of income/wealth). These two particular DZ's (i.e. their owners) are inherently involved in the decision making at national level behind what we in Australia call our Operational Regulations (I think you guys call them BSR's).

Would you not perhaps speak out if the people you paid your money to (i.e. YOU are THEIR customer) were able to heavily INFLUENCE that which you love most, in ways that you do not agree with??

Is this not the same situation as to why some countries do not allow or encourage media monopolies????

WE are the SKYDIVING POPULATION. WE need to SPEAK. WE need to be HEARD. I am not saying I totally disagree with some of the regulations over here regarding AAD's. I was looking at the over all picture whereby we are taking away the very things that make Skydiving an ADVENTURE sport. I advocate making it safer... but we have to understand that sometimes making something TOO accessible, makes it attractive and accessible for the WRONG type of people.

*Corey quietly puts soapbox away for the moment*

I sincerely appreciate any debate on this.

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[Squeak 17]

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more DZ owners can become even more filthily rich

I realize it's off the topic of this post, but this sentence is pretty funny. There aren't a lot of DZ owners getting rich off of skydivers.

In the US, you own the DZ, you get to make the rules. You are a customer, you get to choose. It's pretty easy.

In Australia, the rules are simply set at the national level. You go to Australia, those are the rules. Kind of like a girl going to a conservative college and griping about the curfew. The curfew was already there. You weren't.

Wendy W.

Hey you said what I said, but with less words



Cory the same applies to you you have choices the AAD requirement was in a fair while ago, and you have had plenty of warning as to the requiremenet for D license soon to be envoked.
Once it does come into effect, you then have the choice to skydive or not.
No one is making you buy an AAD, they're just making it so that ppl who jump in Oz use and AAD.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[mikkey 0]

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I LIVE in Australia.... and as I can't justify leaving the country every time I want to go to the DZ (ya know... we're surrounded by huge oceans), I either need to be totally subservient and accepting.... or as I live in a democratic society which largely encourages free speech... ...

Nothing wrong with free speech. There are lots of regulations in skydiving, not just in OZ but in many countries. Actually, I think (having lived and skydived in Europe prior to OZ) that there are much more restrictive regulations in many European countries compared to OZ.

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To link this to your query about rich DZ owners, and to the debate in question, try this one on for size...

In Australia (smaller population base than the US), two of the busiest DZ's are owned by two of the richest Australian Skydiver's. To my knowledge, most of their money was made from the sport (and is still their primary source of income/wealth). These two particular DZ's (i.e. their owners) are inherently involved in the decision making at national level behind what we in Australia call our Operational Regulations (I think you guys call them BSR's).

Would you not perhaps speak out if the people you paid your money to (i.e. YOU are THEIR customer) were able to heavily INFLUENCE that which you love most, in ways that you do not agree with??

Your are making some grand statements here mate and you are not underpinning them with facts.

1) You are making some serious claims about 2 DZ operators without naming them but enough for people to speculate who they are. That is not fair, so I challenge you to name them - especially as you are indirectly accusing them of corruption. I would be a little more careful if I was you.

2) You claim that we have "rich" DZ owners and that "most of their money was made from the sport ". Define rich. The economics of running a DZ in Australia is not that different (AFAIK) from the US. So the "rich" DZ owner thing is BS and people located in the US will agree. Only if you have a highly effective Tandem "factory" you probably make a decent buck out of skydiving - but I can not imagine that even somebody like that would be "rich" in most peoples terms.

3) You are inferring that those "rich" DZ owners (and I think I know one of them), being involved in the APF, are creating regulations like mandatory AAD use in order to profit from it as business owners. In other words, you are accusing them of corruption. How would they profit from the AAD regulations? It means they have to purchase AAD's for all their rigs - how are they profiting from that? It will help with insurance issues but that is a problem for everyone.

3) It is OK to disagree with certain regulations and if you are passionate about it you should use your democratic right as an APF member to advance your case in the right forums. You should however not make unsubstantiated claims about people.
I hope the people you are referring to (and it is far too easy to identify them from what you wrote) are not reading DZ.com, because they might just file defamation action. Be aware Australian law is quite strict in these matters.

4) BTW - most ossie skydivers I know are quite happy with the regulations we have down here (especially the "Cypres rule") and many would actually like to see something in regard to the WL issue. This does not mean you are not entitled to your opinions; just try to do it with out throwing mud at people please.

PS: I am a fun jumper and not in anyway involved in the operations of a DZ.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Squeak 17]

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***I LIVE in Australia.

Me too

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3) It is OK to disagree with certain regulations and if you are passionate about it you should use your democratic right as an APF member to advance your case in the right forums.

YUP well said

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4) BTW - most ossie skydivers I know are quite happy with the regulations we have down here (especially the "Cypres rule") and many would actually like to see something in regard to the WL issue.

I'm one of them also.
Also l fail to see how installing an AAD makes skydiving idiot proof.
Remember, the OP REGS require an AAD NOT a cypress, you can choose what AAD you want.
I chose a cypress, but you can also use an AAD on your main if you still use a rip cord. or any of the other Reserve AADs available

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Tonto 1]

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A $50.000 Mercedes is also bound to protect you better than that car/bike you're driving now.

Tell that to Princess Di...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[stuntedflyer 0]

Mikkey,

OK, fair call on the inferences (corruption) - however, that was not my point. My point was more about how the system has allowed certain regulations to contribute to a mindset that allows a certain amount of laziness with personal responsibility. As far as being defamatory... well, I think it would be a far cry to call what I wrote actionable in that context. However, to make it succinctly clear, I respect the two particular DZ owners I referred to, and value the contribution they make to skydiving at large. No, I will not name them here as (so you pointed out in a way) some people may infer different things from what I have written. It's my belief that you would be more than likely correct in assuming who those two DZ owners are.

To clarify, I do not think it's particularly deliberate on the part of the two DZ owners ("inherently involved in decision making"), nor is it any kind of conspiracy. It would be nicer to see more people on different levels being involved in the decision making process. So, partially I see it as the system at fault, and partially that more people don't put their hand up to become involved in the decision making. The APF do a fantastic and sometimes thankless job (IMO) at administering the sport here in Australia, and the two DZ's I was referring to (IMO) do an amazing job at getting skydivers in the air and providing them with the resources they need/want.

I CHOOSE to jump a Cypres, and would do so whether or not the regulation was in place. It's also understandable that unfortunately other factors have contributed to the implementation of the regulations in question (Insurance issues etc).

I can see how it looked like I was throwing mud at those two particular people, so, many apologies for that. However, as I said before, those two people devote a lot of their energies (unpaid) to returning value to the sport.

Sometimes things need to be stirred up. If, whether they agree with my sentiment or not, some people have revisited their thoughts in the context of the original debate in this thread then I am happy.

Blue Skies,
Corey.

[Squeak 17]

If you want fairer representation at the council level
have you considered chaning your affiliation?
If your pink card was with a major DZ initially they may still hold your proxy so check it and change it if you so desire.
I did and now my affiliation is with the Sporting Skydivers Club of WA, they have no intrest in Tandem or student operations

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[fergs 0]

Dude,

.... and today there's a $102 cypres on ebay.

fergbird

[mikkey 0]

Thanks for clarifying this – I really did not like the way this was heading.

As said, if you want to debate the regulations we have or not have in OZ or the structure of the APF etc. – hey lets bring it on - I think a few of the aussies here would join in.

On another note, I still just can not understand how you think that any DZ owner either here or in the US is / could get rich……

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Jasmin 0]

There is a biiiiiiiig difference between $1400 and $50,000 when you are a student or unemployed....(I was both when I started saving for my first rig...)

Seriously guys, do I have to remind you that they are nationally mandatory below d lic (soon to be e lic) here in Oz when excusing my post??!!

I mean, if you want to be that pedantic and stupid about it, how about we don't skydive or drive at all, wouldn't that be safer??!!!
We can take this to an all new level of stupidity if you like, such as what if a bird hits you and kills you in freefall, what if a meteor comes in and knocks you out?!! How silly do you want to be about this??!!

I listed these scenarios because both of those scenarioshave happened to people I know!!!!!
My gf was the girl who had the bloody cypress fire. The 2 knockouts were also both mates of mine and the footage is pretty scary.

(I do accept my snafu, tonto, and wish to insert the words "may save" for "will save")

They are nationally mandatory and I was just trying to say I will not tolerate anyone breaking the rules on this one, if the risk is of f*#king up my dz.

Furthermore, I don't accept penny pinching as an excuse for doing so, when there's gear for hire at my dz for those without an aad and an e lic.

I'm happy to buy a beer and jump with any dz.commer who heads over here, all I ask is that if you do decide to join us here in the sun, that you do the right thinig by us

And I'm not going to get dragged into another bloody aad debate....again!!

ps nothing is idiot proof:
"never underestimate the ingenuity of stupidity".
pps I got knocked out on opening once....it was the first, and the last, jump I did without a cypress...I hesitate to think what would happen if I'd been knocked out 2 seconds earlier...

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[Tonto 1]

Re the E-licence.

Is Australia the only country in the world with an E licence? I see no FAI E licence requirements.

If I have 4000 skydives, and have held a D licence for decades - am I required to wear an AAD because I don't have an E?

(This is accademic - since I wear one anyway, but I'd like to hear your answer.)

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[masher 1]

This is from our OpRegs:

3.6.2 In assessing a visitor's competence, a Chief Instructor shall certify in the visitor's log that the visitor has the competence equivalent to that required for a particular Parachutist Certificate. The Chief Instructor may also certify that the visitor has the competence and experience required for particular Crest awards.


So, the CI will check out your log book (watch you land, assess your competence in general) and say, "Yes, you're F/E/D/C/B/A licence equivelent." So for all intents and purposes, you "have" that licence as far as the APF is concerned. As long as you hold a valid parachutist's licence issued by an FAI-affiliated organisation.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[Jasmin 0]

Umm I'd like to correct you on that one...its not quite as simple as showing off to the Ci on your first day....

The jumper must meet the requirements of the lic unless show cause can be given.

eg You may arrive in australia with a foreign d lic and not be signed off to jump without an aad. If the d lic requirements in your country were 150 jumps, no other display of competency or currency req'd (eg star crest, spotting, landing ability...I'm being stupid on the jump no's to make my point here) your d probably won't be acknowledged as equivalent to our d for the waiving of restrictions.

The CI's tend to do a fine job of assessing ability with jump numbers and foreign lic's and qualifications to assess what a foreign jumpers' rating is equivalent to on our scale....signing off a higher lic than what you have, can be an altogether different thing though...


You also need to consider that dz's can impose their own rules (we have a few at our dz) and the ci's may also do the same to you....

At the end of the day, if you meet the req's for our e lic and show competency and currency, no worries.

But it seems like a big deal over something that seems like such a little thing:
its simple!
AAD's are mandatory

ps Our lic go up to F.....eg Dad is F#3

pps Star crest is an award here in australia and is actually needed for a b lic at my dz.

http://www.apf.asn.au/apf_admin/downloads/opregs2003.pdf
Is the apf site

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[Tonto 1]

So what are the e licence requirements?

I hold PASA

AFF I
TMV
SL JM
SL I
Pro Ratings.

I've been a USPA AFF I but since I havn't been in the US for 5 years let that rating lapse.

I have 1200 AFF dives, 700 Tandems, 600 CRW dives, 300 camera dives, and about 1000 FS dives. I've been to a World Meet (in Oz) and done a 40 way (in Oz) and some bigger stuff in the rest of the world. The rest of my dives are Student jumps and demo's, I guess.

If I need to jump to show my competance - then I need to wear an AAD on that dive - right? Catch 22...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[masher 1]

The OpRegs say that the visiting jumper will have their "experience and competence assessed" by the CI. It doesn't say _how_ the CI will assess it. Thats up to the CI.


.

Certificate "E" conditions: Applicants must:
(a) Fulfil the conditions of Certificate "D";
(b) Have made at least 500 stable free falls;
(c) Have made at least 20 descents landing within 1 metre of the target centre;

Certificate "F" conditions: Applicants must:
(a) Fulfil the conditions of Certificate "E";
(b) Have made at least 1000 stable free falls;
(c) Have made at least 20 descents landing within 0.5 metre of the target centre;
(d) Have completed 20 consecutively nominated descents landing within 5 metres of the target disc (see 3.1.9);
(e) Have made at least one descent at night.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[mikkey 0]

Tonto,

I don't think you would need to worry. It does depend on the CI at the DZ you go to. But if you hold well known licenses (USPA, PASA etc.), have lots of jumps, are current (and especially are an instructor), you would have any problems here in OZ.
I don't think my CI/DZO would ask you to make an evaluation jump .
Different story if you come with 100 jumps from an "unknown" country (license wise). documents in a different language, and you have not jumped for 3 month, thats a different story......

In regard to E and F license - check the APF web site. It's mostly number of jumps, accuracy, night jumps, etc. etc. With your record you should have no issues.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Tonto 1]

Thanks for the info.

Our D licence requires Night FS, several 8 ways and at least one 16 way.

I see they're big on Accuracy.

Our Pro requires 10 consecutive Nominated dives in a 5 m circle, including one from a low exit (2000ft) and one with a Flag - on the sized canopy you'll be doing the demo on. (So you can't use a 290 for the Pro rating and go jump your 107 into the stadium..)

Your 0.5 m requirements - are they nominated and consecutive and on the gear you use every day, or can I count the ones I got lucky on, or use an Acc canopy for those dives?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Tonto 1]

And I wear an AAD anyway... but I'm interested to see where the line lies... if you know what I mean.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[masher 1]

Check out requirements (c) and (d). One is for nominated jumps, the other is just for jumps.

AFAIK, you can use any canopy for your licence requirements. Accuracy for display licences, I have no idea about. I'm guessing you have to use the canopy you use for displays.


.

If you want to know all the ins and outs for licences and everything, check out the link that Jasmin supplied.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[stuntedflyer 0]

This is a reply to several of the last few who posted... i.e. Tonto, Masher, Jasmin, Mikkey - and of course the originator of the thread.

I just remembered there is a point in the OpRegs which states that the C.I. can allow a person to jump without an AAD at certain times, when it is otherwise mandatory for that person. I think it also states that the authorisation has to be written (maybe in the jumpers logbook).

At present, can't remember where in the Regs it is, but it IS there - can anyone help?. We'd also need to look at how the specific reg is used - in this case whether or not it may help out ReLLik if he is only going to be doing a couple of weekends jumping.

Failing that, if ReLLik gives me a Private Message to discuss.... I may be able to help him with a Cypres equipped rig as a loaner (saving money from a DZ Hire rig) when he gets here.

Tonto, with your question (I know a few people answered it already), I met you at Kooralbyn World CRW meet in 1994 - we had a pie and a beer together. A CI in Australia would look at your licence folder and your endorsements and probably not even bother to ask any other questions... i.e. you would more than likely be treated as if you had an F licence.

Blue Ones,
Corey.