cutaway charges for rented gear

[weegegirl 2]

Tough one. The DZ should have some sort of written policy for rental gear that should be followed. However, either way, that price is WAY too steep. If it were me, I would take some of that money, buy a lot of beer, and hire a skydiving search party. Go find the missing shit. That's a lot of money.

[USPA 0]

There is a big diference between renting and borrowing. In this first case someone is running a business and making profit, second case it's a favor.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[sbhesq 0]

My wife, who is an AFF instructor, and I (coach and videographer) were at the DZ this weekend when this incident took place. After witnessing the event and listening to the skydiver's stories (which she changed about six times) it was very apparent that the jumper did not have a bag lock as she now claims, but rather it was more likely that her pilot chute was caught in her burble. It was also clear that the jumper had no idea what happened. Of that I am certain because by her own admission she never looked up after she threw her pilot chute at 4,200 feet (without any mention of a hard pull). She then claimed she waited a "few seconds", saw power lines, got scared and had a opened reserve at 1,500 feet. Loosely translated ... @ 15 seconds later. This jumper cannot account for any of the @ 15 seconds and what type (if any) malfunction she had. Her lack of recollection of the events was truly frightening. This skydiver should consider the DZ's charging her for the gear she lost the least of her concerns. More importantly she should truly consider whether after her clear lack of awareness she should even continue skydiving.

We are happy that she did pull her reserve and land safely. However, expecting not to pay for the loss is truly absurd after the skydiver did not even volunteer to help look for the gear. We all assume risk when we make a skydive, especially when you have your own gear and choose to grab a rental rig because this skydiver could not even pack their own rig.

Maybe the better choice would have been to miss the sunset load and get a packing lesson.

[jumperconway 0]

We had a student have a cypres fire and trashed the reserve going through a tree. The dzo told him not to worry about the reserve but he can't jump there again. I checked with the dz and was told that if rental gear get's chopped and lost that the dz takes the hit (I assume only if staff packed it).

[mjosparky 3]

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the guy renting shouldn't have to pay for a malfunction that he didn't pack himself ....

he has paid to rent a rig.. not be nearly killed due to a packers neglegence ..

He paid for a rental rig which 1) he should have inspected, 2) he could have repacked, 3) he could have paid a packer to repack, 4) he could have had an experienced rigger inspect ....

Now, if he did hire a rigger to inspect AND get a packer to repack it AND it still malfunctioned, he STILL assumes all responsibility and has to replace the equipment.

If you don't like it, buy your own gear or don't jump.

YOU are soley responsible for YOUR skydive

He didn't have the reserve inspected or repacked, why should he do it to a main that he rented. If it was packed when he got it, Part 105.43(a) says it was packed by a rigger or under the direct supervision of a rigger. Any problem on deployment would be on the rentee.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AdD 1]

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I wouldn't pay it - any of it.

And ya know, that line of "You didn't pay for an opening, you paid for a pack job" is starting to wear on me.

Cypres sells openings, how come packers can't?

Unless responsibility for damage was stipulated in the rental agreement I wouldn't pay a dime.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[Trent 0]

I don't think he was told that he couldn't jump here again. I think he didn't really feel like jumping after coming so close. Also, he probably got the "skydiving isn't for everyone" speech from the instructors. No one was rude or confrontational, we were worried about him, made sure he was okay. He even came out to thank everyone a few days later.

But to the subject... I think rental gear is the responsibility of the renter. If you don't trust the packjob in there when you rent it, get it repacked before you jump it.

Oh, hello again!

[rehmwa 2]

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Unless responsibility for damage was stipulated in the rental agreement I wouldn't pay a dime.

Anybody here ever, ever see a written rental agreement to use a DZ rig for a jump?

I need a rig, can you rent me one for a jump? Sure, grab this one and I'll tell manifest to add the cost to your account - it's $25. Ok, thanks

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[MakeItHappen 15]

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The main was well-used, with several thousand jumps, and the reserve would have been soon due for a repack anyway.

Most rigs are always 'soon due' for a repack.

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Additionally, the DZ would certainly acquire the replacement items at wholesale, not retail, cost. And wouldn't most of this cost likely be covered by their business insurance?

Most DZS do not have insurance on their equipment. Those that do, are usually under-insured. I know of one DZ that has a policy for catastrophic losses with a high deductable. The DZO told me that the policy is for something big, like a fire that wipes out all of his equipment. Stuff like a lost canopy, helmet or altimeter, he would replace (for student jumps). Students do not get charged for lost mains (to my knowledge anyway). Students get charged a nominal fee from lost main ripcords (as long as the jumper did not have a malfunction) - at least when most dzs had RC mains on student equipment.

Once a jumper attains a license and starts renting gear, the arrangement changes. You lose or damage a canopy that you rent - you replace or fix it. If the jumper feels the quoted price is unfair, then they should go buy a replacement, acceptable to the DZO, directly. Replacement costs are generally greater than the value of the equipment lost or damaged. [Look at most home owners insurance policies. Homes are insured for replacement cost - not the purchase price.]

No packer anywhere, not even riggers packing reserves, guarentees that the canopy will open. There are packers that sometimes pay for a reserve repack when their main pack is cutaway - but that is not the norm.

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Have we reached a new low in customer service?

No.

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My wife, who is an AFF instructor, and I (coach and videographer) were at the DZ this weekend when this incident took place. After witnessing the event and listening to the skydiver's stories (which she changed about six times) it was very apparent that the jumper did not have a bag lock as she now claims, but rather it was more likely that her pilot chute was caught in her burble. It was also clear that the jumper had no idea what happened. Of that I am certain because by her own admission she never looked up after she threw her pilot chute at 4,200 feet (without any mention of a hard pull). She then claimed she waited a "few seconds", saw power lines, got scared and had a opened reserve at 1,500 feet. Loosely translated ... @ 15 seconds later. This jumper cannot account for any of the @ 15 seconds and what type (if any) malfunction she had. Her lack of recollection of the events was truly frightening.

This skydiver should consider the DZ's charging her for the gear she lost the least of her concerns. More importantly she should truly consider whether after her clear lack of awareness she should even continue skydiving.

I would call this jumper successful.
The jumper maintained altitude awareness: 'saw power lines'. That means the jumper was looking at the ground more than the main. That's a good thing. Too many people have lost altitude awareness by giving undivided attention to the main. This has lead to two-out situations when the CYPRES fired. Before the CYPRES, some of these people died. Other people have died landing a lame main, without any type of corrective inputs because they became engrossed with a problem and never looked at the ground.

The jumper was under the reserve by 1500 feet. That's what is supposed to happen when you have a malfunction. A jumper does NOT have to have 100% accurate recollection of whatever was wrong with the main.

I would call this jumper successful.

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A reserve is normal use of gear.

I wanted this to be re-read.

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With under 200 jumps the awareness to follow the shit after cutaway may not have even occurred to the jumper. (read-expensive mistake) They were on survival mode.

This is true too. What about others on the load? Didn't they watch where the main went?

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Anybody here ever, ever see a written rental agreement to use a DZ rig for a jump?

Yes - at Square1

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[BlindBrick 0]

Not comementing on the jumper or their actions, but if they do have to pay, the vast majority of states have laws that say you provide an amount equal to the current value or the lost/damaged items, not the replacement value.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[zahiv 0]

I pulled my researve on my 25th jump, I jumped a rented gear. when I landed the regear and DZO asked what hapend and that it. I did not have to pay for the repack. All the parts where found (it toke a few hours to find the main). but any way my DZ does not charge the renter if something get lost or damaged dou to a mal. on a regular jump if you lose the rip cord you do have to pay.
On the other DZ in Israel you sign that if you lose something or cypress fires you do have to pay.
So it all depends on the DZ.

...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return...
blue sky
Asaf

[flyangel2 2]

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Anybody here ever, ever see a written rental agreement to use a DZ rig for a jump?

Bill, the DZ that I was an office manager at had a rental agreement for rigs. Everyone had to sign it, even if it was an experienced jumper using the rig for just a hop n pop. It's been some time since I've seen the contract, but I believe it stayed that the person using the gear, had to pay for repair or replacement parts. One time a low timer landed near a wire fence and put all kinds of holes in the canopy. He didn't say a word about it when he came back to the hanger. It was the packer that noticed it, and then brought it to the attention of the DZO. Jumper paid to get it fixed.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[RDG 0]

What about the lost revenue if the rig does not have a canopy in it by the weekend.

$35 rental + $20 per jump ticket= $55 per jump. The rig would be jumped???15 times a weekend.. That’s $825 in revenue the DZ is out… Look for you shit next time, or pay quietly

[thelem 0]

When I rent a rig from my DZ, I expect it to be in fully working condition with a main packed by a qualified packer. I do not expect to have to get the reserve inspected by a rigger before I jump.

Therefore, if the rig does not work as expected I would expect the DZ to pay. Of course I would do my best to locate the equipment (not likely to be a problem at my dz though).

Renting a rig is a business transaction, but If I am borrowing a rig from a friend, then they are doing me a favour and it is my responsibility to return it to them how they gave it to me.

Obviously if there was an agreement, which make you pay for lost gear, that you had to sign before renting the rig, then that would be different. In that case if you didn't like the agreement, you shouldn't have rented the rig.

[SkyPsycho 0]

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What about the lost revenue if the rig does not have a canopy in it by the weekend.

$35 rental + $20 per jump ticket= $55 per jump. The rig would be jumped???15 times a weekend.. That’s $825 in revenue the DZ is out… Look for you shit next time, or pay quietly

i would love for you to show me somewhere where a rental rig makes $825 on a weekend. most places rent the rig daily for between $55 and $75 for the whole day, or over 3 jumps. less jumps = less rental price. lost revenue, yes, but not anywhere close to the tune you state.

_______________________________
HK MP5SD.........silence is golden

[nightjumps 1]

I was just goofin about that part and forgot the little smiley face

One thing I have noticed in this thread of just two pages, but it would appear that there were two "Student" rigs rented to experienced skydivers who had mals this weekend.

[sducoach 0]

It seems to me that students are different than experienced skydivers concerning the rental of equipment. A student expects a service provided to include required equipment for the training. An experienced skydiver is renting a convenience.

I had a DZO wanting to swap rigs on a jump. I don't swap rigs on the way to the aircraft. We jump, he has a bag lock. I land with the freebag, pick up the main, find the pud and walk in. Should I have charged a "recovery fee"?????

Sounds like a DZO has just found a new revenue line.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[Kat1221 0]

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I pulled my researve on my 25th jump, I jumped a rented gear. but any way my DZ does not charge the renter if something get lost or damaged dou to a mal. on a regular jump if you lose the rip cord you do have to pay.

I think thats entirely different - at my DZ we don't expect students to pay for anything if they have a mal, and I don't think many DZ's would. This is a case of a DZ renting a rig to a licenced jumper, so I'm assuming the rig wouldn't be used for student with 25 or under jumps - it was probably a smaller main used for more experienced jumpers as transition gear. And a licenced jumper should have the presence of mind to look for the main / freebag to see where it was heading.
Other people on the load should have helped out too - there was a thread on this a while back about following people who land out, and most agreed that one person follows the main, one the free bag and one the jumper is he/she is landing off... if its safe.
But I agree with the poster who said that two cutaways on 'student' rigs is a lot....

[EricTheRed 0]

The $$ may be disputed, not the responsibility to pay. You rent the rig. You either

a: Pack it yourself
b: Trust the last person that packed it

If it's packed when you rent it and you don't trust it, it's pretty damn easy to unpack-repack.

The only pack job that you get a money back guarantee on should be the reserve. If it doesn't open you shouldn't have to buy that bottle of whisky.

What is it with people that feel fine risking their life but can't deal with the concept of financial risk??

illegible usually

[Andrewwhyte 1]

A junior who is in a hurry should always look for unfamiliar gear, especially at sunset. What could go wrong?

[mrhoop 0]

I would not pay a cent. The DZO knows that there is a posibility his equipment could got lost or damaged. The price to me includes insurance, and no one made them rent that equipment. It is done so the DZ can make a buck, and keep alot of people current till they get their oun gear.

[Rdy2skydive 0]

Please note that this thread was started by a jumper who has well over 100 jumps and owns their own gear. This person doesn't know how to pack and wanted to make the sunset load which was on a less than ten minute call at the time, and decided to jump a rental rig instead.

Please note that this student rig did not experience two malfunctions and it's not even clear that this incident is a result of a malfunction. The jumper has changed her story a number of times and has a history of losing altitude awareness and pulling much lower than supposed to. Additionally, everyone on the load and the few remaining jumpers on the ground did assist as much as possible. Most of us were out looking for the missing jumper who was annoyed it took "so long" to finally find her. And, they were able to retrieve some of the gear so far based on the observations of the other jumpers in the sky. This jumper said she had no time to go out and look for any missing gear. As for the parachute, it's not that old and does not have thousands of jumps on it. The dropzone is frequently more than generous to it's jumpers and is currently looking to retrieve or replace the gear it lost as a result of someone else's carelessness. The jumper who started this post is not presenting all the facts in the most truthful manner.

[diablopilot 2]

This thread is a sign of one of the things wrong in todays version of the sport.

You rent the rig, jump it and break it, you buy it. Used a packer? Too bad you're still responsible.

You say the gear is used? So what. The replacement cost is still the same. If you lost your own gear, no manufacturer would say, "oh, that's too bad, but since it was old, we'll replace it at a lower cost."

Your friend knew what they were getting into. They need to suck it up and pay for what they are responsible for.


Would this even be a question if they had borrowed your gear?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[sbhesq 0]

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Not comementing on the jumper or their actions, but if they do have to pay, the vast majority of states have laws that say you provide an amount equal to the current value or the lost/damaged items, not the replacement value.

-Blind

What states? Show me the statutes.

[BlindBrick 0]

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Not comementing on the jumper or their actions, but if they do have to pay, the vast majority of states have laws that say you provide an amount equal to the current value or the lost/damaged items, not the replacement value.

-Blind

What states? Show me the statutes.

I'll have to do a little reserach and get back to you on specific statutes. The factoid itself came from my business law class last week.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."