Considerations when chopping a rental canopy

[happythoughts 0]

I had a friend who was doing video wearing gloves. The gloves got knotted into the steering lines. On the video, he played with it over 40 seconds before chopping it. Too low. Be really aware how long you play with it.

If I am above my hard deck, I'll still play with it. Below that, buh-bye. Safety is the determining factor.

I have a brand new Sam 150 and I would chop that sucker over the swamp in a heartbeat. Cost is not in the decision. Safety only.

[catfishhunter 1]

Her Question was

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What I'm wondering is if anyone else has a story where they treated rental gear differently than their own, or if that doesn't enter their minds.

She had stated she had talked to her instructors and was confident in her decision so I was not going to comment on what she did or why she did it.

Was only referring to her question.. Would I treat it any differently because it was rented.Which I responded"Last thing that EVER should be on yor mind is how much this is going to cost if I cut it away."

Blue Skies

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

IF I CHOP
..............................RENTAL..............MINE
Pay for the repack......YES...................YES
Pay for rigger's bottle..YES...................YES
Pay for lost parts........YES...................YES

IF I KEEP IT
Land safely if
I fix it........................YES...................YES
Land safely if
I fuck up.....................NO......................NO

I don't see a basis for treating it any differently.

[Genn 0]

ok fine....and my answer was No. I would do it on any canopy.

[Ron 7]

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hmmm....Rental or not..your canopy or a friends..whatever....ALTITUDE PERMITTING (which she had)...you wouldnt try to fix the situation if it was possible? I would on any canopy. If its an obvious chop...cya....but a knot (right there)with altitude permitting....I'd try until it's time to say CYA....or until I felt that it was a useless cause.

Many people have died while trying to fix a small problem.

In a high stress situation time warps. I have seen people cut away VERY LOW...They all thought they were much higher.

I have a much simpler approach to mals...Can I land this and survive? If no, then can I fix it NOW...If not its bye-bye time.

I have seen people try to fix shit till it was to late.

BTW the guy Happythoughts is talking about. A good friend, 1500 jumps had mals before and two combat tours in Nam...So he knew about high stress situations...

He died on that jump. Jan 6, 1999.

If you are not sure you can land ANY main...Don't spend the rest of your life trying to fix it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[chuteless 1]

I would hate to think that someone would be killed because of having to fork over any amount of money rather than cutaway. If the main so much as hiccups, get rid of it and worry about the cost when safely back on the ground.

I do feel, however, that the DZ should be responsible for the cost of replacing the main and the reserve repack. They are in business to rent these things to people who trust them, and that is part of the game. It is not up to the student to make sure he/she is over an open area so someone can find the main. They jump where they are told to by DZ personnel, and if the main is lost, that is not the students fault.

A student should be ready to use the reserve without any intimidation from the DZ.

Bill Cole D-41

[dgskydive 0]

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I do feel, however, that the DZ should be responsible for the cost of replacing the main and the reserve repack. They are in business to rent these things to people who trust them, and that is part of the game. It is not up to the student to make sure he/she is over an open area so someone can find the main. They jump where they are told to by DZ personnel, and if the main is lost, that is not the students fault.

This is where these threads have been getting messed up. This is not about student gear. This is about rental gear for upjumpers. Sutdents are taken care of for the very reasons you stated.

An upjumper is different. They are responsible for themselves at this point. Weather they have 30 or 3000 jumps. You chop it you lose it you bought it.

You guys need to understand that gear stores don't make a bunch of profit off of rental gear if any. The money that is gained from rental goes to buy new euipment, to pay for repacks, to pay for repairs, to buy those new Cypres when the old ones are out of date. Do you realize that everytime a reserve is used that it takes away about 20% of it's value? They don't give big discounts for new rental gear to DZ's and Dealers. You guys have no idea how hard it is to make money selling gear.

The rental gear is a huge expense for a dealer. That is why most place only have student gear for you to rent, if you lose their gear they are losing tons of money. Now they can't get all their students up in the air. It would be smarter for them to not even rent the gear. Then where would people be? Not jumping that's where. Sq1 has a huge fleet of demo canopies. We don't make money off of them. We do it so people can plan and simple try out different gear before they buy it. If they are in our demo program it only costs them pennies on the day to jump all the gear sas much as they want everyday! Even f that turns into the sale of a complete rig it doesn't come close to buying a new main if someone loses one and tries to not pay for it. Think about it people.

Dom

[diablopilot 2]

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had this been my canopy, I'd have chopped.

I understand much of this line of questioning is hypothetical but why, if as you say you has "working" time would you have been in a rush to chop your own gear?

Cost?

EVERYONE should realize executing emergency procedures is a last resort. Problems should be worked untill the solution is unavailable.

or to put it another way,

A RESERVE IS NOT GUARANTEED! (your main didn't work, what makes you think the reserve should or should not have any better chance?)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Nightingale 0]

because I looked at the knot and thought "there's no f-ing way this is gonna come out." It surprised me.

[diablopilot 2]

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It surprised me.

I'm glad!

There have been times where I have looked up to see linetwists I were sure were gonna be a "bad" time, and worked the problem.

I have seen a disturbing trend (not pointing any fingers) among jumpers having the idea that a reserve is some sort of magical security blanket.

It would be nice if more advanced licenses required some rudimentary rigging education.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Conundrum 1]

I don't care who has to pay for it, me or the place I rented from, Im chopping in the event of an unfixable problem or malfuntion. The thought of how much it would be would not even be a consideration.

[chuteless 1]

I dont agree. If you have a problem, get rid of it. I'd rather a person live and have to pay it off than see him killed.I think it is totally irresponsible to tell someone to try to untangle a malfunction before using the reserve. Absolutely irresponsible.

I know of one person who tried to solve the problem with a tangled main chute and didnt realize the ground was coming fast. She DIED trying, although she waited to the very last minute to try using her reserve.shye hit the ground and it wasnt near fully deployed....A week to the very day, I told her to give up jumping because she wasnt cut out for it. She got mad at me..I dont care WHo it is or WHERE...if your main misbehaves...chop and save yourself. The tangled main can always be straightened out later...and if it cant be found. thats too damn bad......the live jumper will be.

Bill Cole D-41

[dgskydive 0]

Dom

[diablopilot 2]

Bill,

Your advice is questionable.

You seem to suggest that at the first hint of linetwists a person should not try to solve a posibly "fixable" problem if given a safe amount of working time, but instead go to a complete unknown by firing of a reserve canopy.

A reserve is not a for sure thing.

You speak of a woman who died trying to fix a problem. I know of a simalar situation that happened recently. That person failed to conduct a controlability check above their hard deck, and failed to be altitude aware in dealing with a malfunction.

I have seen someone chop a malfunction, only to experience a second and worse malfunction of a reserve.

A malfunction should be chopped when it is no longer fixable withing the aaceptable amount of time prior to reaching the jumpers specific hard deck, or when efforts to fix the malfunction are no longer productive.

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If you have a problem, get rid of it. I'd rather a person live and have to pay it off than see him killed.

What proof do you offer that the person will live?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[chuteless 1]

First of all, I wasnt talking about a simple one or two times around line twist, although that can cause a toggle to be locked down so you cannot control the canopy.

I am talking about a malfunction where the canopy is so fouled up, still in the bag, or evident that it is not going to inflate...something that should be easily recognizable. If that is the case..CHOP CHOP quickly.

Once it is gone, there is no reason why the reserve wont open...although there is a one in ten million or so chance it too may also have a malfunction.

pretty small chance of it not opening as long as the main is gone.

A much better chance of survival than trying to "work out the problems of a bad main anytime"

I have seen a line twist to the left, for example, with a toggle tied down and locked in the twist causing the canopy to turn rapidly to the right, and that line twist can NEVER come undone. The student had the presence of mind to puch the "talk" button on her radio and said" what should I do"

I didnt even have the word "CUTAWAY" out of my mouth and she was separeted from the main, and the Stevens cutaway system opened the reserve. She's still alive today. Landing with that main, would have killed her.

I would never put a person in that predicament and say "see if you can clear it"

CUTAWAY...thats the only way.

If you are ever called to take the gear of a dead skydiver, you'll think hard on any advice you give someone. I have done it, and will suggest cutaway every time.

Ive used a reserve about 9 times...once when I didnt have enough alt to open a main...I trust a reserve anytime as long as the main isnt out and trailing behind. I even had one of those and the reserve past the main and opened. Great sight it was.

Bill Cole D-41

[diablopilot 2]

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If you are ever called to take the gear of a dead skydiver, you'll think hard on any advice you give someone.

I have been and expect I will be again before I shuffle off this mortal coil.

I suspect you and I are in closer agreement than we appear to be here, but your post left many ambiguities about what was a "chopable" and what was a "fixable" malfunction.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Nightingale 0]

I was pretty sure my malfunction wasn't fixable... but since it was stable and flying, I gave it a go anyway and surprised myself. Had it not been stable or flying, bye-bye main.

[chuteless 1]

Nuts...I'll fix it on the ground after landing with my reserve.. A simple line twist a couple of times around, can be recognized instantly....no need to chop, anything else from the hiccups to a total...chop chop


Bill

[packerboy 3]

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If I am above my hard deck, I'll still play with it. Below that, buh-bye.


Umm... hmmm.... you want to rethink that statement?

The key to having a hard-deck, at least in my opinion, is that something has to be done above it. If I believe that I am 1ft below my hard-deck and I still can't land what is above me, I am dumping the reserve to get as much nylon over my head as possible. WITHOUT chopping. That is what a hard-deck is to me, something that I don't chop below.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

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[relyon 0]

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I was pretty sure my malfunction wasn't fixable...

From your description, it may have been. I think I'd have hook knifed the right control line (possibly the left as well) and landed with rear risers.

I'm glad things worked out for you.

Bob

[MakeItHappen 15]

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If I am above my hard deck, I'll still play with it. Below that, buh-bye.

Umm... hmmm.... you want to rethink that statement?

The key to having a hard-deck, at least in my opinion, is that something has to be done above it. If I believe that I am 1ft below my hard-deck and I still can't land what is above me, I am dumping the reserve to get as much nylon over my head as possible. WITHOUT chopping. That is what a hard-deck is to me, something that I don't chop below.

There are TWO altitudes referred to in these statements.

One altitude is the decision altitude.
This is the altitude that you decide to execute emergency procedures by.
Common slang for this altitude is 'hard deck' or 'black line'.

The other altitude is the no-cutaway under altitude.
This altitude is also commonly called the 'hard deck'.

Recommendations by USPA:

Decision altitude:
2500 feet AGL for students and A license holders
1800 feet AGL for B, C & D license holders

No-cutaway under altitude:
1000 feet AGL

You mileage may vary.

The key to making these guidelines work, is to maintain altitude awareness. That means you have to make a conscious and deliberate effort to check altitude. Look at the ground more than the canopy. It is all too easy to get your attention sucked into that main.

You also do not have to wait until you get to the Decision altitude before cutting away and pulling reserve. Sometimes, you KNOW right away that the main won't open.

SIM Reading Material:
Sec 5-1
Cat A
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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Ron 7]

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Recommendations by USPA:

Decision altitude:
2500 feet AGL for students and A license holders
1800 feet AGL for B, C & D license holders

No-cutaway under altitude:
1000 feet AGL

You mileage may vary.

Yep, I have cut away at about 700 feet once. I was not going to survive the landing, and I was not looking forward to doing CRW with myself.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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suspect you and I are in closer agreement than we appear to be here, but your post left many ambiguities about what was a "chopable" and what was a "fixable" malfunction.

And here is my take...Most times reserves work. I have seen many people wait to long to deal with a mal...

So knowing that a reserve mal is RARE (Yes, it can happen, but it is very rare) and that people lose track of time when in that situation, and time is altitude, altitude is saftey.

I would rather a person cutaway from something they THNK they MIGHT be able to fix instead of trying to fix it and find out they can't, or spending the rest of their life trying to fix it.

Its safer to cutaway than spend the time trying to fix something that is not landable. you MIGHT fix it...you might also spend to much time messing with it and die.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

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That is what a hard-deck is to me, something that I don't chop below.

So that's what the definition of "is" is.
Nice to know that semantics isn't a lost art.

[Genn 0]

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Many people have died while trying to fix a small problem.

Agreed.
There was an unfortunate incident at our DZ where somebody cutaway too low from line twists..That person lost altitude awareness.

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I have a much simpler approach to mals...Can I land this and survive? If no, then can I fix it NOW...If not its bye-bye time.

Exactly what I'm trying to say.