Winds

[canopycudler 0]

Before I start this post. I would like to let you know that I found dropzone.com the same month that I discovered skydiving, I just haven't posted in quite a while.

A month or so back, a post was made Titled "Scary thing under canopy" or something of the sort by a student at Archway Skydiving Center. The post was a valid question, to which he deserved a valid answer.

He felt that his canopy was collapsing on that jump. He had THREE JUMPS, guys. How is it that if a student came down from a jump and said "i couldn't breathe," we laugh it off as they have "THREE JUMPS?" Perhaps his canopy really did collapse due to winds. and perhaps the other student really truly couldn't breathe. If you dismiss one for jump numbers, you must dismiss the other.

What really irritates me the most here are comments like these.

"Look for a new Dropzone. One that won't get you seriously injured or killed." - JKT

Kid, you have 86 jumps... are you SERIOUS?? The only thing you have learned with 86 jumps is how to ACT like you know what your talking about.

AND WHAT EVEN irritates ME MORE ARE PEOPLE THAT SHOULD KNOW BETTER and don't such as:

"No Student which is defined as anyone not possessing a USPA A License, may jump when there are more than 14 mph winds" - SKYMONKEY.

That is a true statement, but you forgot to mention the exceptions, such as wind waivers.

AND MY PERSONAL FAVORITE...

"Fortunatley nothing bad happened, and youlearned a lesson, DO NOT jump when the winds are high, or when anything else about the jump makes you feel uncomfortable. If your instructors insist that you do, find a new dropzone."- Bill Von

Funny you should say that, because that SAME student came back to Archway this weekend. He walked in the door and found everyone on the ground. It was a beautiful, warm midwest day. I believe he felt the same wind we did when standing outside. I would also like to point out that we have a Wind Meter something that a LOT of dz's don't have for liability reasons. It shows the gusts AND the 10 min average. It is in plain view and encouraged for licensed jumpers to use when making a decision to get on the load. The winds were averaging 20mph on Sunday. He was explained by the DZO about winds, gusts and turbulence today, and how it can affect your canopy flight.

His question regarding the flight characteristics of his canopy that day should have been addressed with a valid answer. Not dropzone bashing. Nobody forced him or anyone else to jump that day or any other day. They manifest themselves. The winds are carefully watched and noted before each load. Just because we have a wind waiver for up to 20mph winds does NOT mean that all students are allowed to jump in 20mph winds. As far as canopies that are landing in cornfields, the student that made that post would not possibly know if those were students backing up, or licensed jumpers renting gear. Perhaps they WERE students. They could have been on jump 18, 19, or 20. Perhaps the spot was perfect, but they flew downwind of the landing area. The instructors at Archway, brief and debrief each and ever student, explaining to them why the ended up where the did.

Archway's standards of safety are impeccable. It is the home dropzone of our Regional Director, Gary Peek, our S&TA, Jack Churchill and Lew Sanborn.

Our DZO's Jason and Anita care more about their students and jumpers than ANY other dropzone I have visited. They have loaned AAD's to newly licensed jumpers that couldn't afford one. They have provided ditters for those who could benefit from them. They have pulled us off skydives that we are not ready for and grounded us in questionable winds.

These forums, especially this one, is for the safety and training of others. I believe they are here to educate people on this sport. Every post should be for knowledge and discussion of the incident. They are not for dropzone or instructor bashing.

I don't believe you have ever seen any Archway jumper get on here and bash another person or dropzone. That is not how we were taught. Listen learn and Skydive, those are he best tools out there!

Be safe guys. Blue Ones.
Tina
D26222

good skydives, good friends and good beer.. thats what its all about.
..

[Blahr 0]

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"Fortunatley nothing bad happened, and youlearned a lesson, DO NOT jump when the winds are high, or when anything else about the jump makes you feel uncomfortable. If your instructors insist that you do, find a new dropzone."- Bill Von

I fail to see how this could possibly be interpreted as bad advice. Nor does it single out any dropzone or instructor.

I dont need 800+ jumps to know good advice when I see it, and this is good advice.

[jlmiracle 7]

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AND WHAT EVEN irritates ME MORE ARE PEOPLE THAT SHOULD KNOW BETTER and don't such as:

"No Student which is defined as anyone not possessing a USPA A License, may jump when there are more than 14 mph winds" - SKYMONKEY.

That is a true statement, but you forgot to mention the exceptions, such as wind waivers.

Was there a waiver for the winds at Archway for the day in question? I don't know of any dropzone that gets a wind waiver for their students. It may happen, I've just never seen it done.

I didn't read much of that thread on scary canopy ride. I'm curious what the student JM's told them after the student questioned the canopy. I'm assuming the student DID talk to their instructors about it.

Not sure what you are trying to get out your post. Some of the people you are questioning are highly experienced and do know better.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Nobody forced him or anyone else to jump that day or any other day. They manifest themselves.

It is not the student's decision, it is the Instructor's.

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As far as canopies that are landing in cornfields, the student that made that post would not possibly know if those were students backing up, or licensed jumpers renting gear.

If jumpers were backing up using the same gear the student would use, the Instructor should not have taken the student up. Students should not be backing up under canopy. That situation is difficult enough for experienced jumpers.

Derek

[canopycudler 0]

I swore I wouldn't respond to stupid replys but unfortunately I have lower my standards.

I NEVER SAID THAT WASN'T GOOD ADVISE! The reason that i picked it as my personal favorite was becuase the kid came BACK to Archway this weekend when the winds were high, NOT UNDERSTANDING why we weren't jumping.

He DIDN'T LEARN a THING from Bill Von becuase the QUESTION he ASKED was NEVER answered. He wanted to know WHY HIS CANOPY'S FLIGHT CHARACTERSTICS WERE DIFFERENT THAT DAY AND WAS IT RELATED TO THE WIND, he didn't ask you all for opinions on the capibility of the instructors at Archway, or for you to QUOTE the SIMS a million times to him.

good skydives, good friends and good beer.. thats what its all about.
..

[billvon 2,406]

>He wanted to know WHY HIS CANOPY'S FLIGHT CHARACTERSTICS
>WERE DIFFERENT THAT DAY AND WAS IT RELATED TO THE WIND . . .

And I answered him. He asked if things far away could cause turbulence under canopy in high winds, and I replied:

"Even lines of trees far away, power poles, and low hills can cause turbulence. Even the air itself can be turbulent; thunderstorms come from cubic miles of warm, turbulent air rising through cooler air."

Canopies have problems when the winds are high, often caused by turbulence off fixed objects. You can avoid the problems by remaining on the ground. Problem and solution. Would a treatise on the change in stagnation point on ram-air flexible wings due to changing angle of attacks seen in turbulence been more instructive to this jumper? I doubt it. At three jumps, a jumper should know the effects of high winds on a canopy, and should rely on their JM's to tell them when that wind is too high. If they are unable to do that, due to a tendency for their JM's to want to jump in high winds, a different DZ might be in order.

Is that really what happened? Impossible to know. All we know is what the poster tells us about what happened. We could assume he's lying, but that seems counterproductive (and somewhat rude.)

>he didn't ask you all for opinions on the capibility of the instructors
>at Archway, or for you to QUOTE the SIMS a million times to him . . .

If he knew the answer he wanted, it would have been a simple matter to ask someone to give him that exact answer. Often, when a jumper asks a question here, he will get an answer he did not expect, or even does not like. If he prefers to not read the answers, he is not required to do so.

[Blahr 0]

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I swore I wouldn't respond to stupid replys but unfortunately I have lower my standards.

The good news, then, is that you have NOT lowered your standards. My reply was not stupid. You may not have agreed with it, but that doesnt make it stupid.

I'm not sure why it angered you but may I politely suggest that you have a little time out?

[Leah 0]

I think that canopycudler is completely justified in making her initial post. I have never even jumped at archway but I think that you are missing the point. The assumption that the winds were in excess of 20mph is just that an assumption and is completely without all of the facts.

Have you ever found that you have been under canopy and the winds pick up? Maybe this was the case.

Have you ever caught terbulance in 14mph winds? Maybe this was the case.

I could continue this all day but I won't because I got some jumping to do. You all know the maybe factors that could have caused this situation to happen. So with that farewell.

Blue Skies and Downwind Landings
Leah

[sunshine 2]

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Was there a waiver for the winds at Archway for the day in question? I don't know of any dropzone that gets a wind waiver for their students. It may happen, I've just never seen it done.

I frequently jump at a DZ that has a wind waiver to 16mph for students. The waiver is always in place, not given on a day to day basis.

BTW, i've jumped at Archway a few times. DZO Jason is definately very safety conscious of all the jumpers there.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Leah 0]

Stupid

[Blahr 0]

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Stupid

Thank you for the vote of confidence, but I prefer "moron" if you want to call me names

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The assumption that the winds were in excess of 20mph is just that an assumption and is completely without all of the facts.

Have you ever found that you have been under canopy and the winds pick up? Maybe this was the case.

"The winds were averaging 20mph on Sunday."- Canopycudler

People keep defending the DZ, but the facts remain. No one seems to deny the facts or deny that students backing up under canopy is un-safe.

Derek

[Leah 0]

Did you actually read the post? When canopycudler stated that the winds were 20mph she was refering to Sunday (01/11/04) of this past weekend. She stated the the same student who started this whole debate, came back to archway and wanted to jump on a day when the winds were at 20mph. The students initial post was about a month ago so the fact that the winds were 20 mph on Sunday has no baring on your opinions or this post.
You are completely correct in saying that a for a student to be backing up is unsafe. Nobody is denying this but in stating that it is the fault of the instructor (I believe) is debatable. If you are saying that it is the fault of the instructor or drop zone then I guess if you go to driving school and have an accident it is the fault of your driving instructor. Some responsibility must be taken by all the parties and I do not know anyone who can honestly guarantee that something like this won't happen. Be prepared for any and all situations, student or not.

[Blahr 0]

At the risk of being insulted further, if a student doesnt know that 20 mph wind is too much for him/her, who is at fault?

There is culpability on both sides here. The primary responsibily for any persons safety lies with the person themselves. That said, is it not the responsibility of the instructors to provide the students with this important information so that they can then make educated choices?

I'm seeing people on these forums being blamed for the fact that the student came back weeks later still unaware that 20 mph is too windy for them to jump.

Now THATS stupid

[Hooknswoop 19]

I thought canopycudler was referring to the day in question. My fault.

From the student that was backing up:

"Actually there were a total of 4 student planes going up. My friend had taken the first jump course that day and we asked to go up together, so they bumped us back to last of the 4. The first 2 planes full of students, we stood there and watched all the students floating, backwards, right past the DZ and into the surrounding cornfields. I felt fortunate to be the last as to they would have the spotting down pat by the time they got to me!!! "

[Quote]You are completely correct in saying that a for a student to be backing up is unsafe. Nobody is denying this but in stating that it is the fault of the instructor (I believe) is debatable.

Finally. Several posters have been jumping up and down, exclaiming that it is a safe DZ. Putting students out in winds were they are backing up is no safe. Apparently they did this all day long, on the day in question.

The Instructor should have been aware of the winds prior to taking up the student(s). If jumpers were backing up on the previous 4 loads and the winds hadn't changed, it is easy to conclude that the students should be allowed to jump. This is not a case of the winds increasing and the jumpers exiting without that knowledge. The Instructor knew the winds and went anyway. It is their responsibility and therefore, their fault. Being an Instructor is a big responsibility.

[Quote]If you are saying that it is the fault of the instructor or drop zone then I guess if you go to driving school and have an accident it is the fault of your driving instructor.

If they knowingly put me in a situation that is unsafe for a person to learn how to drive, then yes. If I had never driven a car and they took me on the freeway at night on my first outing, yes.

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Some responsibility must be taken by all the parties and I do not know anyone who can honestly guarantee that something like this won't happen.

How can someone with 3 jumps make a valid risk assessment of the conditions to determine if it is safe for a student?

[Quote] I do not know anyone who can honestly guarantee that something like this won't happen.

I can. “Hmm, the last four loads of jumper were backing up and they were using the same gear my student(s) would be using. Sorry Johnny, the winds are too high, I can take you up until they die down.” Not too difficult a thought process or decision.

[Quote]Be prepared for any and all situations, student

So, if I put a student out with a bad spot in 30-mph winds with a round reserve and they have a cutaway then they end up in power lines, it isn’t my fault, it is the student’s fault? I disagree. Instructors are not supposed to put students in unsafe situations. That is their responsibility, no the student’s.

Derek

[jlmiracle 7]

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At the risk of being insulted further, if a student doesnt know that 20 mph wind is too much for him/her, who is at fault?

There is culpability on both sides here. The primary responsibily for any persons safety is the person themselves. That said, is it not the responsibility of the instructors to provide the students with this important information so that they can then make educated choices?

I'm seeing people on these forums being blamed for the fact that the student came back weeks later still unaware that 20 mph is too windy for them to jump.

Now THATS stupid

I agree, except the student probably didn't know but should have known about the winds and jumping. Not everything covered in the first jump course is remembered.

and Leah, I don't think the driving school is a good comparison. If you are a driving school instructor and its the first or second time for the student to be behind the wheel of the car, and the student gets in an accident, IMO, the instructor is partially at fault because driving school cars (at least the ones I have seen) give the instructor the ability to take control.

Now under canopy, an instructor can't be there. We can only give radio instructions and hope they respond and hope they paid attention in class. Students do the craziest things sometimes, and sometimes those students don't get what they were expecting and over-react.

Judy

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[crzjp20 0]

all igot to says is take a deep breath and dont blow up beacuse someone told someone something on the internet.

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'm seeing people on these forums being blamed for the fact that the student came back weeks later still unaware that 20 mph is too windy for them to jump.

Of course he was unaware that he couldn't jump in those conditions-

"I did ask when they call it quits. And just ground the students. I was told that the winds can not be gusting more than 20 mph."

Derek

[dkf1979 0]

OK! OK!! OK!!! I'm the damn student who posted the damn question in the first place. Can we please drop the whole thing? I just asked a simple question about canopy performance. I never questioned Archways ability to make safe skydives. Archways safety record speaks for itself. The whole post got blown completely out of proportion. And the day of the skydive, every skydive went great! Everyone I knew that went up was happy, and came down much happier. I'm positive you can't be more safety conscious than Archway is. As I said before, there safety record proves that. As far as instruction at Archway, my instructors are very experienced, and very well trained. I got my answer on what the feeling was that I felt under canopy. Can we be done now. Please?

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[billvon 2,406]

>You are completely correct in saying that a for a student to be
> backing up is unsafe. Nobody is denying this but in stating that it is
> the fault of the instructor (I believe) is debatable.

?? The instructor is responsible for deciding when conditions are safe to jump in. If he was on the first load that backed up, then not a big deal - the winds kicked up unexpectedly, and he backed up, and they grounded students for a while. If an instructor regularly puts up students, and they back up all the way to the DZ, that's a problem, waiver or not.

> If you are saying that it is the fault of the instructor or drop zone
> then I guess if you go to driving school and have an accident it is
> the fault of your driving instructor.

If he decides to take you out for your third driving lesson ever in the middle of a major snowstorm, then yes, it is his fault for trying to train you to drive in unsafe conditions. Students do not yet have the good judgement to decide when conditions are safe or not; that's one reason they are students.

[dkf1979 0]

If I would have been at the dropzone when I had that question. I would have asked an instructor who would have been eager to answer my question. NOBODY IS AT FAULT.

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[ChileRelleno 0]

Dude, stop yelling so much....

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[MarkM 0]

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I'm positive you can't be more safety conscious than Archway is.

Well at MY dropzone, they cover the landing area with those little white styrofome peanets so the experienced jumpers always have a safe landing. And they wrap the AFF students up in 100 yards of bubble wrap so they bounce softly when they hit the ground.

So I dunno about that...

[mjosparky 3]

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Stupid

Dear nothing entered, nothing entered, nothing entered. Don't be bashful, jump right in there.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Blahr 0]

Well, you know, out there at the ol "No home dropzone entered." they have no trouble expressing themselves openly and honestly.

I'd like to jump there someday but I cant. I'm too stupid
I dont even have enough jumps to act like I know what I'm talking about. I think you need 86 for that and I only have 72.