why dont you post your jump numbers?

[Ron 7]

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But the jump numbers thing is clear. You would only hide them to hide a portion of your experience.

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I think I get your meaning, but could you expand on this opinion? I don't want to assume anything...
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Will

Will,
Many people want to think they are better than the number of jumps they have done.

While jump numbers are not a perfect way to determine experience and skill thay are easy to record or prove. And there is a certain presumed ability level that is attached to each jump.

A guy with 1,000 jumps is more likley to perform better than a guy with 100 jumps. Just as the guy that has done ten 100 ways is more qualified and much more likley to perform well on a 200 way than a guy that only has one 100 way under his belt.

The problem is that everyone wants to think they are not the norm, that they are "special", that they are more skilled, have more knowledge, and are smarter than others at the same number of jumps.

While it COULD be true...Most times it is not.

Well people with low jump numbers don't want to be labled as a certain skill level. So they lie about the number of jumps they have, or just don't tell people.

These people in most cases are hiding their experience to to taken more seriously, or to aviod the stigma of being a low timer.

Simple facts are that while not being 100% accurate what police call "profiling" does work. If there was a violent crime and you have two suspects, one a little 70 year old lady with a cane, and a 17 year old kid that is punched and inked...Who would you think its was?

Well a guy with 100, 200, 300 ect jumps very rarely will not fit into the "normal" experince curve.

However, people (particularly skydivers and others in "high risk" sports) don't like to think they are the norm, or that they are not special.

There is a funny quote I like : "Remember you are special and unique, just like everyone else".

While I could not give a rats ass what people list on their profiles, cause I have enough experience to see right through the BS (When it comes to general skydiving...If it were a topic on a subject I know nothing about..such as freeflying, I tend to keep my mouth shut.)

In fact many times when I want to feel like a flailing geek, I go do a FF jump with someone that has 3000 less jumps than me, but they have 300 more FF jumps than me and make me look stupid. When I do this I shut my mouth and listen to their EXPERIENCE since they have more than me....But I would not listen to them when it comes down to flying a canopy in traffic, or some other area where my experience is greater than theirs.

Some people don't want to listen and will argue every little thing even if it is clear they are much less skilled.

Some of these people to avoid be seen as having less experience or knowledge just simple lie, or don't fill out the profile.

The danger is not me listening to them, but a guy that has 100 jumps and can't tell the poster is full of shit. If they can look and see two people saying opposite things...And both posters have honestly filled out their profiles. It can help them decide if they want to listen to the guy with 3000+ jump and several ratings over 11 years or the guy with 1 year and 100 jumps with no ratings.

If this were my site you would not be allowed to post unless your profile had some basic information, and for jump #'s things like "Never enough" , "More than you" and "None of your buisness" would not be allowed to be entered.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Would I listen to the yellow belt with an opinion, give him or her a chance to speak, and to test their theory? ABSOLUTELY.

What if they told you you were wrong and a crappy instructor? You have told me that before...case in point:

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By taking the attitude you have, you create an environment that is hostile to newbies. If they can't ask a question or voice an opinion, how are they supposed to learn anything? Deal with the issue, not the person.

Well what if you voiced your opinon many times and all the time they told you that you were wrong?

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Christopher: would it work if I do it this way?
Me: probably not. you're dropping your guard on your left side. You're welcome to try it anyway, though.
Him: ok. lets see how it goes.
Me: *SMACK*
Him: Owwww. I guess that wasn't the best way to do it, was it?

The problem with skydiving is that *SMACK* sound is often a body hitting the ground and exploading like a water ballon.

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Sure, you have the people that won't listen no matter what you tell them. Those folks, in my classes, become my examples. Although THEY refuse to learn what I have to teach, they present a GREAT opportunity for me to use them to teach others.

Just like I use fatality reports. But why do some people still think a 1.5 loaded Stiletto at 100 jumps is OK?

When I taught martial arts I did the the same thing you talked about..I showed them why...The difference is that they didn't have to die to learn the lesson. If fact, just like I am sure you can I could pull the attack so I hit them just hard enough to let them know I could have done more.

We are dealing with life and death here.

The ground does not pull its punches.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

You can talk someone through different scenarios to illustrate your point.

Someone doesn't have to be physically shown in order to be taught.

If someone makes a statement you disagree with, post evidence to illustrate your point. If you just brush them off as a newbie and don't actually address the issue, both they and every other newbie reading the thread, misses out on the opportunity to learn something, or at least, pick up a few things to ask their instructors about.

I guess my point is that people are afraid to post their jump numbers because they think people won't talk to them or answer their quesitons, or will respond with an awful attitude.

It's about sticking to the issues. If someone says that they think newbies learning to swoop is a good thing, responding with "you've only got ten jumps, you don't know shit" is counterproductive. Saying "newbies lack the canopy skills, experience, and ability to execute a proper swoop. It is dangerous for anyone without proper experience to attempt a swoop because [insert your reasoning here]." might be a little more helpful, not only to the person posting, but to anyone lurking the thread who may have the same question/idea. Even though it might not sink in to the poster themselves, it may sink in to people you don't even know are reading.

oh... if someone in my class ever said I was a bad instructor, I'd say that they are:
1. welcome to show themselves the door.
2. welcome to speak to the head instructor
3. welcome to come up to the front of the class and give it a go themselves.

[JohnMitchell 14]

***I hate seeing people tell newbies that they are not "qualified to have an opinion."

If I'm qualified enough to throw myself out of a plane, I'm qualified to have an opinion on certain aspects of my gear.

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Right on! Like I tell my students about malfunctions, it's your ass in the harness, not mine. You make the call as best as you can, and we'll not second guess you. The question on AADs has the same reply from me.
In these forums, we're exchanging viewoints, experiences, and opinions. I look for a well thought out opinion as much as an experieinced opinion. And now that I'm learning to free fly, I'm taking advice from a lot of people with less jumps than me. . . and lovin' it.

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[Ron 7]

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If someone makes a statement you disagree with, post evidence to illustrate your point.

You mean like all the posts on lowtimers and small HP canopies?

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I guess my point is that people are afraid to post their jump numbers because they think people won't talk to them or answer their quesitons, or will respond with an awful attitude.

They should get over that. Being humble is the best way to learn.

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It's about sticking to the issues. If someone says that they think newbies learning to swoop is a good thing, responding with "you've only got ten jumps, you don't know shit" is counterproductive

It is also very accurate. And most who think its a good idea to jump HP canopies with little of no experience will not listen anyway.

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Saying "newbies lack the canopy skills, experience, and ability to execute a proper swoop. It is dangerous for anyone without proper experience to attempt a swoop because [insert your reasoning here]." might be a little more helpful, not only to the person posting, but to anyone lurking the thread who may have the same question/idea. Even though it might not sink in to the poster themselves, it may sink in to people you don't even know are reading.

So does..."You have 10 jumps and you really don't know what you are atalking about" . The difference is that you want to be be popular, I just want them to be safe. I have learned that my approach is for those that would rather be told the truth and not be treated like children. And the simple truth is that those that are going to listen are going to listen no matter what the approach is...Those that will not listen wil not no matter how sugar coated I make it.

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oh... if someone in my class ever said I was a bad instructor, I'd say that they are:
1. welcome to show themselves the door.
2. welcome to speak to the head instructor
3. welcome to come up to the front of the class and give it a go themselves.

You forgot the show them they are wrong...Which you said you did in the proir example.

As it is here I still write so that maybe that person does not read it, but someone else does.

If the person does not care to listen I am not going to beg them to listen...They will or will not meet an early demise due to their stupidity. I presented the information and if the choose to listen I will teach them all day long. If they choose to ignore me..Then thats a choice they make. I used to care that they listen...Now I know they never will, and I can save my time for those that will.

as for your option #3...That is the one thing I don't agree with when it relates to skydiving...Low timers giving skydiving advice is a dangerous path. And I don't want that path littered with bodies.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Michele 1]

Ron, it's not that what you've got to say isn't valuable - it is. It's that you're talking to the wrong person.

There is a poster here who has three different names, and refuses to fill in their profile. This person has a ton of valuable experience, but according to you, we shouldn't listen to them simply because they don't fill in their profile.

I don't post my jump numbers for two reasons:
~I don't think my paltry jumps amount for anything, but I can make intelligent comments about things I've experienced and seen. Discounting that simply because of jump numbers ignores sometimes the fact that lessons are learned not just in the air, but on the ground, listening to people like you, watching people get hurt, pestering people with questions, and watching reserves get packed....

Why do people post their experiences? Sometimes it's for ego, sure, but it's also to share the lesson. Thus the incidents forum, right? Let me be perfectly clear: you can't learn how to skydive from a website. But you can think about things, and you can learn lessons about skydiving - specifically, errors others make that you really shouldn't try to duplicate. There is no substitute for air time, but that doesn't negate the learning which goes on on the ground.

~Second reason: people have made incredibly rude comments to newbies in this sport that shuts them down and makes them feel like they shouldn't be asking questions.

Asking questions is a wonderful way to work through some of the finer aspects in the sport, and should be encouraged, not negated. Some of the people I learn best from - and I am not unique - make sure I've asked all the questions I can think of, and then prompt me if I've missed an angle they think is important.

I can only rely on myself in the sky...but I can rely on a wealth of knowledge and experience on this board, and with my instructors/mentors, which I can take with me and rely on in the sky. You are absolutely right - skydiving is a matter of life and death...and I would hate to see someone die because they were too intimidated to ask a question.

In the end, jump numbers can encourage a person to belittle others - and slam them for asking questions...being told "You're a newbie - shut up!" invalidates their experience, and, if their experience is invalidated without justification, they are ultimately put at higher risk because now they are hesitant to ask questions...which can, in the end, kill them.

As for me, it doesn't matter about jump numbers. I know who I can ask, and who I can't. I know who will take the time to help me understand what's right and wrong about my thoughts, without demeaning me and insulting me. And those are the folks I rely on.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Fast 0]

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The problem is that everyone wants to think they are not the norm, that they are "special", that they are more skilled, have more knowledge, and are smarter than others at the same number of jumps.

Do you really think that it is fair to generalize and say that everyone who doesn't post the number of jumps they have in their profile is that type of person? Do you really think that every skydiver thinks that they are better than the norm regardless of what they post or if they have ever been to DZ.com?

Is that a fair thing to say and assume about a person if you don't even know them? Don't worry I wont get in a big argument with you, I don't care about this specific topic that much, but it just struck me as odd that you would say that everyone is like that.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Nightingale 0]

#3 was an option in my studio. Letting a newbie teach a FJC or something like that is silly simply because you may not have a chance to undo the damage. If someone makes a wrong statement about skydiving, the statement is wrong because what the person wrote is incorrect. The jumper is not wrong because they only have ten jumps. they are wrong because they have inaccurate information. I've learned a lot more from people who've taken the time to correct inaccurate info that I may have than from people who've just said "you've only got X jumps, you don't know shit" and never bothered to provide the accurate info.

and if someone did choose the option to teach my martial arts class, I'd let them teach the first half, and then use the second half to show why what he taught either would or wouldn't work. A learning tool for my students, and an education for the problem student as to why I am the instructor and they are not.

I tell my newbie students "if you have a question, ASK. if you think you understand something, explain it back to me so I can make sure." I really hope someone wouldn't stand quietly in the back of the class and smile and nod, because they miss out on opportunities for learning and correction. When I'm teaching, I don't want to just hear "Yes, Ma'am." I want to hear "Ma'am, what about...?" or "Ma'am, what happens if I do this?" or "Ma'am, if I've got it right, what you mean is..." That way, I know if they really get it.

I can tell my students a million times "if you punch with your thumb inside your closed fingers, you will break it. Punching like that puts extreme pressure on your finger joint and bone, and a sharp impact can break or dislocate it." Most listen. I try to grab those that don't listen and re-arrange their fingers. Every so often, one person, no matter how many times I tell them or show them, doesn't believe me and slams their incorrectly made fist into a heavy bag and breaks their thumb. Those folks become my "incident reports" when they're sitting in the back of the studio watching class with their hand in a cast.

Because my students not only know HOW to throw a punch, they know WHY they're taught to do it the way they are, they can adapt what they've learned to start to make choices for themselves.

If I tell them "we don't kick above the knee in this technque because it will put you off balance if you kick higher." they can take that information and apply it to, say, a sparring match, where they'll choose to sweep the leg rather than kick to the head. If I just told them "don't kick above the knee in this technique because I'm the instructor, you're the student, and you don't know shit." they never receive the explanation that lets them actually learn. It would be like asking them to memorize their multiplication tables without ever explaning the concept behind multiplication. When the answer is just "because I know more than you." the student misses out on the opportunity to learn.

[BETO74 0]

You know my jump # Denise , and we also jump together. right

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[AggieDave 6]

I don't have the exact number posted, and haven't had the exact number posted, but update about every time I pass "standard" number. Before I had 1000 jumps, it was about every 50 jumps I'd update it. Now I'm going to keep it to the hundreds. Why? Well, I figure the difference in me saying I have 1010 jumps or 1050 jumps doesn't really matter.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 7]

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Ron, it's not that what you've got to say isn't valuable - it is. It's that you're talking to the wrong person.

More than just me, you and her read this...How do you know I'm talking to the wrong person?

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There is a poster here who has three different names, and refuses to fill in their profile. This person has a ton of valuable experience, but according to you, we shouldn't listen to them simply because they don't fill in their profile

Actually no, my actual quote was:

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Post your jump numbers (And be honest) and if your words are good people will listen no matter what you jump #'s are..And if your words are BS then they will not. But it does help with people who are on the fence about if they should listen to you or not.

and

when you start posting in the Informative forums...Well your experience is very valuable. Its not always 100% accurate, but it is a good start.

So I never said not to listen...I said I treat them as suspect, and that people on the fence on if they are going to listen to them will not.

Simple thing is it takes 10 seconds to add a jump #...Give me a good reason NOT to do it?

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~I don't think my paltry jumps amount for anything, but I can make intelligent comments about things I've experienced and seen. Discounting that simply because of jump numbers ignores sometimes the fact that lessons are learned not just in the air, but on the ground, listening to people like you, watching people get hurt, pestering people with questions, and watching reserves get packed....

Right but new folks on here don't know your history...A simple look at your jumps #'s and time in sport will tell them what you basic understanding is. It will also quantify some of your experiences.

You might be more qualified to talk to someone with 14 jumps about jump fear than me. But it would also show that I might be more qualified than you to discuss body position.

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~Second reason: people have made incredibly rude comments to newbies in this sport that shuts them down and makes them feel like they shouldn't be asking questions.

For this I can only say get a thinker skin. While it is wrong to "Bash" someone just based on jump #'s it is in my opinion worse to let a person give bad information. You will not see me just say "Shut up you only have 10 jumps"...You WILL see me say at your expereince level you don't have the big picture or the experience to make those calls.

And like it or not if I say that, I feel you don't.

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Asking questions is a wonderful way to work through some of the finer aspects in the sport, and should be encouraged, not negated.

I never slam someone for asking a question...I correct people who give advise beyond the scope of their experience.

A guy with 300 jumps telling a guy with 70 that a 1.5 wingload is OK for him. Is wrong. Neither in that group has the experience to make that call.

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being told "You're a newbie - shut up!" invalidates their experience, and, if their experience is invalidated without justification, they are ultimately put at higher risk because now they are hesitant to ask questions...which can, in the end, kill them

Again they should grow a thicker skin.

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As for me, it doesn't matter about jump numbers. I know who I can ask, and who I can't. I know who will take the time to help me understand what's right and wrong about my thoughts, without demeaning me and insulting me. And those are the folks I rely on.

Ok if not for you, since you spend a lot of time on here what about the new people who sign up everyday? How are they going to know who to trust in what area?

I know I can trust your opinion on realestate, and I would like to think that you could trust my thoughts on RW.

But how is a new person going to know that?

Post your damn jump #'s and deal with the BS from those that are going to try and use it against you.

It is for the better good of the whole, not just a single persons ego.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Do you really think that it is fair to generalize and say that everyone who doesn't post the number of jumps they have in their profile is that type of person?

Fair? No, but life is not fair.

Most times is it accurate? Yes. Most times it is a correct assumption.

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Do you really think that every skydiver thinks that they are better than the norm regardless of what they post or if they have ever been to DZ.com?

Every skydiver? No. But most, yes.
And age, sex and currency also play factors.

But if you don't care enough to disclose some very easy to give information, why should I care to treat you any differently?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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If someone makes a wrong statement about skydiving, the statement is wrong because what the person wrote is incorrect. The jumper is not wrong because they only have ten jumps. they are wrong because they have inaccurate information

Correct, but now you have two people telling you two different things. You don't have enough experience to decide for yourself.

One has 100 jumps and tells you it is a great idea.
The other has 5000 jumps and tells you its a bad idea.

Who would be the better choice to listen to?

Would it be better to take sparring advice from a Black Belt, or a Yellow Belt?

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I've learned a lot more from people who've taken the time to correct inaccurate info that I may have than from people who've just said "you've only got X jumps, you don't know shit" and never bothered to provide the accurate info.

Ok, but making people post jump numbers just ADDS to the information, it does not detract from it. The worst thing is you would have to deal with someone telling you to shut up and that you don't know anything...Like I have said grow a thicker skin and ignore them. You think I cry at night when someone writes something bad about me?

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and if someone did choose the option to teach my martial arts class, I'd let them teach the first half, and then use the second half to show why what he taught either would or wouldn't work. A learning tool for my students, and an education for the problem student as to why I am the instructor and they are not.

And in skydiving that is not an option.

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I tell my newbie students "if you have a question, ASK. if you think you understand something, explain it back to me so I can make sure." I really hope someone wouldn't stand quietly in the back of the class and smile and nod, because they miss out on opportunities for learning and correction. When I'm teaching, I don't want to just hear "Yes, Ma'am." I want to hear "Ma'am, what about...?" or "Ma'am, what happens if I do this?" or "Ma'am, if I've got it right, what you mean is..." That way, I know if they really get it.

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Because my students not only know HOW to throw a punch, they know WHY they're taught to do it the way they are, they can adapt what they've learned to start to make choices for themselves.

Ok good, but what do you do if a Yellow belt starts trying to teach your White belts?

Thats what happens on here many times.

Edit to add:
Where you teach martial arts? Do you have cool colored belts? Why? Shouldn't the people just be judged by what they know?

If everyone at the Dojo were wearing white belts you would be able to tell who knows what pretty quickly...I might be able to..But how is the brand new student going to know who to listen to?

Jumps are just like belts...Most times the person with the higher number of jumps knows more than the guy with less...Just like the guy with the higher belt knows more than the guy with the lower belt.

Yes, there are exceptions...I know guys with 500 jumps that are better with some with 1,000 just like I knew a few Green belts that were better fighters than some guys with red belts...

But its not the norm.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[flypunk 0]

ok this is an argument to which there are two ways of taking it.... so lets see yes there are people trying to hide their experience, for whatever reasons... and then there are some trying to hide it so that they don't loose credibility, this is generalizing, but never the less I agree with it. Then from your point of view there are people that will flame you and talk down to you because you don't have enough jumps... yes.. .but this is generalizing as well. Will it happen here yes, will it happen at the DZ as well?

You compare the whole jump issue to one of your yellow belts teaching the class, and then you step in as the instructor and correct them, well that is only because he is identified as a yellow belt which everyone will distinguish and recognized and they will recognize you as the instructor. What will happen if you both showed up in plain clothes in front of a class which don't know either and have him teach and you try to correct? which one will the students take as expert advise, which one will they second guess, which one will get them smacked, before someone corrects them? When you are both identifying yourselves its easy to have a discussion and for you to correct them and minimize the damage, this is not the case if you both are not identified properly and nobody knows your skill levels.

For someone with 27 jumps with an A license asking for advice it is hard to recognize what is legit advice by someone that may have actually experienced it first hand, than that coming from someone with 26 jumps, that he heard that works while sitting in the dz over beers.

Yes a person with 27 jumps has plenty to learn from conversations with other jumpers less and more experience in the forums, but he has no place advising on how he performs, for example (just to use as an example not to sidetrack the thread) cameraflying or swooping or telling the other jumper that he could downsize with no problems jus cuz he has had no problems.

Jump numbers are real, and although they are not enough to judge someone's ability, they are still one of the benchmarks on which we can rely for an approximate skill level judgement. All the skydiving licenses and ratings are based on jumpnumbers as well as ability to perform maneuvers and tasks. Regardless of your ability to perform these taks or maneuvers if you don't have the jumpnumbers you cant get the ratings/licenses... is this wrong as well? How many times have you (and anybody) run into this at their DZ, people looking for jumpers for large formations, how many times do they require certain number of jumps? specially if no one knows your flying skills? is this something to get offended over? no, people are just trying to keep everyone safe and if no one has knowledge of your skills, jump numbers are a good benchmark when it comes to skydiving.

...

[Nightingale 0]

You're correct.

In an ideal world, everyone identifying their jump numbers would be great.

The reasons people don't do it are:

they want to pretend to have more experience than
they do.

they don't want to be ridiculed for asking a question or making a comment just because they're a newbie


The first situation says more about the individual jumper. The second says more about how some people here treat newbies.

[Ron 7]

Great post...Exactly what I was trying to say. (Hell, I thought I was saying it...Oh well.)

One small correction.

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All the skydiving licenses and ratings are based on jumpnumbers as well as ability to perform maneuvers and tasks

AFF I does not have a jump # requirement...It requires six hours of freefall, not a jump number.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[crutch 0]

Kris and Ron, I am sure glad ya'll came to an agreement finally!

blue skies,

art

[happythoughts 0]

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Kris and Ron, I am sure glad ya'll came to an agreement finally!

Group hug!

[Ron 7]

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Group hug!

I'd hug her...Have you seen her picture?

But I get the distinct impreasion that I would get a [miss piggy voice]"hasan chop"[/miss piggy voice]

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[flypunk 0]

sorry dude, didn't know about that one AFF... that is where the tandem instructor throws the student out of the trap door and chases them down grabs em and performs a mr bill right?

anybody say group hug? hey who grabbed me???????

...

[flyangel2 2]

I post my numbers and am darn proud of each skydive. It took me long enough to get to that number. I guess you could call me a "problem child" in my early skydiving days.

Newbies should also be proud of each and every jump they have.

I'm with you Ron, I think that jump numbers should be a required field. This is afterall; a skydiving site. But some people could continue to lie about their numbers. Thank god for someone like you who can read through the BS that some lower experienced people post. I have never taken any offense to you jumping on someone if they are throwing BS out there. Maybe it's cause I haven't felt the power of Ron.
People can die skydiving, and we don't need to sugar coat it. But, there is a polite way to guild them in the right direction. If they don't listen to the advise given here, and continue to post stupid remarks, then I'm all for them getting educated the Ron way.
Keep up the good work.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[livendive 8]

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I fill out my log book after each jump

Wanna catch mine up? It needs my last 130 jumps added to it. :-)

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Look what's just around the corner (hint hint....jump #)

Sweet! Whatcha got planned for #500?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Nightingale 0]

Ok good, but what do you do if a Yellow belt starts trying to teach your White belts?

if a yellow belt tries to teach one of my white belts, I'll let them as long as what they're saying and doing is correct. sometimes a more experienced newbie can say things that make sense to a less experienced newbie, because they've just been through it. Sometimes, someone who's just worked through an issue on their own is a better teacher than someone who's been doing it for fifteen years, because they remember what it was like to not get it.

If the yellow belt was giving incorrect information, I'd intervene saying something like "Do you remember when we went over this technique? what did you learn about (insert relevant question)" and try to intervene without embarrassing the student, because if they're pissed off at me during class, they're less likely to learn what I have to teach them.



Where you teach martial arts?

I taught at a school in orange county. now, I teach private lessons only. I have several instructors, among them Michael Grilli (black under Larry Tatum/Darrin Phillips), John Newburg (Black under Bob White), and my primary instructor, David Brock (6th degree black belt under Bob White, who is a 9th degree)

Do you have cool colored belts?


yes


Why?

so the student has a way to track their own progress. Belt colors give them a way to set little goals along the way and have something to work towards. As I tell my students "your belt only covers two inches of your ass. The rest is up to you."

Shouldn't the people just be judged by what they know?

they are. I've had purple belts who were better fighters than green belts. Each person has their own strengths. For some, sparring isn't it. I pair people up by ability rather than rank. Two brown belts may have very different sparring abilities... kinda like RW and Freefly. Same jump numbers, different experience base.

If everyone at the Dojo were wearing white belts you would be able to tell who knows what pretty quickly...I might be able to..But how is the brand new student going to know who to listen to?

this is why instructors need to keep a careful eye on things and politely jump in if some misinformation is being passed

Jumps are just like belts...Most times the person with the higher number of jumps knows more than the guy with less...Just like the guy with the higher belt knows more than the guy with the lower belt.

you haven't met some of the same black belts I have. I've run into many a black belt at a tournament that can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and I've seen a few who were wearing rank that was probably WAY too low for their ability. Most experienced martial artists will tell you that a black belt doesn't mean a whole lot these days, simply because there's no set standard.

I knew a few Green belts that were better fighters than some guys with red belts...

But its not the norm.

unfortunately, its happening a lot more often, due to the deluge of the "McDojo" who serves up black belts like McDonalds' serves up fries. We have to really stress to our students that its not what's tied around your waist that's important, its what's in your head that matters.

[Ron 7]

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if a yellow belt tries to teach one of my white belts, I'll let them as long as what they're saying and doing is correct.

And you don't see me do that here?

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If the yellow belt was giving incorrect information, I'd intervene saying something like "Do you remember when we went over this technique? what did you learn about (insert relevant question)" and try to intervene without embarrassing the student, because if they're pissed off at me during class, they're less likely to learn what I have to teach them.

And if your yellow belt tells you that they know better and that you are just jelious that they are better at that level than you were....then what?

And do you see me just slam people for not having enough jumps? I only bring up jumps when they tell me I don't know what I am talking about. Thats the real beauty about jump numbers...More means more.

I had martial arts students try to show me up when I was teaching. In those cases I would gently show them why I was in charge of the class. I once had a new "Student" (a guy from another Dojo) come into mine and want to take a class... we let people do that, but they are only allowed to spar with Black Belts or a small handful of Red. This guy came in and tried to "prove" himself. I asked him to show more control, and that was when he broke one of my ribs with a side kick. My next attack put him down and he was shown the door.

In skydiving you can't wait for the guy to bounce to help him.

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so the student has a way to track their own progress. Belt colors give them a way to set little goals along the way and have something to work towards. As I tell my students "your belt only covers two inches of your ass. The rest is up to you."

I used to tell them I had a Black Belt in Akido...and the boots to match (Go john Candy). And that belts did a piss poor job of holding my pants up.

However, a white belt showed respect to the guy with a green belt, and if he had a question he knew that most times the guy with the higher belt was the better choice to go to for information...Now the Instructor was the BEST source, but the difference between Martial arts and skydiving is in martial arts there is almost always a teacher for you...Skydiving not so much.

The jump numbers should be there so that the new guy can tell the relative experience of the person giving advice.

And just like you watchining your folks give advice to watch for bad information, BillVon, Hooknswoop, Bytch, Winsor...I, and many more try to do the same here...And I wish more would.

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they are. I've had purple belts who were better fighters than green belts. Each person has their own strengths. For some, sparring isn't it. I pair people up by ability rather than rank. Two brown belts may have very different sparring abilities... kinda like RW and Freefly. Same jump numbers, different experience base.

Yep and different skill sets..I had folks that could fight well, but the Katas looked horrible. Just like I don't give freefly advice, cause I suck at freeflying.

But many people don't feel that same way and we get people with 100 jumps giving canopy control advice.

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you haven't met some of the same black belts I have. I've run into many a black belt at a tournament that can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and I've seen a few who were wearing rank that was probably WAY too low for their ability. Most experienced martial artists will tell you that a black belt doesn't mean a whole lot these days, simply because there's no set standard.

True, but it has always been that way. And it is no different in skydiving. However, just like ranks in martial arts jump numbers in skydiving are most times a good indication of skill. Instructor ratings are better, but jump numbers don't hurt.

Other things...I was a Martial Arts instructor...notice I said WAS? I still have the cool diploma, and I still ahve the cute little uniform...but Im not current,and I bet my skills are crap...Notice I don't teach MA anymore?

Simple fact is people should post jump numbers...the only down side is the fear that someone will not take you seriously...thats a small price to pay for the better of the group.

I also find it funny that only those with lower jump numbers say jump numbers don't count.

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unfortunately, its happening a lot more often, due to the deluge of the "McDojo" who serves up black belts like McDonalds' serves up fries. We have to really stress to our students that its not what's tied around your waist that's important, its what's in your head that matters.

Yep I know just a place like that...They would guarenty a BB in 3 years. And they even had a correspondance course by mail.

That made me sick.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

the kinda funny thing is, Ron... throughout this whole debate, I was never talking about "you" personally.

Every time I used "you" it was in the hypothetical sense.