UK -- Skydiver sends text message suicide note -- Press Clips

[ladyskydiver 0]

I think a lot of the issue that is surrounding Ali's choice has to do with the way it was done - having a friend videotape it...having friend's watch it and not being able to stop it or help him.

As to the rest, not getting into it.

I feel so very sorry for the video guy - can you imagine the rest of your life living with the thought of "what could I have done differently to prevent my friend from making this choice" and having to replay day after day, hour after hour what happened? I feel sorry for those at the DZ that witnessed a friend go in. I feel so very sorry for his friends and family right now as they go through the grieving process and deal with the thoughts of "I should have known....I could have done something....if only, I had...." And, I feel sorry for Ali to have felt that the only choice he had left was the one he took.

To the family and friends - realize there was nothing you could do. The pain that Ali felt was all internal and unless he spoke out and asked for help, you would not have been able to do anything. Do not beat yourself up. It's not your fault...you couldn't have prevented his choice - as much as you would have liked to. Realize that although he loved and cared for you, he felt that he had no other choice than the one he made. It does not negate his feelings toward you or vice versa. He just needed to end the pain.

To everyone - live your life as though it's your last day on earth. Let people know how much they mean to you. You never know when it will be the last time you have that chance. And if you're contemplating this type of choice, talk to someone. Get help. Know that people care and will try their best to help you.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[mailin 0]

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EVERYONE has had the thought of killing themselves, but most of us get thought it, with friends, family and doctors.

And you would know this because you speak for EVERYONE? I've never thought of killing myself.... sorry you have.

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I have and never will feel bad for someone who chooses to take the easy way out and commit suicide.

Lets hope you never deal with someone who's been institutionalized. My mom spent 6 years bouncing in an out of institutions. One year in particular, when I was 13, she called me a 'worthless bitch, and that she was sorry she had me' - all the while crying uncontrollably. I was mad, for an instant, and then felt incredibly sad for her. She was looking to push her family away. She doesn't remember saying that to me or the electro-shock treatments that happened shortly thereafter - but at that point, dying sounded great to her. I am glad she didn't do it - but I can see how it would have been a welcomed end.

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Life is a gift; enjoy it why you can….

I'm glad YOU see it that way, but not everyone does.... but then again, you speak for everyone right?

Jen

Arianna Frances

[Skylark 0]

It seems people are falling into two camps: those that are horrified by what happened and wouldnt have been able to handle filming something similar for themselves, and those that understand that life is hard, people kill themselves on a regular basis and life goes on.

All skydivers muse about death, not least because we save our own lives on a regular basis. It doesn´t mean we all have a death-wish, rather that we´re simply more in touch with our own mortality. People who dont skydive and who would never, ever throw themselves out of a plane, are usually low-sensation seekers and find death or thinking about the consequences, rather harder to handle.

Alistair wanted to kill himself, he wanted to do it during a skydive, he wanted it to be filmed for the world to see. Its customary to grant a dying man his last wish. Lifes hard and it´s a tragedy he felt miserable enough to want to end it all. But award him the respect for being brave enough to go through with it. In my eyes hes a tragic hero, not an "idiot". Were all going to die eventually, some simply choose to go sooner than the rest of us.

"Into the dangerous world I leapt..." William Blake, Songs of Experience

[Tonto 1]

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Tonto - "no one should be stuck with someone like that" - so you knew Alistair did you? NO! So please return to redneck.com and post there.

The rest - PLEASE try and keep this civil.

Well, since you've excluded me from the rest, I don't need to keep this civil.

Alistair was a fucking nutter. He SMS'd his daughter, and his ex, jumped out of a plane with his friend, climbed out of his gear and whistled in.

A F-U-C-K-I-N-G N-U-T-T-E-R.

I don't need to know someone to know that what they did is nuts. And I don't need to understand. I can form my own opinions, and when my AFF students, and just about every other jumper I know ask me why this happened, I'll tell them, "Because he was a fucking nutter."

Anyone who leaves his wife and children to be with a 23 year old woman - is a nutter.

When she leaves him - as she's almost certain to do - being in the zone, while he's in a completely different phase of his life, and bogged down by too much baggage to even budge, it should come as no surprise.

Disapointing, perhaps.

Heartbreaking, understandably.

Fucking nuts. Undenyably.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[StearmanR985 0]

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All I can say to those people on this thread who call him a fucking idiot is thank God you don't understand suicide, depression, and what it's like to have that as the solution.

Thank God. I hope you never experience it.

Ciels-
Michele

God and suicide don't go together.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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tragic hero

I'm sorry, I can feel compassion for him and for the pain he must have been in. I can wish that there was something that someone could have seen and done. I can even understand to a degree his wish to end his life. And I certainly don't consider him to be an "idiot".

But I cannot come anywhere near comprehending your refering to him as a "tragic hero". That simply beggers belief.

[Skylark 0]

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tragic hero

I'm sorry, I can feel compassion for him and for the pain he must have been in. I can wish that there was something that someone could have seen and done. I can even understand to a degree his wish to end his life. And I certainly don't consider him to be an "idiot".

But I cannot come anywhere near comprehending your refering to him as a "tragic hero". That simply beggers belief.

I doubt youre brave enough to kill yourself. It takes a considerable modicum of guts and conviction to take ones own life.

"Into the dangerous world I leapt..." William Blake, Songs of Experience

[BASE813 0]

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A F-U-C-K-I-N-G N-U-T-T-E-R.

whilst people are alive and well and acting nuts then by all means say so to them......... but in death we are all the same....... show some respect for the dead........... you have no idea how he reached his end.......... you have a small picture from all his years and you make judgement from it..........

the human mind is fragile.....

[Tonto 1]

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It takes a considerable modicum of guts and conviction to take ones own life.

I'm not convinced. Proove it to me.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[BASE813 0]

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I doubt youre brave enough to kill yourself. It takes a considerable modicum of guts and conviction to take ones own life.

true - but it takes more guts to ride out the shit times...............

[freeflynick 0]

Your avitar being a flea-bitten primate seems rather appropriate.

Goodbye.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I can't associate bravery with suicide. I'll not argue about that though as I'm sure it can be put down to a difference in outlook or ideology on the subject, to which we are of course all entitled.

But I think "tragic hero" is something of a step further than being "brave". Who is he being a hero for? Who is going to thank him for this? Heroism is something that must be done for other people. His actions, brave or otherwise, cannot be put down to anything but serving his own interest. Nobody wanted him to die.

Who is he being a hero for?

[Skylark 0]

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It takes a considerable modicum of guts and conviction to take ones own life.

I'm not convinced. Proove it to me.

t

Because as human animals we have an inbuilt, genetic safety mechanism to naturally fear death. If we didnt, wed all be killing ourselves as soon as life took a turn for the worse and the human race would perish fairly soon.

To overcome any intense fear takes a degree of courage. Jumping out of a plane is a good example. How frightened were you when you made your first skydive? What exactly were you frightened of? Dying? To make a firm decision to die and journey into the unknown, in the vain hope that the unknown might just be preferable to life itself, is the bravest act any human can make. A true, tragic hero.

"Into the dangerous world I leapt..." William Blake, Songs of Experience

[BASE813 0]

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true, tragic hero

bollocks......... hero? i think not....... brave i may agree with - yes to face the altimate in human experience is a brave thing to do - but this makes no one a hero - does this mean the old tramp who takes his own life as life on the streets is now too much after so much pain and suffering becomes a hero - no i dont think so............

i know of 2 friends that took their own lives........... i dont see them as heros (no matter what their life paths are) - i see them choosing their own end and for that i give respect................. no matter what it made me feel like..............

[Skylark 0]

Hes a hero because he was distinguished by exceptional courage, nobility and strength.

"Into the dangerous world I leapt..." William Blake, Songs of Experience

[BASE813 0]

yeah and also if you use your frame of reference "thesaurus" - you can come out with "someone to worship,pioneer,hot dog, hotshot, immortal, ......... " - which is all complete shite!

skylark - your past posts seem a little disturbing as they are............ dont add to them!

[freethefly 6]

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What a fucking waste.

This whole thing makes me want to puke...

As someone who was suicidal once, I KNOW it can and does get better. In '98 I was the unhappiest person I knew. Now I'm the happiest person I know, in no small part because of skydiving.

I just wish I coulda talked to him....

damn damn damn.

I know exactly the feeling. Feb. 1995 34 y/o I tested poz for HIV after spending 7 months in Mexico. Hey, what can I say, the ladies were HOT. Well, anyways I never knew that I could be so weak as to try and take my own life. After all, I was at one time a 230 pound biker. Not a freaking RUB (RichUrbanBiker) or some yahoo who rode 100 miles a year for status. I was a 1%, wore colors and affiliated with several organizations. I was fucking badass and mean. No where as mean as a little virus can be. I went from 230 to under 150 pounds the last two months in Mexico. I blamed this on the heavy coke use. I got tested 8 months after leaving Mexico. I was extremely sick. T-cells at 150, viral load through the ceiling and depression so deep I spiraled in and crashed hard. I would eventually try to take my life 6 times. 2 drug overdoses (had a high tolerance to drugs), 2 gassings in my bronco (tailpipe,gardenhose, cops ound me once, neighbor the 2nd time),one hanging (the rope broke), slit my wrist ( wouldn't answer phone, sister called the police).
WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SKYDIVING, you say. Well, all through this a kept remembering the best moment in what was a very violent life was a tandem I did in 1993. I wished I could go back to that moment and continued again on a new path. Well, from the last paragraph one would think I am not very good at sucide, considering that I tried 6 times and failed an equal amount. One success would had tipped the balance. But why mess with a perfect record. Anyways, after some intence pychotherapy with Dr. Giaoni at the V.A., I knew it was time to go back to the place that will change my life forever more.
I feel sorry for the man who killed himself but even more for his family. Also, anyone else contemplating an altering event that will change everyone they know. When you are dead it is the living left to wonder why. I only hope that if you do try to take your life you will be as unsuccessful as I was. Life sucks, look at the world around you, it is at war. It is a violent world but there is a place that I found that brings me so much peace words are dull to discribe it. Find your peace and embrace it. Spread the love.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Michele 1]

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God and suicide don't go together.

You have your religious perspective...I have another. Again, I say to those who haven't experienced depression so badly that suicide is a solution, "thank God!".

Tonto, you're out of line. Sure, have an opinion. Be angry. But to call someone a nutter is beyond the pale. Do keep it civil...even if you think you've been excluded from one person's conversation, you are still writing for the world to read.

Skylark, your catagorization of Ali as "a tragic hero" is as off-base as Tonto.

WillHill, get over yourself. If you really think that you're better than anyone else, I wish you the best; I hope you never experience depression so badly that you begin to understand the other side of the issue.

Ladyskydiver, thanks for your comments.

Fly, I am glad you're doing better, and had the willingness to share. It isn't weakness that brings someone to suicide, though. That's a common misunderstanding that people have about depression and suicide...that they are "weak." Not true.

Everyone. Is there something we can learn from this incident, or are we just talking to hear ourselves speak?

Namecalling isn't going to get anything accomplished. We will not learn how to deal with depression, where to get help, how to help our friends, what to look for, how to listen to someone tentatively reaching out.

Namecalling is a cheap and easy way for you to discount a person's life, his death, and allows you to put up a barrier so you don't have to look at the reality of the situation. Namecalling demonstrates a rage which is wholly inappropriate, and which, to me, demonstrates a failing of you as a human to understand and to have compassion.

Namecalling does nothing other than show how mad you are; but who are you to be angry? Who are YOU to make a judgment on someone who understood something very differently than you ever will? Who are you? So supreme and so perfect and so special that it can't happen to you?

And guess what? Should depression snake it's ugly, secret hands around your heart, and start to squeeze....I will be there for you. Because I understand what it's like to live in blackness, to live in pain, to live under the burden of depression unlike you've ever experienced. I've been there; I made it back, and not by myself...but I made it back. So should you ever find yourself in that circumstance, despite your anger and namecalling and childish railing against something you don't understand, I will be here for you.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[MarkM 0]

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Death is the end result of untreated, undiagnosed depression. Same way death is with cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and other illnesses.

BS. When you get terminal cancer you don't choose to die. When you have heart failure, you don't choose to slowly waste away. Suicide is a choice and depression is treatable.

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What amazes me is the freedom people feel in condemning someone who is suicidal, instead of looking for the humanity in that person, and finding compassion in themselves for that person.

It's because many of us are sick of the "everyone is a victim" BS culture that pervades modern day life. People are responsible for themselves and their actions and I'm sorry, but if you take your life over a breakup with a girl, yes you are an idiot.

No one is attacking that this guy was feeling depressed and most people aren't going to condem a person for killing themselves if they're dying from a terminal painful disease. But to kill yourself when there are other options is indeed stupid, idiotic and selfish.

[Michele 1]

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When you get terminal cancer you don't choose to die. When you have heart failure, you don't choose to slowly waste away. Suicide is a choice and depression is treatable.

I should have been more clear in my wording. Undiagnosed/untreated, as used here, meant also to apply to undiagnosed/untreated cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and so forth. All can be treated, but if it isn't diagnosed, it can't be. That's more what I meant. Sorry for the unclear languaging.

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It's because many of us are sick of the "everyone is a victim" BS culture that pervades modern day life. People are responsible for themselves and their actions and I'm sorry, but if you take your life over a breakup with a girl, yes you are an idiot.

See, I look at what little I know of Ali's life, and see something very different than you do. Someone who, married with children, left that family and took up with someone much younger was already in dire straits. I can almost guarantee that if his last 15 years were examined, there'd be signs and indications of depression apparent from his early 20's. He didn't do this because he broke up with a girl.

I have never said anything about being a victim of depression. I didn't say anything about not being responsible. I didn't say "lay the blame elsewhere". I said nothing of the sort, and disagree with that premise completely.

What's different between me and you is that I've been there. I understand what happens in the brain and the heart and the spirit and the soul in a way intimate and vital. You can't. Not because you're stupid or anything, but because it's like describing "blue" to a blind man. It's not real to you. It can't be unless you've been there. And if you've been there, then comments such as you made wouldn't even be thought of.

What bothers me about this whole thread is the absolute glee that people have in denegrating someone they haven't met, and commenting upon depression like they understand it. It also bothers me to read Skylark's remarks about "tragic hero".

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Alistair was a depressed man, did not get help, and took his own life in a manner which most people disagree with. He isn't a tragic hero, nor should he be vilified for being ill.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[BASE813 0]

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but if you take your life over a breakup with a girl, yes you are an idiot.

again, you have the whole picture do you? you think that perhaps his life may have contained other issues that may have led to this? if you have a perfect life and do yourself coz a woman dumps you then yes i will agree that is idiotic........... but my guess is that other issues in his years led to this............... you take a snapshot of a life and make a judgement - thats small minded!!!

[willhill 0]

Ah....it's too bad some of us can't be in the same physical room together and discuss this subject. You are by far the most eloquent spokeswoman on your side of this debate. Your posts have made me pause and think. I'll bet if we were in a room, some people would not outright say that this man was an F*ing idiot, especially when faced with his friends. It's the kind of thing that's easy to say when you're pecking on your keyboard, alone, and posting your 'ideas' on an internet forum. But, the recurring problem I have with your argument is that you seem to believe that anyone who hasn't faced depression, in the way that you have, is ipso facto unqualified to form an opinion on the subject that happens to differ from your own. What's funny is I found myself agreeing with much of Ladyskydiver's post. I wonder if you agree that there are grey areas here? No one has a lock on the truth (however that might be defined). I'll admit to being bewildered by the fragmented missive you directed to me. You dismiss people who havn't gone through what you have, yet you don't know what the others to whom you direct your comments have been through.
Clearly, folks here are divided into two sort of existential camps (though Skylark, with his 'tragic hero' thesis, appears to be in the process of forming one of his own). My point is pretty simple: if you're thinking about killing yourself, go get professional help; if you're intent on killing yourself and you happen to be a skydiver, please don't use a dropzone as the stage to act out your final performance in this life.

[StearmanR985 0]

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God and suicide don't go together.

You have your religious perspective...I have another. Again, I say to those who haven't experienced depression so badly that suicide is a solution, "thank God!".

Ah, I misunderstood your original post. Please accept my apologies.

[Michele 1]

Thanks for the note, Will.

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the recurring problem I have with your argument is that you seem to believe that anyone who hasn't faced depression, in the way that you have, is ipso facto unqualified to form an opinion on the subject that happens to differ from your own.

I think what gets me going is that people arbitrarily determine, and blatantly miscatagorize, those folks with depression as "fucking idiots", and that brings up my many years' battle with undiagnosed depression, the battle to recover, and the daily fight to keep it at bay.

You can't understand it the way I do - but you can understand parts of it. However, I don't usually see a willingness to discuss, learn, understand what depression is, for the most part, in any area of society. We are to be shunned, shut away, ignored, perceived as weak, told to "buck up already", and people don't get the part where we simply can't...'cause if we could, we would've, a long time ago. Know what I mean? So there's a deeper level of understanding that I have, which I don't believe, no matter how eloquent or articulate I am or how willing my listener is, that can truly be communicated; like describing freefall to someone who has never been...you can get close, but you can't take them all the way there.

Funny though, 'cause I keep trying to communicate it! LOL.

I am more than willing to listen to an opinion about depression - I have my experience with it, but that's simply my experience. But when it's based in non-factual, arrogant, selfish, refusal to listen to someone who does have the experience (myself or others), and it is nothing other than the bullshit I've heard for years, then I get really frustrated. That frustration materialized in simple, cut and dried arguments, which, as you correctly point out, is not the reality of things in most cases.

So that leaves me dreading conversations in a public forum, where I know it can do the most good, and wishing I had not opened my big fat mouth yet again because it only hurts me and makes me deal with things all over again, and hearing the same comments that people close to me said to me, when the truth is not there - I am not a fucking idiot. I am not weak. I am not irresponsible, a victim, or a bleeding heart. I am a person with depression, who has fought - and won - that fight...but who is very defensive to those who refuse to hear that they may not get the entire picture, that there are grey areas, that there is such disrupted thought patterns that so-called normal people just can't "grok" how it works at the bottom...

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My point is pretty simple: if you're thinking about killing yourself, go get professional help; if you're intent on killing yourself and you happen to be a skydiver, please don't use a dropzone as the stage to act out your final performance in this life.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That is something I completely agree with, and can and will support anyone in.

And if people take nothing else away from this entire thread, please let that be what they do remember....

And Stearman, thanks for understanding what I meant...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~