I didnt learn this in AFF

[sillie1111 0]

Saturday jump # 41, I was jumping a Demo Sabre2 190, that didnt have velcro to stow the access brake lines, the rigger packing stowed them where the toggles stow but on opening the damn things would come out.

I go up to do a three way. We break off at 5,000 Pull by 4,000. Pretty high thank goodness because i have a bad habit of grabbing my toggles once my canopy is open and unstowing them quikly. Well i guess this time i unstowed them to fast and the brake line got stuck around my finger, well this was not one of the things I lerned to deal with in AFF I started thinking. So I started thinking how i was going to fix this! Well i gave it a yank and it just kept getting tighter. Now i have two unstowed brakes one flying at full glide, until i pull it down to half brakes and the other stuck in half brakes. Now at this point im scared out of my mind because I cant get my finger out with one hand, I attempted to bring both toggles to my chest to fly straight and use both hands to free my finger but that doesnt work! So i have to free up my other hand on the working toggle(Not thinking to put the toggle in my teeth or anything I just let it back up like an idiot.) So now im in a spin pretty fast for me because this is only my 5th jump on non student gear!! somewhere around 2800 ft I get my finger out (Which is now Blue) and by 2,500 did my canopy control check and everything was ok, nice flying canopy, My finger is fine but damn I was pretty freaked out.

Now I know that if I was at 2800 ft or lower with a hook knife I would have cut the break line and landed with a rear riser flare and, Keeping in mind that I am jumping a 190 that i am not loading highly at all. I would probably be at a 1:1 on a 150 so I would have been fine with rear risers landing which I practice all the time.

Now my question is that when I got my license a few People told me that I have no need for a hook knife because chances are I would cut the wrong lines or something, that is why students are not allowed them. What do you feel about this. When did you start jumping with a hook knife. Are there any real disadvantages of not having one? Having one?Do you think there would be any other option then cutting the brake line if I could not free my finger?


So After this weekend I am investing in a knife!!! And I will be watching my toggles better when unstowing them

Thanks for the replies!!

~Shelly

[AggieDave 6]

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Pretty high thank goodness because i have a bad habit of grabbing my toggles once my canopy is open and unstowing them quikly.

Why would you do that? I keep my brakes stowed until I've got everything taken care of (slider, chest strap, etc) then I carefully grab my toggles and unstow.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[sillie1111 0]

Im not used to jumping with a slider you can collapse I always forget to do that.

But the reason I unstowed them quickly was because I was pretty far from the airport and was not heading back to it. Instead of using my rear risers to turn I wanted to turn a bit faster so I could be over the run way by 1000 ft so I unstowed them. I also think it being a new canopy also made me feel a but rushed to get into my holding area. I defiantly didnt want to land out on this canopy.

I will paying more attention to detail nex time

~Shelly

[AggieDave 6]

No need to rush things (usually).

When out a little bit on a longer spot, PD canopies tend to do better getting back in about 1/2 brakes anyways, so leaving your brakes set actually can help you out. A climbing rear-riser turn with your brakes set would burn much less altitude and you could turn just as fast then a quick toggle turn anyways.

My point is, slow down, you've got some time, it might keep you out of trouble.

Side question, if you're not confident on landing out with that canopy, are you sure you're ready to jump it?


As for a hookknife? I know I swear by them. Sure, the old line of thought is to cut a line over on a reserve. That's not gonna happen, too hard, too fast to do, but you might need it for other things (as you found out).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[sillie1111 0]

Before this canopy I only jumped the DZ's gear usually a Nav 200 I would have o problem landing that canopy off the airport. I decided to demo a sabre2 190 to be under a different canopy but I was not used to having a canopy with so much glide. 4 out of my 5 landings on that canopy where in my landing area where I wanted to land. It was only the first day of jumping the canopy that I over shot my target by about 25 ft and landed in a corn field, the amount of glide it had caught me a little off guard! Now if I had to land off the airport there are plenty of outs I could land that canopy in because they are pretty big, one being a golf course. But there wher no outs in the direction I was heading. I did Rush and shouldn't have. The very next jump I had a great spot and decided to take things much slower. Did some riser turns and flares, then slowly unstowed my toggles, watching the extra brakes lines carefully!!. I plan to go slower once my canopy is open I def. learned my lesson. Thanks for the reply.

~Shelly

[Staso 0]

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Why would you do that? I keep my brakes stowed until I've got everything taken care of (slider, chest strap, etc) then I carefully grab my toggles and unstow.

that actually might bite you in ass :) on one jump i pulled, got canopy over my head, collapsed my slider, open my visor, loosened chest strap and then pulled my brakes. in a second i discovered that the loop on the brake line got all the way down the gromet on one toggle and it tightened itself down there pretty good. that put my crossfire in the nice spiral, which i compensated with another brake. well, it's hard to deal with the knots when it's freezing in the air (it was witner in MA) and having double gloves, so after spending some time i cut away.

i let go my left hand of the reserve since i had troubles with cutaway and then after i cut away i found my reserve almost on my back because my chest strap was very loose and my harness shifted around. ironically i have javelin odyssey and it originally came without a stopper (fold) on the chest strap and i fixed it myself couple of weeks before my cutaway. since i spent some time looking for my reserve i went pretty much to terminal again when i pull the silver. without that little stopper that i fixed myself i could've possibly fallen out of the harness which would be pretty bad,

so now i pull, collapse my slider, open my visor, unstow my brakes, pull them down and compress my harness together to ease some preassure from the chest strap and only then lossen my chest strap.

but i agree with you that there is no need to unstown the brakes before canopy starts flying.

stan.

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[Reginald 0]

Interesting. I did this on mine too a few times. It scared me for a second but I was able to pull my finger out quickly. I always wear gloves so it slid out just fine after a few yanks. The switch to true lock breaks (which I love BTW) from more traditional caught me off guard a little. The excess break line is just looped through the back. I now pay serious attention to make sure I only have my hand through the toggle and don’t get a finger stuck in the looped break line. I also make sure I stow the breaks so there is not a bunch of break line loose when it should be stowed in the loops.

I’m glad it worked out okay for you; it made my heart race the first time I did it. As for hook knives, I wear 2 but frankly I’m hard pressed to think of a time that I’d use one. However, I want to give myself that option if it comes up.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Mad47 0]

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No need to rush things (usually).

When out a little bit on a longer spot, PD canopies tend to do better getting back in about 1/2 brakes anyways, so leaving your brakes set actually can help you out.

Can also kill you if you ride them unstowed below the hard deck and then realize that that you have a mulfunction and you are too low to cut it away.

[AggieDave 6]

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Can also kill you if you ride them unstowed below the hard deck and then realize that that you have a mulfunction and you are too low to cut it away.

Leaving your brakes stowed all the way to your hard deck is so obviously wrong I didn't mention it. It was directly refering to being in a total rush to pop the toggles after dumping high to turn back to the airport.

The few malfunctions that would involve the brake lines that I can think of, that wouldn't be obvious on opening, wouldn't be too horribly bad, even loaded at my wingloading, though. Chopping something like that below your hard deck *could* be 100% disasterous, though.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cvfd1399 0]

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ironically i have javelin odyssey and it originally came without a stopper (fold)

It wasn't folded and sewn!!!!
I hope you caught it before you jumped it right?
Did you call them and let them know that it was shipped not sewn?

[Kris 0]

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It wasn't folded and sewn!!!!
I hope you caught it before you jumped it right?
Did you call them and let them know that it was shipped not sewn?

Javelins don't come with a sewn stopper because, IIRC, of the webbing thickness in relation to the buckle.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Staso 0]

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It wasn't folded and sewn!!!!
I hope you caught it before you jumped it right?
Did you call them and let them know that it was shipped not sewn?

Javelins don't come with a sewn stopper because, IIRC, of the webbing thickness in relation to the buckle.

that's true, but it's a different story when the end of the strap it at the buckle.

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[PhreeZone 15]

Javelins have 2 types of chest straps. Wide and narrow. The Wide ones (type VIII) have the fold back sewn in, the narrow ones do not. Aubery at Aerodyne showed me how to make the type XVII webbing have a stopper and not a fold back. Slick design.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Push 0]

Would simply letting go of the toggle have fixed the knot?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[sillie1111 0]

No i tried to let go of the toggles. The knot was so tight it would not budge and when it initialy happened My finger ended up pressed up against the silver grommet right above where the toggles stow. It took a lot of force to get it loose enough to slip my finger out. It was blue and you could see a indentation where the line had been for a few hours after.

~Shelly

[Push 0]

I see, thank you for the explanation.

In this case, perhaps it would have worked to pull your finger down maybe 4 inches below the ring, grab the line right at the ring so that tension around your finger is released, quickly yank your finger out and go back to level flight?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[sillie1111 0]

That is how i eventually got my finger out. But even with all the tension released from the line the knot was still winched around pretty good I eventualy got it out at a safe altitude with a minor heart attack of course!!

~Shelly

[Push 0]

Sweet. Gonna add that one to my bag of tricks. Thanks for the learning experience, and good job on surviving

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[sundevil777 94]

I grab the toggles without even looking at them (as I'm checking for traffic). I also stow the brake line excess so that it cannot be hanging down in the area that I will grab.

I kinda like having full toggle control as soon as possible to avoid others with a full toggle turn if needed.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[masher 1]

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Pretty high thank goodness because i have a bad habit of grabbing my toggles once my canopy is open and unstowing them quikly.

Why would you do that? I keep my brakes stowed until I've got everything taken care of (slider, chest strap, etc) then I carefully grab my toggles and unstow.

I used to do that. Open, clear my airspace, collapse slider, pull it down, loosen chest strap and unstow toggles.

Then a previous discussion on here changed my mind. It was referring to locked brakes and the possibilty of having to chop a canopy.

Now I open, clear my airspace, collapse slider, pull it down, unstow toggles and loosen chest strap.

Just my 2c....

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[firstime 0]

anyone who tells you "you have NO reason to have a hook knife" is a complete asshole. It's a $10.00 survival tool.. wheather it works or not........ DUH!!!
I do enjoy these forums but I am surprised at the ppl who would rather shoot a hole in something rather
than offer a rational answer. We don't give answers
(me especially) but offer what we have been thru.
This forum is a great tool for all of us, stop the
analyical bullshit and get to point. I am not by any
means a seasoned skydiver but a seasoned person
qualified to say the above .

[AggieDave 6]

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anyone who tells you "you have NO reason to have a hook knife" is a complete asshole. It's a $10.00 survival tool.. wheather it works or not........ DUH!!!
I do enjoy these forums but I am surprised at the ppl who would rather shoot a hole in something rather

Something I meant to mention earlier...


Please stay away from those cheap orange plastic hook knives. You might as well not have one. It will break under a load and it will most likely slice your hand.

I have a couple hook knives, Jack the Ripper and a couple all aluminum ones as well.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[masher 1]

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anyone who tells you "you have NO reason to have a hook knife" is a complete asshole. It's a $10.00 survival tool.. wheather it works or not........ DUH!!!.

Or an $80 survival tool. I got me an all metal one. Not one of the crappy plastic ones that Mr Dave alludes to.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[Bosveld 0]

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Well i guess this time i unstowed them to fast and the brake line got stuck around my finger,

This happenned to me once, but luckily the brake line looped around my finger right against the toggle. So it didn't influence the canopy flight too much. I treid to get the line loose, but did not succeed. I had to land with the loop around my finger, and landed it fine.
You can imagine what my finger looked like after a whole canpoy ride. It looked like those cartoons when a cartoon character gets hit on the finger with a hammer. It was at least 3 times it's normal size.
It recovered within an hour or so.
I learned my lesson! Pay close attention when loosening your toggles not to have excess brake line wrapped around your finger.
It hurts believe me, and it's not a lot of fun.

Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, will be true!

[KolinskyDC 0]

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Saturday jump # 41, I was jumping a Demo Sabre2 190, that didnt have velcro to stow the access brake lines, the rigger packing stowed them where the toggles stow but on opening the damn things would come out.

I go up to do a three way. We break off at 5,000 Pull by 4,000. Pretty high thank goodness because i have a bad habit of grabbing my toggles once my canopy is open and unstowing them quikly. Well i guess this time i unstowed them to fast and the brake line got stuck around my finger, well this was not one of the things I lerned to deal with in AFF I started thinking. So I started thinking how i was going to fix this! Well i gave it a yank and it just kept getting tighter. Now i have two unstowed brakes one flying at full glide, until i pull it down to half brakes and the other stuck in half brakes. Now at this point im scared out of my mind because I cant get my finger out with one hand, I attempted to bring both toggles to my chest to fly straight and use both hands to free my finger but that doesnt work! So i have to free up my other hand on the working toggle(Not thinking to put the toggle in my teeth or anything I just let it back up like an idiot.) So now im in a spin pretty fast for me because this is only my 5th jump on non student gear!! somewhere around 2800 ft I get my finger out (Which is now Blue) and by 2,500 did my canopy control check and everything was ok, nice flying canopy, My finger is fine but damn I was pretty freaked out.

Now I know that if I was at 2800 ft or lower with a hook knife I would have cut the break line and landed with a rear riser flare and, Keeping in mind that I am jumping a 190 that i am not loading highly at all. I would probably be at a 1:1 on a 150 so I would have been fine with rear risers landing which I practice all the time.

Now my question is that when I got my license a few People told me that I have no need for a hook knife because chances are I would cut the wrong lines or something, that is why students are not allowed them. What do you feel about this. When did you start jumping with a hook knife. Are there any real disadvantages of not having one? Having one?Do you think there would be any other option then cutting the brake line if I could not free my finger?


So After this weekend I am investing in a knife!!! And I will be watching my toggles better when unstowing them

Hey little sis, that's what you get for not asking me to jump with you guys Sat!!! Just kidding...

You handled this incident a lot better than you have past incidents, very proud of you!

Melissa

"May the best of your past be the worst of your future"

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