elfanie 0 #1 February 9, 2004 Ron? Billvon? AggieDave? Betsy? Anyone feel like giving opinions and helping a newbie with education? Not this past weekend but the weekend before...I had something "strange" happen to me on landing and I actually got video of it... Let me explain strange...strange as in I've never experienced/felt this before....not that it's unexplainable or something. background information: exit weight is about 160 and I'm flying a sabre 190. Winds were a little inconsistant that day, keeping around 12-15mph, but there were a few irregular gusts that would occur to kick it up to 18-19MPH. I'm coming in for my landing..everything is going pretty much exactly as it has every other time. As I was coming in, I was slightly cross wind so I gave a very gentle right toggle input slowly to about ear-level (see link to the landing video...notice that when the video begins, both hands are in full flight. I move my right hand down to about my ear and hold it for a couple of seconds until the canopy responds and then I release it). I've done this countless times...slight slow corrections making sure to go to 'full flight' before I'm really close to the ground.... this time was different in that as my canopy responded to my right toggle input, it felt like I flared it. I felt the canopy slow down just like I went into half-brakes. As soon as I felt that...I brought my toggle back up (notice the saguaros in the background and you'll see that when I bring my toggle back up, I'm still relatively high) As I went back to full flight, my canopy DOVE....lost all life...and I punched the toggles to attempt to flare...nothing. I got NO response from the canopy when I flared and thumped into the ground pretty good. (believe it or not...the worst thing that hurt was the bottom of my feet which stung. Good way to break a leg. Glad I didn't...) But...why would my canopy have responded that way? did I catch a gust at the wrong time? Was my input of my right toggle...was that something that would cause my canopy to 'flare' in those winds? In the video, you'll see my canopy "plane out" and then dive. I've watched it many many times to try to figure out what happened...what I did to cause it...how to prevent it from happening again.. Any input...advice...ideas...opinions..? this is an educational opportunity here. Landing Video (edited to add: In the beginning of the video, you can see the wind pushing my canopy a little to the left...you'll see it sort of "jerk...jerk..." a little to the left, so the right toggle was to straighten me back out and counteract the pushing of the wind...just another FYI to point out..) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #2 February 9, 2004 I'm guessing it had something to do with the wind and how light you are loading your canopy. At the DZ I used to jump at, they had a strict rule of winds over 15 grounded students. At such a light wingloading... you may want to consider grounding yourself when the winds are getting that high and gusty. "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #3 February 9, 2004 Something similar happened to me at the Bangkok demo. I hit a rotor just as I was flaring. We had a fixed landing direction, so my plan was to land in the 'correct' direction and flare turn into the wind. My canopy (1.4 to 1) didn't respond to the flare and thus I couldn't turn. Ended up PLFing; no damage. Sounds like you caught an asymmetric updraft that tried to turn your canopy. You responded with toggle, which combined with the updraft, gave you essentially a flare. When you let off on the toggle, you got the usual dive when you release brakes, plus you may have caught the "other side" of the gust (rotors especially have two sides, one updraft and one downdraft or one left and one right.) Best defense against these things is to consider the wind carefully before you jump. Light winds rarely generate rotors, and turbulence is a lot less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #4 February 9, 2004 QuoteI'm guessing it had something to do with the wind and how light you are loading your canopy. At the DZ I used to jump at, they had a strict rule of winds over 15 grounded students. At such a light wingloading... you may want to consider grounding yourself when the winds are getting that high and gusty. *nods* and I have done that more times than I have been happy with...anytime there are winds above 15 I end up grounding myself. (I am not a student, so I CAN jump in higher winds..I just choose not to for safety reasons) However...when I say irratic gusts going to 18-19MPH..I mean, a select few ALL DAY. The winds were generally speaking staying <15 (or around 15). I don't mean that we were getting gusts every couple of minutes...I mean a select few times all day. I am NOT one that is afraid to ground myself. In fact, a few weeks ago I took a friend out for her very first tandem...in fact, I paid for it! Yet winds were steady around 17-19MPH the entire morning. As much as I wanted - no, as much as I ACHED - to jump with her (ride up and jump...not WITH her), I still grounded myself and didn't jump the entire day. And you'll see that I was getting good penetration and forward motion under canopy wasn't a problem (and I jumped 3 more times that day without even a hint of an incident)... which is why I wasn't sure if I'd caught one of those rogue gusts? Or if it was something that I'd done to cause it...some sort of canopy input... but honestly...I'm usually very very conservative about the wind..and this isn't a response to defend myself, but more to make certain that I expressed clearly the wind conditions and I'm not misunderstood. It's highly possible I caught a rogue guest... but just want to assure that I do not jump in high winds...I ground myself. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #5 February 9, 2004 It looks like your canopy was stopped by a gust of wind. When this happens, your weight will swing forward (your canopy stops, and you keep going) which will pitch the nose up, as if you had flared. When the gust subsides, your canopy wants to recover to full flight. To do this, your weight needs to re-center itslef under the canopy. As your weight swings back, it will go beyond the center position, into a position behind the canopy, which results in a short dive. Eventually, your weight will come forward, to center, at which point your canopy will be in full flight. Here's your problem: In order for your canopy to pitch up, and arrest your decent (flare), your weight needs to be in front of the canopy. Your weight had swung behind the canopy, and needed extra time to reach the desired position in front of the canopy. Because you were so close to the ground, you didn't have that extra time, and you landed without much reduction in your decent rate. There's really not much you can do in that situation. Keeping your canopy in full flight for the majority of your final approach is a good idea. You had made a toggle correction, which may or may not have caused to problem, but that in concert with a wind gust, made have made the problem worse. A slight cross wind landing is not a bad thing, and is preferable to last minute corrections. Also, a PLF is always a good idea. I hope you reviewed this video with instructors at your DZ the day it happened. I would defer to thier comments if they are different that mine, as I am just going off a video. Good luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #6 February 9, 2004 Quote Sounds like you caught an asymmetric updraft that tried to turn your canopy. You responded with toggle, which combined with the updraft, gave you essentially a flare. When you let off on the toggle, you got the usual dive when you release brakes, plus you may have caught the "other side" of the gust (rotors especially have two sides, one updraft and one downdraft or one left and one right.) Best defense against these things is to consider the wind carefully before you jump. Light winds rarely generate rotors, and turbulence is a lot less. I can see that having happened...*nods* that's highly possible that it's what happened. But then my question is...what's the best response to this situation? You're already under canopy...you catch that rotor (is that the same as an updraft/gust?)...and you feel your canopy shift...what is the best way to respond to that? just allow your canopy to be blown and prepare for a cross-wind landing? How can you tell when an attempted correction is going to cause a flare effect? If you find yourself in that position....what is the best way to respond to it so that you don't end up "oof-ing" into the ground? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #7 February 9, 2004 Quote I hope you reviewed this video with instructors at your DZ the day it happened. I would defer to thier comments if they are different that mine, as I am just going off a video. Good luck. I looked it over with the coach who did my canopy control course...but it was on the itty bitty camcorder screen, so you couldn't really see much...so it was hard for him to see anything. (ie. the coaches weren't all out there watching...so they are going off of a video as well. ) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #8 February 9, 2004 If I took no external input I would say that the flare was a little late. That being said, having winds that were a little higher and maybe a bit turbulant what biilvon said seems to be a very good explanation. Rotors and turbulance are unpredictable but also sometimes symmetrical. Planes experience something like what you may have experienced during wind shear. Lift on one side and being pushed down on the other side. I don't think you did anything wrong under canopy. You may have just caught some bad air. Keep an eye on the winds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #9 February 9, 2004 QuoteQuote I can see that having happened...*nods* that's highly possible that it's what happened. But then my question is...what's the best response to this situation? I think ( my 0.02 cent ) that for each canopy and wing load there is a point of no return ,meaning if for some reason you start with the flare you have to contineus or at least keep it there and in no way let the canopy go to a full glide ( you just don´t have the altitude for it ) is that hight 10 ft or 30 ft I think it depend on how strong the down draft is. glad you okAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #10 February 9, 2004 Quote I think ( my 0.02 cent ) that for each canopy and wing load there is a point of no return ,meaning if for some reason you start with the flare you have to contineus or at least keep it there and in no way let the canopy go to a full glide ( you just don´t have the altitude for it ) is that hight 10 ft or 30 ft I think it depend on how strong the down draft is. glad you ok *nodsnods* Problem is that I didn't 'flare'... I was trying to do a gentle right 'nudge' to counteract the shift the wind gave me... my canopy then acted like I'd flared...as in, it planed out...and by the time I realized what had happened I was diving and the ground was rushing up to meet me and I THEN "flared" (a bit higher than I normally would...but even that had NO effect). In otherwords...if I 'started the flare' with my slight right-toggle input...I didn't realize it. but even if I had realized it...lets say I did a right toggle tomorrow and felt the same 'lift'....how do I "hold the flare"?? Keep the right toggle down? That would turn me as it dives into the ground (and then people would be saying, "you dumbell idiot! Why were you turning so low!") and I would add to your opinion (which is a good one!) that it would also vary not only according to canopy and wing loading..but also wind conditions. Because I"ve done these gentle turns many many many times coming in and NEVER had anything like this happen... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lauras 0 #11 February 9, 2004 Quote Because I"ve done these gentle turns many many many times This is a little nit-picky, but you haven't performed these turns many, many, many times - not in the grand scheme of things anyway - and you're still relatively inexperienced. All that said, it's not a bad thing to PLF if you're encountering something new and peculiar on landing. I watched a jumper with over 15,000 skydives PLF last week due to some squirrely winds. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Glad you're ok. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #12 February 9, 2004 Quote This is a little nit-picky, but you haven't performed these turns many, many, many times - not in the grand scheme of things anyway - and you're still relatively inexperienced. *laugh* True enough. Many times depending on your perspective and point of view. Many times from the point of view of "most of my landings". not many times in numbers from the point of view of someone with 9,000 jumps. =) What I meant is that this isn't something new that I just did on this one jump... Out of my 68 jumps..I've probably done this on 50+ or so of them... I didn't mean that to sound like I thought I had "all this experience"... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites amir1967 0 #13 February 9, 2004 The only thing I ca add is ,when you get a gust of wind let say 20 mi/hr at 20 ft and right after that dead air for 2 sc (no wind) your canopy will go to flare mode (with or without the small turn that you made), then the canopy will dive hard to gain its full glid air speed and the dead air will only make it dive harder. I think gentel flar as soon as the canopy begin to dive is your best option (it won´t be prety )but that say that kind of situation can also deflat a canopy , and than maybe plf is the only option leftAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites councilman24 36 #14 February 9, 2004 I can't seem to open the video at work but I don't see anyone asking if you were landing downwind of a building, trees, hill, etc. (Maybe they know already.) But, rotors and turbulence from buildings or other obstructions is hard for newbies to remember. Where I jump almost by definition there is going to be turbulance, either from the hanger, tree lines, or slight hills. It not uncommon to have the bottom drop out. My response, is to usually flare hard and PLF. I routinely pick where I land on our small DZ based on the wind direction and obstacles.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #15 February 9, 2004 QuoteI can't seem to open the video at work but I don't see anyone asking if you were landing downwind of a building, trees, hill, etc. (Maybe they know already.) But, rotors and turbulence from buildings or other obstructions is hard for newbies to remember. The only turbulance-maker is the hanger...and that wasn't a factor in this landing due to the direction of the wind. Quote Where I jump almost by definition there is going to be turbulance, either from the hanger, tree lines, or slight hills. It not uncommon to have the bottom drop out. My response, is to usually flare hard and PLF. I routinely pick where I land on our small DZ based on the wind direction and obstacles. We're very lucky here in that there aren't really tree lines or hills or things like that (if you do end up seeing the video, you'll see shrubby desert behind me. Makes this DZ VERY EASY to land at because even if you're out...you don't really have to "look" for an outlanding...everything is a potential landing area around here.. There is a hanger that can cause turbulance...but the wind wasn't coming over the hanger (it rarely ever does) and when it does I usually land on the very edge of the landing area (which is as far away from the building as you can get)....going so far as to even landing a little in the desert so as to not get close to the hanger and get turbulance (I don't mind walking a little further..walking never hurt anyone) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #16 February 9, 2004 Honestly, it looks very much like you caught the edge of a thermal or maybe a weird wind/wind gust, as you left that, your canopy dove to regain airspeed. Without being there to know the conditions of the day, though, its hard to really tell for sure. You did the right thing, flare and PLF. These things happen, I got caught by the back end of a gust this weekend with a tandem, I burried the toggles and we both softly plopped down (thank god), so trust me, it happens.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JYorkster 0 #17 February 9, 2004 In watching the video, it does seem that your right toggle input was deeper and faster than you describe. You may have meant to only pull the toggle to your ear, but from the angle in the video, you can no longer see your right hand. That means it had to have been at least past your shoulder. Making a reaction that quickly and that deeply could easily have caused the reaction seen in the video. That is not to say that you didn't hit some kind of weird turbulence, but your input also had something to do with the dive. Just make sure you don't over-react to situations close to the ground. This is what happens to many experienced jumpers who turn low to avoid an obstacle...they mean to have a very small input, but over-react and end up turning themselves into the ground. Obviously, it wasn't that bad in your case, but control the urge now, and it will pay off later. Rock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #18 February 9, 2004 QuoteIn watching the video, it does seem that your right toggle input was deeper and faster than you describe. You may have meant to only pull the toggle to your ear, but from the angle in the video, you can no longer see your right hand. That means it had to have been at least past your shoulder. Nope...right by my ear. If you pause it..you can see my elbow sticking out by my shoulder... QuoteMaking a reaction that quickly and that deeply could easily have caused the reaction seen in the video. Wouldn't pulling a toggle deeply that close to the ground make the canopy TURN and thus diving you into the ground? It wouldn't plane you out as if you flared, right? QuoteThat is not to say that you didn't hit some kind of weird turbulence, but your input also had something to do with the dive. Just make sure you don't over-react to situations close to the ground. This is what happens to many experienced jumpers who turn low to avoid an obstacle...they mean to have a very small input, but over-react and end up turning themselves into the ground. Obviously, it wasn't that bad in your case, but control the urge now, and it will pay off later. Rock *nods* I had my first 'object fixation' this past weekend... I was coming in fine...and darn it...there's a cone...stop staring at the cone!...Object Fixation! ...Stop staring at the cone!...Lordy, you're still staring at the cone...stop staring at the *bop* Aw crap...hit the cone. but darn it...I would rather hit the cone than try to steer around it. but this landing, as you can see, wasn't that sort of thing. I wasn't going to hit anything...wasn't trying to steer away anything...wasn't even trying to get into the wind...just trying to keep my canopy pointed the direction it was already pointed as the wind nudged me to the left.. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crutch 0 #19 February 10, 2004 If you want to know the truth, I think what Dave said is what happened. When the wind is gusting sometimes, it doesn't necessarily need an object up wind to cause rotors. Your landing is very similar to what we feel in the stadiums sometimes. You start floating, then all of the sudden the bottom falls out of it. Someone earlier talked about how you swing underneath the caonpy because of the surges, which is exactly what caused your hard landing. The way I try to explain it is in terms of energy. When the canopy floated/flatten out (about the time you are correcting to the right) it lost most of its energy (this was a product of the conditions, not your toggle input). The canopy tries to regain this energy by diving towards the ground, but when you flared it hadn't yet regained enough of that energy to react to the toggle inputs. Okay, now to answer the big question, what to do? Well, one is having a higher wingloading, as this tends to lessen the effects of these things on your canopy. Second, I actually front riser through this effect when jumping into the stadium, although at your level ~68 jumps, it is not really what i would recommend. So, I say just plan for it now on windy days, you understand how it feels when it happens, be ready to do a PLF, don't try to stand it up. Well, that was my two cents worth!blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DBCOOPER 1 #20 February 10, 2004 The only time I have seen that happens is when the winds are squirrly.I've see a couple of instances and they were a lot more violent then yours was.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites helldog 0 #21 February 11, 2004 Was wondering if a braked turn would of been more appropriate at that altitude. The combination of the turbulance and letting the right toggle all the way back up seemed to exaserbate the problem. Would someone more experienced please comment on this. (good learning video, thanks for posting steph) Blue ones Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #22 February 11, 2004 QuoteWas wondering if a braked turn would of been more appropriate at that altitude. The combination of the turbulance and letting the right toggle all the way back up seemed to exaserbate the problem. Would someone more experienced please comment on this. (good learning video, thanks for posting steph) Blue ones Jim Thanks Jim...had a blast jumping with you on Sunday! Too bad we couldn't get a bigger group together... As for a braked turn...I didn't know that I was going to hit a gust until I was already toggle-down (unfortunately) so it's not like I was really 'turning' (as in trying to avoid an obsticle or turning into the wind)...more trying to maintain heading as I felt my canopy shifting to the left... so probably the more appropriate question would be...when I felt the 'lift' of the wind (whether that was due to a gust, or due to my right toggle input or whatever)...would it at that point have been better to lower my left toggle to meet my right (in half brakes) rather than letting my right toggle up to full flight? Yet another question...if I HAD gone to half brakes and attempted a flat turn and had caught that gust...what would the result have been? What would have happened? (hey Jim...did you see me bop that cone on Sunday? I couldn't remember if you were out there or not then..) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pds 0 #23 February 11, 2004 i watched the vid and was wondering if you remember what altitude you were at when you started your turn?namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elfanie 0 #24 February 11, 2004 Quotei watched the vid and was wondering if you remember what altitude you were at when you started your turn? *thinks* Ya know..I didn't look at my altimeter (was too busy looking at the horizon, ground, flags, etc)... but my GUESS (I actually tried to "measure" on the video...knowing how tall I am, measuring from myself to the ground to approximate)...my guess is that I started about 70 feet off the ground I brought my right toggle to my ear... and about 40 feet off the ground I let it up. You can get a decent idea of scale by looking at the saguaros in the background. the saguaros are probably 30-40 feet tall in the background (more or less. Saguaros average in height from 10-50 feet, and those are decent adult size saguaro cactus...I've walked past them and they are probably about 30-40 feet tall) that's my best guess. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,478 #25 February 11, 2004 >*thinks* Ya know..I didn't look at my altimeter (was too busy >looking at the horizon, ground, flags, etc)... Good! Below about 1000 feet, your altimeter becomes less and less useful (it's not accurate to more than about 300 feet) and your attention should be on other traffic, wind socks etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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elfanie 0 #10 February 9, 2004 Quote I think ( my 0.02 cent ) that for each canopy and wing load there is a point of no return ,meaning if for some reason you start with the flare you have to contineus or at least keep it there and in no way let the canopy go to a full glide ( you just don´t have the altitude for it ) is that hight 10 ft or 30 ft I think it depend on how strong the down draft is. glad you ok *nodsnods* Problem is that I didn't 'flare'... I was trying to do a gentle right 'nudge' to counteract the shift the wind gave me... my canopy then acted like I'd flared...as in, it planed out...and by the time I realized what had happened I was diving and the ground was rushing up to meet me and I THEN "flared" (a bit higher than I normally would...but even that had NO effect). In otherwords...if I 'started the flare' with my slight right-toggle input...I didn't realize it. but even if I had realized it...lets say I did a right toggle tomorrow and felt the same 'lift'....how do I "hold the flare"?? Keep the right toggle down? That would turn me as it dives into the ground (and then people would be saying, "you dumbell idiot! Why were you turning so low!") and I would add to your opinion (which is a good one!) that it would also vary not only according to canopy and wing loading..but also wind conditions. Because I"ve done these gentle turns many many many times coming in and NEVER had anything like this happen... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauras 0 #11 February 9, 2004 Quote Because I"ve done these gentle turns many many many times This is a little nit-picky, but you haven't performed these turns many, many, many times - not in the grand scheme of things anyway - and you're still relatively inexperienced. All that said, it's not a bad thing to PLF if you're encountering something new and peculiar on landing. I watched a jumper with over 15,000 skydives PLF last week due to some squirrely winds. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Glad you're ok. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #12 February 9, 2004 Quote This is a little nit-picky, but you haven't performed these turns many, many, many times - not in the grand scheme of things anyway - and you're still relatively inexperienced. *laugh* True enough. Many times depending on your perspective and point of view. Many times from the point of view of "most of my landings". not many times in numbers from the point of view of someone with 9,000 jumps. =) What I meant is that this isn't something new that I just did on this one jump... Out of my 68 jumps..I've probably done this on 50+ or so of them... I didn't mean that to sound like I thought I had "all this experience"... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #13 February 9, 2004 The only thing I ca add is ,when you get a gust of wind let say 20 mi/hr at 20 ft and right after that dead air for 2 sc (no wind) your canopy will go to flare mode (with or without the small turn that you made), then the canopy will dive hard to gain its full glid air speed and the dead air will only make it dive harder. I think gentel flar as soon as the canopy begin to dive is your best option (it won´t be prety )but that say that kind of situation can also deflat a canopy , and than maybe plf is the only option leftAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #14 February 9, 2004 I can't seem to open the video at work but I don't see anyone asking if you were landing downwind of a building, trees, hill, etc. (Maybe they know already.) But, rotors and turbulence from buildings or other obstructions is hard for newbies to remember. Where I jump almost by definition there is going to be turbulance, either from the hanger, tree lines, or slight hills. It not uncommon to have the bottom drop out. My response, is to usually flare hard and PLF. I routinely pick where I land on our small DZ based on the wind direction and obstacles.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #15 February 9, 2004 QuoteI can't seem to open the video at work but I don't see anyone asking if you were landing downwind of a building, trees, hill, etc. (Maybe they know already.) But, rotors and turbulence from buildings or other obstructions is hard for newbies to remember. The only turbulance-maker is the hanger...and that wasn't a factor in this landing due to the direction of the wind. Quote Where I jump almost by definition there is going to be turbulance, either from the hanger, tree lines, or slight hills. It not uncommon to have the bottom drop out. My response, is to usually flare hard and PLF. I routinely pick where I land on our small DZ based on the wind direction and obstacles. We're very lucky here in that there aren't really tree lines or hills or things like that (if you do end up seeing the video, you'll see shrubby desert behind me. Makes this DZ VERY EASY to land at because even if you're out...you don't really have to "look" for an outlanding...everything is a potential landing area around here.. There is a hanger that can cause turbulance...but the wind wasn't coming over the hanger (it rarely ever does) and when it does I usually land on the very edge of the landing area (which is as far away from the building as you can get)....going so far as to even landing a little in the desert so as to not get close to the hanger and get turbulance (I don't mind walking a little further..walking never hurt anyone) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 February 9, 2004 Honestly, it looks very much like you caught the edge of a thermal or maybe a weird wind/wind gust, as you left that, your canopy dove to regain airspeed. Without being there to know the conditions of the day, though, its hard to really tell for sure. You did the right thing, flare and PLF. These things happen, I got caught by the back end of a gust this weekend with a tandem, I burried the toggles and we both softly plopped down (thank god), so trust me, it happens.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JYorkster 0 #17 February 9, 2004 In watching the video, it does seem that your right toggle input was deeper and faster than you describe. You may have meant to only pull the toggle to your ear, but from the angle in the video, you can no longer see your right hand. That means it had to have been at least past your shoulder. Making a reaction that quickly and that deeply could easily have caused the reaction seen in the video. That is not to say that you didn't hit some kind of weird turbulence, but your input also had something to do with the dive. Just make sure you don't over-react to situations close to the ground. This is what happens to many experienced jumpers who turn low to avoid an obstacle...they mean to have a very small input, but over-react and end up turning themselves into the ground. Obviously, it wasn't that bad in your case, but control the urge now, and it will pay off later. Rock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #18 February 9, 2004 QuoteIn watching the video, it does seem that your right toggle input was deeper and faster than you describe. You may have meant to only pull the toggle to your ear, but from the angle in the video, you can no longer see your right hand. That means it had to have been at least past your shoulder. Nope...right by my ear. If you pause it..you can see my elbow sticking out by my shoulder... QuoteMaking a reaction that quickly and that deeply could easily have caused the reaction seen in the video. Wouldn't pulling a toggle deeply that close to the ground make the canopy TURN and thus diving you into the ground? It wouldn't plane you out as if you flared, right? QuoteThat is not to say that you didn't hit some kind of weird turbulence, but your input also had something to do with the dive. Just make sure you don't over-react to situations close to the ground. This is what happens to many experienced jumpers who turn low to avoid an obstacle...they mean to have a very small input, but over-react and end up turning themselves into the ground. Obviously, it wasn't that bad in your case, but control the urge now, and it will pay off later. Rock *nods* I had my first 'object fixation' this past weekend... I was coming in fine...and darn it...there's a cone...stop staring at the cone!...Object Fixation! ...Stop staring at the cone!...Lordy, you're still staring at the cone...stop staring at the *bop* Aw crap...hit the cone. but darn it...I would rather hit the cone than try to steer around it. but this landing, as you can see, wasn't that sort of thing. I wasn't going to hit anything...wasn't trying to steer away anything...wasn't even trying to get into the wind...just trying to keep my canopy pointed the direction it was already pointed as the wind nudged me to the left.. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #19 February 10, 2004 If you want to know the truth, I think what Dave said is what happened. When the wind is gusting sometimes, it doesn't necessarily need an object up wind to cause rotors. Your landing is very similar to what we feel in the stadiums sometimes. You start floating, then all of the sudden the bottom falls out of it. Someone earlier talked about how you swing underneath the caonpy because of the surges, which is exactly what caused your hard landing. The way I try to explain it is in terms of energy. When the canopy floated/flatten out (about the time you are correcting to the right) it lost most of its energy (this was a product of the conditions, not your toggle input). The canopy tries to regain this energy by diving towards the ground, but when you flared it hadn't yet regained enough of that energy to react to the toggle inputs. Okay, now to answer the big question, what to do? Well, one is having a higher wingloading, as this tends to lessen the effects of these things on your canopy. Second, I actually front riser through this effect when jumping into the stadium, although at your level ~68 jumps, it is not really what i would recommend. So, I say just plan for it now on windy days, you understand how it feels when it happens, be ready to do a PLF, don't try to stand it up. Well, that was my two cents worth!blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #20 February 10, 2004 The only time I have seen that happens is when the winds are squirrly.I've see a couple of instances and they were a lot more violent then yours was.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helldog 0 #21 February 11, 2004 Was wondering if a braked turn would of been more appropriate at that altitude. The combination of the turbulance and letting the right toggle all the way back up seemed to exaserbate the problem. Would someone more experienced please comment on this. (good learning video, thanks for posting steph) Blue ones Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #22 February 11, 2004 QuoteWas wondering if a braked turn would of been more appropriate at that altitude. The combination of the turbulance and letting the right toggle all the way back up seemed to exaserbate the problem. Would someone more experienced please comment on this. (good learning video, thanks for posting steph) Blue ones Jim Thanks Jim...had a blast jumping with you on Sunday! Too bad we couldn't get a bigger group together... As for a braked turn...I didn't know that I was going to hit a gust until I was already toggle-down (unfortunately) so it's not like I was really 'turning' (as in trying to avoid an obsticle or turning into the wind)...more trying to maintain heading as I felt my canopy shifting to the left... so probably the more appropriate question would be...when I felt the 'lift' of the wind (whether that was due to a gust, or due to my right toggle input or whatever)...would it at that point have been better to lower my left toggle to meet my right (in half brakes) rather than letting my right toggle up to full flight? Yet another question...if I HAD gone to half brakes and attempted a flat turn and had caught that gust...what would the result have been? What would have happened? (hey Jim...did you see me bop that cone on Sunday? I couldn't remember if you were out there or not then..) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #23 February 11, 2004 i watched the vid and was wondering if you remember what altitude you were at when you started your turn?namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #24 February 11, 2004 Quotei watched the vid and was wondering if you remember what altitude you were at when you started your turn? *thinks* Ya know..I didn't look at my altimeter (was too busy looking at the horizon, ground, flags, etc)... but my GUESS (I actually tried to "measure" on the video...knowing how tall I am, measuring from myself to the ground to approximate)...my guess is that I started about 70 feet off the ground I brought my right toggle to my ear... and about 40 feet off the ground I let it up. You can get a decent idea of scale by looking at the saguaros in the background. the saguaros are probably 30-40 feet tall in the background (more or less. Saguaros average in height from 10-50 feet, and those are decent adult size saguaro cactus...I've walked past them and they are probably about 30-40 feet tall) that's my best guess. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #25 February 11, 2004 >*thinks* Ya know..I didn't look at my altimeter (was too busy >looking at the horizon, ground, flags, etc)... Good! Below about 1000 feet, your altimeter becomes less and less useful (it's not accurate to more than about 300 feet) and your attention should be on other traffic, wind socks etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
